Catholic Mysticism

[Tobias65]

Hi Alan, thank you for sharing. It helps.

I don’t mean to sound helpless, as in, I have heard of St. John of the Cross and the Dark Night of the Soul. I have looked through the library catalog and placed some books about Catholic Saints on hold. My problem is finding proper guidance and direction on what to make of their stories.

I’m not moved by poetry, and simply don’t “get” St. John’s writings. I heard people talk of the Dark Night years ago and was really helped by it, but it seems that I keep entering it over and over again. So I thought that it didn’t apply properly to my situation. Then within the past few days I came across a thread here talking about a second Dark Night… which involves feelings of disqualification from leadership and even Christianity itself, and it clicked once again!

 

[TiggerS]

I found your post extremely helpful. Thank you!

I have personally had numerous mystical experiences, which led me to the brink of becoming a pagan. Most of the reason for that was perhaps a personal trial of my faith that accompanied the experiences; but part of it too is because quite frankly, we protestants have no idea how to cope with these situations.

So I’ve come here hoping to glean some answers.

I’d honestly never thought of it as a cross to bare, or “a way of suffering” as you put it. This is somewhat of a foreign concept to my brain, but feels right inside. I intend to pursue that angle.

Also you mentioned that these experiences can come from one of three places: God, Satan, or the person’s own imagination (no, that’s not quite how you put it, but I swear I knew this before!) It kind of puts things in perspective, that the experiences themselves do not dictate who or what we are, they simply exist. And because I choose Christ, I can also choose to talk about the things which are beneficial to others rather than the things which I cannot understand even for myself. I would much rather talk about how the Good Shepherd went out and found me when I was lost and feeling disqualified from Christianity, and He brought me back to the fold.

I guess my focus has changed from thinking that these experiences were oh so important to discuss, to realizing that the standard Gospel is the standard Gospel for a reason. Like Peter said to Jesus, “Only you hold the keys to eternal life.” None of this other stuff really matters, does it?

The Lord cannot be put into a box or compartment. Some have had an unusual experience - something akin to a mystical experience or even one in fact. Consolations of all kinds inclujding unusual experiences according to St Teresa are sent by The Lord as encouragement. Whether one enters onto the actual mystical way or not (and this is not marked by unusual phenomena other than to encourage one). St Teresa put it tjhat it is to :to encourage one in weakness. Unusual mystical pheonemena is not God Himself, rather an overflow into the senses of God - a potential side effect from the Presence of The Lord which He permits… The mystical way per se, is marked by varying degrees of suffering, sometimes quite intense suffering. A director discerns where one is by how one responds. These consolations are indeed a gift and also a sign that one is indeed weak. Unsual mystical phenomena is not the mystical way itself and one can be on this journey without them. It is simply that they can occur sometimes, but not necessarily, by the person who is on the mystical way.

Mystical theology points out firmly that unusual and rare mystical type phenomena can indeed come from one’s own imagaination, or even Satan. Many can be deceived by thinking that Satan would not bring about some good of any kind. But that thing is so cunning and deceptive, that it can bring about some apparent good in order to have the person think that it is coming from God and so fall under it’s influence in order to eventually lead the person astray. This is why a spiritaul director is such a gift and essential to any who might be tempted to believe unusual phenomena, seemingly mystical in nature. A good and experienced, educated and holy spiritual director can discern the origian most often - not by the mystical experience itself, but from the result of that experience. This is not achieved in one sitting most often, but diserning will take a series of appointments or sittings. If I have an unsual type mystical phenomena, I would not try to discern its origin, rather I would leave that up to my director and simply put the phenomena out of my mind and reserve all judgment and assessing until my director advised me on the matter. Personal revlations, instructions etc. under mystical phenomena conditions can be spiritually dangerous without spiritual direction.

