Catholic Mysticism

[Tobias65]

I’m not paranoid, I’m terrified…

Throughout history mankind has gone to war against each other using a similar logic to what you present here. “We cannot trust them.” “They are not like us.” “They have no souls so we can enslave them and use them like cattle.” “They are evil in God’s sight so we can exterminate them completely.”

This is simple human nature. I’m sure each situation was justified with plenty of examples. “The only good Indian is a dead Indian” was supported with just as many real life experiences as “White men speak with forked tongue.”

I am most certainly not trying to suggest that anyone here is a racist! I’m simply trying to point out that the same attitudes that supported racism in the past are still present in the way people think of the spirit world. If we assume (for no particular reason) that absolutely every encounter we have with this other realm is filled with deceit, how is that not paranoia? Or if we believe that we are completely unable to navigate our perceptions of it even if God Himself leads us through the valley of the shadow of death… isn’t that a lack of faith?

What I like about the Catholic doctrine of the Communion of the Saints is that this fear of the spiritual realm is abolished when it comes to dealing with members of God’s Kingdom. Most non-Catholics I’ve talked to are paranoid of anything said to them by both angels and saints in heaven. Heck, they won’t even obey God Himself if He were to speak to them; unless what He says lines up exactly word for word with what they understand the Bible to say!

I think if we are going to fear for anybody’s eternal safety, we should take a closer look at the thousands upon thousands that make an idol out of the Bible.

 

[Semangelof]

The Word of God stands against you and you allude that I am prejudice against demons?

God is not a liar as you claim. He does not with one hand tell you he detests the practice of talking to the dead and with the other hand lead you to do it.

No! those are two different hands from two different things! See which hand you can let go of, the one you can’t is the devils.

I think if we are going to fear for anybody’s eternal safety, we should take a closer look at the thousands upon thousands that make an idol out of the Bible.

I can see it has proceeded farther than I first thought. Soon enough you will feel your soul ripped down to an abyss. Even from there you can pray to God for help. Do it as much as you can. Even if you cannot speak, groan to God.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Heck, they won’t even obey God Himself if He were to speak to them; unless what He says lines up exactly word for word with what they understand the Bible to say!

I have found, through my Dark Night process, that when I truly surrendered to the Holy Spirit, I was not able to discern what spirits were handling me until after I saw what they had me do, and then once I saw what I was doing, I was in the position to examine it and optionally judge it. In some cases, it risked my very life and that wasn’t the worst, one particular time at about 3 in the morning. In other cases, they were so evil and some of them involved the Church. Several months later, after I was healed and in the kingdom, I told my pastor that I had done things that were so evil that I will never confess them even to a priest whom I’ll never see again. He understood, so he let me confess by category and nature of the sins without full details. Of course I no longer do these things, and now the Lord has revealed why He willed/allowed me to go through those experiences. What I can suggest, is that if you really surrender to God, then you had best trust the Holy Spirit and not freak out and second-guess and overthink everything, or it will be you against the demons. If you totally trust, then you will be led through the turmoil to safety, and you will most likely have taken the “scenic route” where the point of it was not to do good per se, but to give you an experience that will shape you in the future; by doing one of several things. Chances are they are destroying your old wine skin so you give up using them and allow the Lord to start pouring wine into your new one you were given at baptism but society did everything it could to hide it from you. This is why Jesus says you must lose your life in order to gain it. Because people’s whole sense of their lives and their identities, by around age 7, in hopelessly entangled with academic and anxious thinking that cannot know the will of God. It can discuss God and make images of God and then animate those images and think that’s what God is going to do, but God makes it pretty clear that we have no idea what He is thinking at any given time. He says our thoughts are not His thoughts, and that His wisdom is foolish to the worldly mind and His foolishness is wiser than human wisdom. And yet, we keep trying to reach God by figuring Him out, essentially a modern day Tower of Babel.

I think if we are going to fear for anybody’s eternal safety, we should take a closer look at the thousands upon thousands that make an idol out of the Bible.