 

[TiggerS]

I think that we are all called to holiness and with all the gifts of the Holy Spirit and especially Faith and fortitude (strength). We are called to holiness no matter what happens inthe course of our life, even great suffering. Such firm unswerving faithfulness will produce the fruits of The Holy Spirit (the gifts and fruits are all int he CCC. I dont have time to post them just now). Under these circumstances we could be called mystics in a loose sense, if not quite in the strict sense falling under mystical theology. As I said, it is a way of The Cross, moreso than any sort of mystical phenomena which need not be present to be actually on the mystical way.
Primarily the mystic is marked by unswerving total devotion to God and to neighbour and by evidence of both the gifts and fruits of the Holy Spirit. The mystic per se is marked by holiness. Mystical phenomena is not essential to the mystical way per se.
There are heaps of ‘false mystics’ around.

 

[Tobias65]

The Lord cannot be put into a box or compartment. Some have had an unusual experience - something akin to a mystical experience or even one in fact. Consolations of all kinds inclujding unusual experiences according to St Teresa are sent by The Lord as encouragement. Whether one enters onto the actual mystical way or not (and this is not marked by unusual phenomena other than to encourage one). St Teresa put it tjhat it is to :to encourage one in weakness. Unusual mystical pheonemena is not God Himself, rather an overflow into the senses of God - a potential side effect from the Presence of The Lord which He permits… The mystical way per se, is marked by varying degrees of suffering, sometimes quite intense suffering. A director discerns where one is by how one responds. These consolations are indeed a gift and also a sign that one is indeed weak. Unsual mystical phenomena is not the mystical way itself and one can be on this journey without them. It is simply that they can occur sometimes, but not necessarily, by the person who is on the mystical way.

Mystical theology points out firmly that unusual and rare mystical type phenomena can indeed come from one’s own imagaination, or even Satan. Many can be deceived by thinking that Satan would not bring about some good of any kind. But that thing is so cunning and deceptive, that it can bring about some apparent good in order to have the person think that it is coming from God and so fall under it’s influence in order to eventually lead the person astray. This is why a spiritaul director is such a gift and essential to any who might be tempted to believe unusual phenomena, seemingly mystical in nature. A good and experienced, educated and holy spiritual director can discern the origian most often - not by the mystical experience itself, but from the result of that experience. This is not achieved in one sitting most often, but diserning will take a series of appointments or sittings. If I have an unsual type mystical phenomena, I would not try to discern its origin, rather I would leave that up to my director and simply put the phenomena out of my mind and reserve all judgment and assessing until my director advised me on the matter. Personal revlations, instructions etc. under mystical phenomena conditions can be spiritually dangerous without spiritual direction.

I’m not sure I know what you mean by “Unusual mystical phenomenon.” I can take a guess, but it would really help to know what “usual mystical phenomena” might be.

 

[Tobias65]

Primarily the mystic is marked by unswerving total devotion to God and to neighbour and by evidence of both the gifts and fruits of the Holy Spirit. The mystic per se is marked by holiness.

I like it!

I take it this is what a Catholic looks for before identifying someone as a mystic. As this thread is titled “Catholic Mysticism”, and is found on a Catholic site, I don’t suppose it is even necessary to point out that most other people don’t keep to this definition. It most certainly is not what I meant when I said that I am a mystic. Though it does set a very high standard to which I can only hope to achieve.

 

[Lady_Love]

Maybe this is too simplistic but I would probably consider someone a mystic if they enter into the experience and heart of Jesus and know Him in an intimate and profound way. The result of these intimate experiences/knowing is a human being radiating with the Holy Spirit in their presence and actions(often their potency is imperceivable to themselves). Their actions, from the outside looking in, may be easily overlooked or seem insignificant but are so charged with love that they have profound effects. I do not think that super-natural events make a mystic but the deep and profound intimacy with Jesus does.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Hi Alan, thank you for sharing. It helps.

I don’t mean to sound helpless, as in, I have heard of St. John of the Cross and the Dark Night of the Soul. I have looked through the library catalog and placed some books about Catholic Saints on hold. My problem is finding proper guidance and direction on what to make of their stories.

I’m not moved by poetry, and simply don’t “get” St. John’s writings. I heard people talk of the Dark Night years ago and was really helped by it, but it seems that I keep entering it over and over again. So I thought that it didn’t apply properly to my situation. Then within the past few days I came across a thread here talking about a second Dark Night… which involves feelings of disqualification from leadership and even Christianity itself, and it clicked once again!

OK, no problem if the stanzas don’t mean anything to you. The book still may, though honestly I’ve only read a fraction of it myself. Most of my knowledge about the Dark Night is from personal experience. So I have a lot of “hard knox” understanding, but it is just as clear to me that the things that happened to me were by and large unique to me, although the overall process is the same. It’s a purification activity whose specific experiences are made to order for each person’s Dark Night, and typically not under control by that person. It is like getting an early start on purgatory. In my case is was 12 years of some pretty scary psychosis, but eventually it died and left me at peace, in the kingdom. And I get to live in serenity and joy and all other good things now, even while I’m still here in this place some people call a “hellhole.” Well, a hellhole where Jesus walked and invites us to walk with Him, is a paradise to me. Never could have gotten here by education; it had to happen just as it did – hence trust in the Holy Spirit is helpful, if not lifesaving, during these times.

Alan

 

[Christine85]

A simple book I keep recommending to everyone which I believe to be mysticism, though not generally seen that way is “The Practice of the Presence of God” by Br Lawrence , you can read it here ccel.org/ccel/lawrence/practice

That book is a must read and you could probably get through it in under a couple of hours. It is an eye opener and extremely simple in its ideas, you wont regret reading it that’s for sure

 

[fhansen]

**Dear Brothers and Sisters in the SACRED HEART!!

Todays Gospel reflected on that, as Sheep of Our Good Shepherd, we have been trained to recognize HIS VOICE. One of the ways that we can better attune ourselves to HIS VOICE is obviously, by Prayer. Which brings me to ask the question:

Mystics such as St. Catherine of Siena, or St. Faustina, were prayer warriors. They (from our perspective) knew how to pray. They also had a much more intimate expierence with GOD, presumably because of the fact that they prayed a lot, and knew the mechanics of prayer. now as for us, unless we are mystics, we aren’t going to get an Angel stabbing us through the heart with the spear of GODS LOVE like St. Teresa. However, we also feel GOD at work in our souls by feeling consolation or a “spiritual arousal”. We’ve all felt it before (Some more, others less) and can connect on the idea that we have all had “intimate” expierences with GOD.

So then without further adue:

Aren’t all Catholics called to be Mystics then? Aren’t we all supposed to become Mystics through our prayer?

I want some thoughts on this. All thoughts welcome. **

I don’t believe we’re all called to be mystics in the true sense of the word. We’re all called to grow in the knowledge of God but the knowledge of a mystic, of course, is deeper, more immediate. And even though any of us may seek, as we all should, God must still do the granting, according to His will and for His purposes.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

When one crosses over into “thinking like a mystic,” one finds that really there was no “accomplishment” at all. Lots of hard work and even suffering and scary things and what have you, might have gone into the experiences that ultimately resulted in that kind of thinking, but the transition itself is so simple it’s nearly laughable – but it doesn’t even deserve that much dignity. One realizes that one must have been living in a Matrix-like existence this whole time and suddenly, not.

It is actually a much simpler way of thinking, to the conscious mind, because the conscious and the subconscious, or maybe better called the focused thoughts and the peripheral thoughts, come into harmony. And it’s so ridiculously straightforward that one thinks, a) why did it seem so hard to get to this point, being such an obvious way of looking at things, and b) why doesn’t everybody realize this? The reason is that our paths are narrow and most people take the wide path. When Jesus says “the narrow path,” He means the one that is made for us, individually. Most people take the wide path by group association, by following others or a “method” or whatever, but the best thing these things can do is bring us to the point of realization that we recognize when there is a path for us, individually, that we must take – one that does not necessary confine itself to whatever everybody else is doing.