I take you to mean that the Bible, being a static, written record of the inspirations of the Church fathers, is not the actual living Word. Jesus Himself is the Living Word, and so is present in the Eucharist. People do idolize the Bible, and this is one complaint that Catholics have about Protestants who believe in what we call sola scriptura; basically everything in the Bible is from God and nothing in the Bible (as they interpret it) is not the very Word of the Living God. That’s kind of like taking a photograph of a mountain and trying to climb it.

So if you do not want to idolize the Bible, that should speak well of Catholicism for you. Because we get inspiration not only from the Bible, but from Tradition. We have two major types of Tradition, the cataphatic and the apophatic. Unfortunately, since the apophatic cannot be described in writing or taught academically, it is not emphasized to the extent that most Catholics never even heard anything of the apophatic Tradition, or even know there is anything beyond what we do know. The apophatic tradition deals with what we don’t know about God, which is far greater than what we do know. It is where we can be taught to invite God to visit our hearts and minds using His native language – which is silent to human ears and brains. This is what I think you are referring to as being missing. It isn’t missing from the Catholic Tradition, it’s just one of our “best kept secrets.”

Alan

 

[AlanFromWichita]

TMI I suppose. Sorry.

 

[Tobias65]

The Word of God stands against you and you allude that I am prejudice against demons?

Well, we could be comparing apples with oranges. Who are you calling “demons”? Saints in heaven? Angels?

I doubt that is what you intended. More likely you are thinking that the entity that I call a “saint” is in fact a demon. Trust me, this isn’t anything I haven’t encountered before. This is why I thought I’d save us both the trouble and just call God: “Zeus”. Then we don’t have to get all angry at each other and nobody has to feel like their faith is being threatened. And then too, if I am wrong in thinking that I’m following the One True God, at least I wouldn’t also be guilty of ruining another person’s faith!

 

[Tobias65]

TMI I suppose. Sorry.

Lol. How do you think I feel?

It’s almost impossible to talk about these things without using real life examples. But then when someone jumps in here and misconstrues the entire point, it’s like: “And now I’ve said too much, haven’t said enough…”

 

[AlanFromWichita]

And then too, if I am wrong in thinking that I’m following the One True God, at least I wouldn’t also be guilty of ruining another person’s faith!

By what means do you come to the conclusion that you are following the One True God? Please forgive me if I missed an explanation about it; I scrolled up but not all the way.

Alan

 

[Tobias65]

By what means do you come to the conclusion that you are following the One True God? Please forgive me if I missed an explanation about it; I scrolled up but not all the way.

Alan

How does anybody know they are following the One True God?

Generally those who live entirely by head knowledge are the most sure. All it takes is believing a few creeds and following a few rules, and presto! You are one of God’s most faithful servants.

But when it comes to identifying spirits… (and do remember that “God is a spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and in truth”), there is no way to be quite as certain. Well, perhaps there is a way to be certain, but that way is through faith and our spirits baring witness with the Holy Spirit. It’s not nearly as finite (or definite) as the dogmatic way, but it is a spiritual way to answer a spiritual question. It is however, difficult to express in physical words.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

How does anybody know they are following the One True God?

Generally those who live entirely by head knowledge are the most sure. All it takes is believing a few creeds and following a few rules, and presto! You are one of God’s most faithful servants.

But when it comes to identifying spirits… (and do remember that “God is a spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and in truth”), there is no way to be quite as certain. Well, perhaps there is a way to be certain, but that way is through faith and our spirits baring witness with the Holy Spirit. It’s not nearly as finite (or definite) as the dogmatic way, but it is a spiritual way to answer a spiritual question. It is however, difficult to express in physical words.

Thank you. I think I have a handle on where you are coming from.

Your profile shows “Charismatic Christian.” Have you ever heard of Marilynn Kramar? She was the featured speaker at the Catholic Charismatic Conference, Oct 21-22, 1994, at the Ramada downtown Wichita. Bishop Eugene Gerber (now Bishop Emeritus) was in attendance and concelebrated Mass with several other priests at the conference.

Kamar singled me out of the whole room, in the strangest way ever. This was literally the first and last Catholic Charismatic event I’ve ever been to. I’ve visited a couple other Christian churches who were a bit charismatic, but these people did it all, hands waving in the air, talking in tongues, healing service, slain in the spirit, etc.

I was totally enjoying it, but felt not at all “consumed” by it. More like I was standing in a wonderful garden with happy creatures and enjoying the scenery. But then she had a call for people to come up to the front and she prayed in tongues over each one, and nearly each and everyone was “slain in the spirit,” or at least they were falling down. I was standing around the outside of the crowd about the stage, maybe 15 feet away from the stage and several layers of people between me and the stage. Everybody was going wild, and I was facing the band and watching them. I am a keyboard/oboe player and my brother was percussion, so I loved the band.

Then my wife pulled on my arm and said, “she wants you to come to the stage.” I looked back and she was leaning over the edge of the stage with her hand on a lady’s forehead. We made our way to the edge of the stage, and while Marilynn still had about 10 people to go to get to us, I asked my wife Julie what happened and Julie told me, “she looked at me, pointed at you, and motioned to come over.” She went down the line, bang bang bang. She had probably had prayed over 50 people, one at a time, but when she approached me – and only me – instead of putting her hands over me she literally took three steps back and yelled, "whoa! I’ve been doing this for 34 years and I’ve never seen anything like this before! I don’t have any idea what it is, but it’s nothing I have seen ever.

So during a break period, we approached her and asked what it was that she saw when she got to me. She said, “I don’t know. I just know I haven’t seen this before.” I asked, “well, is it good or bad?” She said, “I don’t know. It was huge. That’s all I can say.” She couldn’t say whether it was something she saw or not. Just that it was big.

So ever since then I’ve wondered what that was all about, as I suppose anyone would do.

Alan

 

[Tobias65]

Thank you. I think I have a handle on where you are coming from.

Your profile shows “Charismatic Christian.” Have you ever heard of Marilynn Kramar? She was the featured speaker at the Catholic Charismatic Conference, Oct 21-22, 1994, at the Ramada downtown Wichita. Bishop Eugene Gerber (now Bishop Emeritus) was in attendance and concelebrated Mass with several other priests at the conference.

Kamar singled me out of the whole room, in the strangest way ever. This was literally the first and last Catholic Charismatic event I’ve ever been to. I’ve visited a couple other Christian churches who were a bit charismatic, but these people did it all, hands waving in the air, talking in tongues, healing service, slain in the spirit, etc.

I was totally enjoying it, but felt not at all “consumed” by it. More like I was standing in a wonderful garden with happy creatures and enjoying the scenery. But then she had a call for people to come up to the front and she prayed in tongues over each one, and nearly each and everyone was “slain in the spirit,” or at least they were falling down. I was standing around the outside of the crowd about the stage, maybe 15 feet away from the stage and several layers of people between me and the stage. Everybody was going wild, and I was facing the band and watching them. I am a keyboard/oboe player and my brother was percussion, so I loved the band.

Then my wife pulled on my arm and said, “she wants you to come to the stage.” I looked back and she was leaning over the edge of the stage with her hand on a lady’s forehead. We made our way to the edge of the stage, and while Marilynn still had about 10 people to go to get to us, I asked my wife Julie what happened and Julie told me, “she looked at me, pointed at you, and motioned to come over.” She went down the line, bang bang bang. She had probably had prayed over 50 people, one at a time, but when she approached me – and only me – instead of putting her hands over me she literally took three steps back and yelled, "whoa! I’ve been doing this for 34 years and I’ve never seen anything like this before! I don’t have any idea what it is, but it’s nothing I have seen ever.

So during a break period, we approached her and asked what it was that she saw when she got to me. She said, “I don’t know. I just know I haven’t seen this before.” I asked, “well, is it good or bad?” She said, “I don’t know. It was huge. That’s all I can say.” She couldn’t say whether it was something she saw or not. Just that it was big.

So ever since then I’ve wondered what that was all about, as I suppose anyone would do.

Alan

I’m sorry Alan, but there’s really no way to know what it is she was talking about. It seems very unfair of her to call you forward only to say that to you. I would guess that either the Holy Spirit let her see something but then forbade her to say anything to you about it, or what she saw doesn’t fit in nicely with her theology so she refused to say anything that might get her into trouble.