The central nervous system – which IMO cannot be distinguished from “mind” because it’s all connected more like an internet (with several major hubs such as a few in the head and heart) and not like a central controller which sends out commands for the extremeties – does hundreds of things at a time, nearly all of them without our even being consciously aware of them. The focused mind is like a spotlight that shines all of our focused resources on one thing, while the subconscious mind is like a glow – or lack of it when we feel we are in darkness – that permeates everything that’s going on in our bodies and minds at any given moment. It is in getting the focused and non-focused mind into harmony where they play nice together in a synergistic way.

One major issue is that at least in the west we are all socialized to be individualistic, in that we take conscious control over our mind and actions, and evaluate things logically and “sanely” according to rules we are told must always apply, yada yada. The result is that our subconscious actually fails to develop and is even repressed as we become socialized, to the point by age 7 or so that we have completely detached our focused minds from our peripheral awareness and never get it back. Because we are always fighting our urges, fighting our sins, fighting our human nature. It’s like we are walking around in Central Park in NY, on a dark night when the city power has failed, and thinking we’re going to monitor everything in it with a flashlight. We forget that our “flashlight” is intimately connected with each and every blade of grass, tree, or other plant in the park, and that our awareness of other animals/people in the park is always “felt” by a part of us, but we become insensitive (blind) to these until we finally learn to know the winds of the spirit. Until then, one has to try to map out the whole park, or a sufficient section to make abode, looking at it one iota at a time, and try to draw major conclusions; it’s no wonder there are so many scary things in those darker parts that our subconscious may react to without our specific consent. Things can surprise us because they hide in the darkness we have systematically refused to look at. Faith is hard to distinguish from fear, foolishness, and presumption.

In “The Fulfillment of All Desire,” Ralph Martin compares ideas from several doctors of the Church regarding spiritual development, roughly classified into three stages (I say “stages” but one can be in all at the same time) of 1) Purgative way, 2) Illuminative way, and 3) unitive way. St. Teresa of Avila has the “seven mansions” which break it down more; Martin associates mansions 1-3 with the purgative way (like what happens in the Dark Night), mansions 4-6 with the illuminative way, and mansion 7 with unitive way. Beyond the three “ways” is “Beatific Vision.” Let’s see how the doctors describe the unitive stage, since this is the most dear to me:

(Source: The Fulfillment of All Desire, ch 2 p. 13)

Teresa of Avila: Mansion seven, “spiritual marriage,” “perfect” but still faults and inadvertent venial sins are possible; great fruitfulness in prayer and action.

John of the Cross: “Perfect,” habitual, contemplative union, “spiritual marriage,” transforming union." (from Living Flame, spiritual canticle 22-40)

Catherine of Siena: “Filial Love,” “love as a very dear friend,” (love for the sake of other), kiss of the mouth of Christ, union of contemplation and action.

Bernard of Clairvaux: “Spousal love”; “friends of the Bridegroom” (universal love, even of enemies)

Francis De Sales: Ruled by love; spousal love; perfect union of wills, in the following of the commandments, counsels, and inspirations of the Holy Spirit; Jesus living in and through us; perfect love casts out fear but servile and mercenary motives still help in time of temptation.

Alan

 

[Dorothy]

**Dear Brothers and Sisters in the SACRED HEART!!

Todays Gospel reflected on that, as Sheep of Our Good Shepherd, we have been trained to recognize HIS VOICE. One of the ways that we can better attune ourselves to HIS VOICE is obviously, by Prayer. Which brings me to ask the question:

Mystics such as St. Catherine of Siena, or St. Faustina, were prayer warriors. They (from our perspective) knew how to pray. They also had a much more intimate expierence with GOD, presumably because of the fact that they prayed a lot, and knew the mechanics of prayer. now as for us, unless we are mystics, we aren’t going to get an Angel stabbing us through the heart with the spear of GODS LOVE like St. Teresa. However, we also feel GOD at work in our souls by feeling consolation or a “spiritual arousal”. We’ve all felt it before (Some more, others less) and can connect on the idea that we have all had “intimate” expierences with GOD.