I’ve never heard of this minister in particular, but I know that many Charismatic preachers see into the spirit or use other gifts to perceive what is going on in the meetings. Some talk of seeing angels rest upon those they are meant to pray for, others feel specific aches and pains in their bodies that symbolize the sicknesses that they are supposed to pray over.

What she might have seen that was “huge” is anybody’s guess. Your guardian angel? Your calling to serve Him? Or maybe like the Apostle Paul, it was the amount of suffering that you are slated to endure.

I wouldn’t worry about it if I were you. If God needed you to know what it was, then He’s have told you by now. Think of it this way, there are probably thousands of saints and angels watching you that know whatever it is that this one tiny human knew about you for a brief second. So who cares if she saw something? God makes sure we know what we need to know, when we need to know it. Otherwise, to try to find out secret information at the wrong time from the wrong sources, is the essence of practicing the occult.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

I’m sorry Alan, but there’s really no way to know what it is she was talking about. It seems very unfair of her to call you forward only to say that to you. I would guess that either the Holy Spirit let her see something but then forbade her to say anything to you about it, or what she saw doesn’t fit in nicely with her theology so she refused to say anything that might get her into trouble.

To be fair, when she called me forward I don’t think she had any idea – she seemed genuinely surprised when she approached me. I understand the part about it not fitting in with her theology… it’s kind of hard to tell. I’d show you a video of her, but the ones I’ve found on YouTube that I’ve found are all in Spanish.

As far as her theology, it wouldn’t surprise me. Since then I’ve encountered enough extreme situations mentally, and come to so many different conclusions, that I’m absolutely sure nobody else would take my path. It gives me insight into Jesus saying few will take “the narrow path.” The reason few will take the narrow path, is that each path is custom-made by the Holy Spirit, for each individual soul. You must know when to leave the herd and go your own way toward the Lord. As long as your attempts at finding God are by following the group, you will never look around to the side and see when you are being called to leave the herd, or the “flock,” to go the particular way the Lord has called.

That’s why I understand why organized religions with a “top-down” mindset and hierarchy of control, tend to quench or at least conceal the subtle groanings of the Spirit; how can you even detect those when you’re hell-bent on staying with the group no matter what? Top-down control breaks down when people start listening to the Holy Spirit. And when they are born of the spirit and are freed from the law of sin and death, then the very tool that was used to control them up until that point (threats and bribes or afterlife “karmatic” paybacks) breaks down and they do things like dance naked in the streets like King David or gesture toward killing their children like Abraham. As a religious leader, then, a person controlled by the spirit it out of order. So only those who remains within the construct of the organized religion are going to be considered as Saints, and IMO those very restraints is why we might see some of the more visible “leaks” in spiritual energy that come out in the form of stigmata, or having demons throw them around, or levitating or what have you. Perhaps there are outlets for spiritual energy to vent when the saint refuses to go outside certain parameters. This is just all a logic-feasibility model, though – one of many I’ve thought of, that help me explain what happens in the world that is beyond my direct measure or experience.

What she might have seen that was “huge” is anybody’s guess. Your guardian angel? Your calling to serve Him? Or maybe like the Apostle Paul, it was the amount of suffering that you are slated to endure.

There are many ways I’ve know, both before and since she said that, that distinguish me and/or the way I think from dang near anybody I’ve ever met or even heard of. What this has done for me, is to give me “permission” to think the extreme thoughts that would come to me for processing in my Dark Night a decade later. She may have seen that I was predisposed to an open minded-ness of a kind that few allow themselves. People used to tell me, “don’t be so open minded; if you’re not careful your brains will fall out,” to which I might have replied in the fashion of, “that’s good; then I can get some in there that work right!”

There are a lot of things it could connect to. I doesn’t make me wonder whether I’m unique; it’s more like what unique thing about me triggered her response. I’d give a few examples but I have to shorten this post already.

I wouldn’t worry about it if I were you. If God needed you to know what it was, then He’s have told you by now. Think of it this way, there are probably thousands of saints and angels watching you that know whatever it is that this one tiny human knew about you for a brief second. So who cares if she saw something? God makes sure we know what we need to know, when we need to know it. Otherwise, to try to find out secret information at the wrong time from the wrong sources, is the essence of practicing the occult.

I’m not worried about it. It was an amazing experience, and it has helped me to feel validated when I am so far “off the beaten path” that I can’t find anybody to share the ideas with. I always had confidence in my mind and in my ability to know not only what I know, but what I don’t know – I had a good and increasing handle on the nature of reality and a growing appreciation for the relativity of reality as it is experienced by each individual person. In fact, in times where I feel I’m the only one who can understand something, or when I can’t even tell somebody something because it’s so sensational, it reminds me of that day, “gee I wonder if this is another aspect of it.”

Another thing it’s done is to give me courage to take on radical roles. Like when Jesus said, “the one who believes in me will do greater works than these,” I’ve been challenged to do those “greater works,” and it took me a while to figure out how I was going to do that, considering I was not greater than the One doing those works – and if I were I was going to be worse-than-crucified which I wasn’t ready to bear. At this point I now trust in the Spirit enough that if I have to undergo suffering I will accept it with gladness. Twelve years of what seemed like suffering at the time has now turned to joy, as I am a new creation. If the Lord gifts me with more suffering or even with (gasp!) physical suffering, I know it will become gold, in the light of Rom 8:28.

Alan

 

[bcuster]

Yes, indeed! We are all called to be mystics in the sense that we are to have an intimate relationship with God. So how do we do this? First we develop habits of prayer. The amount of time spent in prayer is not as important as our fidelity to prayer. There are also different modes of prayer: Vocal prayer, mental prayer (medication), lectio divina (praying with scripture) and so on. Since we are all unique, God will lead us, over time, into the modes of prayer that will be most fruitful. The important thing is to begin simple and then build. There are many books that can help us grow. The Imitation of Christ was a big help to many saints. The Introduction to the Devout Life is also recommended.

Balanced with this we need to participate communally in the Sacraments. We are not just isolated individuals, we belong to the Body of Christ. The Eucharist, Confession, etc. help us develop the connectedness and the unity we have with Christ.

We will each have our “mystical” moments in life. Every day is not the Transfiguration. During the mundane times of life, we can look to these moments to encouraging, but we must not make them the goal. Mary, Mother of God, lived a simple daily life in Nazareth. She faithfully practiced her daily, weekly, monthly, and yearly prayers. Every day was not the Annunciation. She trusted in the Lord our God to be with her in good times as well as bad. She is my model for a true mystic.

 

[Dorothy]

Yes, indeed! We are all called to be mystics in the sense that we are to have an intimate relationship with God. So how do we do this? First we develop habits of prayer. The amount of time spent in prayer is not as important as our fidelity to prayer. There are also different modes of prayer: Vocal prayer, mental prayer (medication), lectio divina (praying with scripture) and so on. Since we are all unique, God will lead us, over time, into the modes of prayer that will be most fruitful. The important thing is to begin simple and then build. There are many books that can help us grow. The Imitation of Christ was a big help to many saints. The Introduction to the Devout Life is also recommended.

Balanced with this we need to participate communally in the Sacraments. We are not just isolated individuals, we belong to the Body of Christ. The Eucharist, Confession, etc. help us develop the connectedness and the unity we have with Christ.

We will each have our “mystical” moments in life. Every day is not the Transfiguration. During the mundane times of life, we can look to these moments to encouraging, but we must not make them the goal. Mary, Mother of God, lived a simple daily life in Nazareth. She faithfully practiced her daily, weekly, monthly, and yearly prayers. Every day was not the Annunciation. She trusted in the Lord our God to be with her in good times as well as bad. She is my model for a true mystic.

Yes! The focus of “Catholic Mysticism” is not about phenomena, (although that sometimes happens), but about growing in virtue and the love of God and neighbor. Our goal is to be one with Him for all eternity.

This site gives wonderful insights and inspiration about spiritually maturing:

rcspiritualdirection.com/blog/2013/05/11/mysticism-whos-called-to-it?utm_source=Catholic+Spiritual+Direction+blog&utm_campaign=c947e3afe4-RSS_EMAIL_CAMPAIGN&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_bbb9c690d6-c947e3afe4-59674433

Peace in Jesus and Mary!

Dorothy

 

[Mary_LA]

Thanks for the links given here, Dorothy, especially to the talks on the Spiritual Canticles by Father Venard Poslusney,

For those of us drawn to contemplative prayer, the ‘phenomena’ are far less important than the deepening of love and self-giving, the challenge of self-renunciation. The writings of the great Catholic mystics are an ongoing inspiration. We might not be great mystics ourselves, but to use an analogy, you can listen to Bach without needing to know how to play Bach’s music on the clavichord.

I would also recommend for those exploring contemplative prayer that they take a look at The Book of Privy Counselling from the latter part of the 14th century, sometimes seen as a companion volume to the Cloud of Unknowing for those of us familiar with apophatic prayer traditions.

Contemplative prayer isn’t for everyone. As a convert, I found that more discursive active kinds of prayer and the Ignatian ‘picturing of a scene’ worked for me for many years. I did * lectio divina* and Ignatian prayer faithfully for about two decades and only when I found that these kinds of prayer were not possible for me any longer, did I move into silent and wordless contemplative prayer.

On the other hand – I do think mystical experience happens to anyone who takes prayer and meditation seriously and who gives themselves over to regular daily practice. You can’t pray with all your heart and *not *be changed in ways you can’t begin to imagine. To encounter Mystery is to undergo transformation.

 

[Vouthon]

The Catechism is quite illuminating in respect to “phenomena” of mysticism:

“…Spiritual progress tends toward ever more intimate union with Christ. This union is called “mystical” because it participates in the mystery of Christ through the sacraments – ‘the holy mysteries’ – and, in him, in the mystery of the Holy Trinity. God calls us all to this intimate union with him, even if the special graces or extraordinary signs of this mystical life are granted only to some for the sake of manifesting the gratuitous gift given to all…”

Cathechism, section 2014.

Our faith teaches that every single person is called to union mystica (mystical union). Extraordinary signs and special graces are not an essential part of being a mystic.

Blessed Elizabeth of the Trinity & Servant of God Elizabeth Lesuer were both mystics, yet neither had any visions, ecstatic signs or miraculous events in their lives.

They were simply deeply contemplative women who had found union with God in their depths but without any overt supernatural “phenomena”.

Such graces, as the catechism explains, are given to “only to some” as a visible manifestation of the invisible gift granted to everyone.

 

[Tobias65]

Well, we could be comparing apples with oranges. Who are you calling “demons”? Saints in heaven? Angels?

I doubt that is what you intended. More likely you are thinking that the entity that I call a “saint” is in fact a demon. Trust me, this isn’t anything I haven’t encountered before. This is why I thought I’d save us both the trouble and just call God: “Zeus”. Then we don’t have to get all angry at each other and nobody has to feel like their faith is being threatened. And then too, if I am wrong in thinking that I’m following the One True God, at least I wouldn’t also be guilty of ruining another person’s faith!

Some time ago I really did wonder if I was following the Lord God, or some other pagan deity that simply let me believe that he was Him. As there are countless pagan gods, this was no easy task! I came to realize eventually that the only way to know was to simply trust the word of my God when He tells me who He is. That, and the fact that He uses the Bible and the Church to guide my life.

For a time though I did find it convenient to think of Him as Zeus. Not because I thought of Zeus as a lessor pagan god, but because I thought of Zeus as an alternative way to picture the God of Heaven. To the Greeks, Zeus was known as “Father God”. And while they may have built idols and worshiped them with detestable practices, I still would like to think that some people in that religion came to know the One True God. I suppose in their ignorance they would have called Him “Zeus”, just like how in the Bible we see the people in the Middle East called Jehovah, “El”. El was the name of the highest god of their pagan pantheon, yet it also applied to the Lord God of Israel.

This is what it boils down to: for me to call God “Zeus” is my way of rejecting the Church. I have chosen to keep my relationship with God, but sometimes I really don’t care to keep it with other Christians. This is stupid. At least now it is. It may have been a necessary step along the way as I chose to keep God as my King despite the existence of all the others. But He has been leading me on a path back to the Church, and to call Him “Zeus” now is just a cop out; and an abandonment of everything He’s leading me into at this moment.

Sorry.