So then without further adue:

Aren’t all Catholics called to be Mystics then? Aren’t we all supposed to become Mystics through our prayer?

I want some thoughts on this. All thoughts welcome. **

I believe all Catholics are called to be mystics according to the capacity that our Lord Jesus Christ gives them.

It means to be prayerful people, putting the Lord first in all things.

St. Teresa of Avila was used by the Lord to start many monasteries where the members were schooled in a way
that their prayer brought them on the way to sanctification. These monasteries were power houses of prayer that helped many. I can understand why the Lord gave her such deep mystical graces.

St. John of the Cross’ poetry does need explanation. And I will share a site where you can hear MP 3s explaining “The Study of the Spiritual Canticle of St. John of the Cross”. It is given by a Carmelite priest, now deceased, whose forte was giving retreats and spiritual direction to priests, nuns, and those lay people interested in a deeper prayer life.

advancedchristianity.com

It comes from the parish of St. Catherine of Siena in Franklin Square, NY. There are many other topics available that are discussed by Father Venard Poslusney, O.Carm. in great depth, clearly and very helpful!

 

[TiggerS]

I’m not sure I know what you mean by “Unusual mystical phenomenon.” I can take a guess, but it would really help to know what “usual mystical phenomena” might be.

Unusual mystical phenomena could be locutions (hearing the voice of Jesus), levitating (lifting off the ground) bi-location I think it is called (being in two places at once), mystical ecstacies of various kinds. Those experiences that are not common - but quite rare at least in their genuine form as gifts of God. There are many false mystics with unsual experiences of one kind of another and this flows from their own imagination ( a very powerful human qualityh) or even from the devil, who desires the person to think that they are holy in order to lead them into pride and other deceptions.
In the main, St Teresa of Avila felt that all sorts of consolations, mystical phenomena or not, are not signs of holiness, rather they are gifts of God sent to encourage one along the way in weakness. Sometimes of course, they are signs of holiness.

Mysticism is about the journey to Unity with The Lord and again, St Teresa stated that the surest and safest way to Union is through love of neighbour. If I love God, then the Love of God is dwelling in me and the Love of God flows out to the whole universe - and hence it is with the person who truly Loves God. “How can you say you love God whom you cannot see if you do not love your neighbour whom you can see”.

Mysticism per se is a difficult way of suffering in the main as Unity takes place in The Will through Faith and Faith is strengthened through suffering. It is not easy to remain faithful in the midst of suffering. Many think that mystical phenomena is a sign of mysticism per se and it can be but not necessarily so. It is not the essence of mysticism. Mystics are usualy marked by common sense, a down to earthedness and a great Love of God and neighbour, they are hard workers. A true mystic may have genuine unusual phenomena present, or they may not.

One would be most lacking in both wisdom and prudence to embrace any srot of unusal mystical type phenomena n their lives without first consulting a spiritual director and in complete docility and obediencfe to whatever the director might advise.

 

[Tobias65]

One would be most lacking in both wisdom and prudence to embrace any srot of unusal mystical type phenomena n their lives without first consulting a spiritual director and in complete docility and obediencfe to whatever the director might advise.

Hmm. As a Protestant, any “spiritual director” I might choose for myself is going to tell me that most of this stuff is from the devil. I find that with the experiences comes the authentication of the Lord, when indeed it is something given by Him. No outside party is going to know for certain whether His stamp of approval is upon it or not! I have been burned before tying to let a pastor decide whether God was leading me to do something or not. I found that He was rather disapproving when I allowed a mere man to tell me to do things contrary to the will of God. “Thou shalt have no other gods before Me” comes to mind!]

Also, I would define a mystic as “someone who has mystical experiences.” I’m having a difficult time trying to wrap my head around the idea that this is not the case with your definition. I understand that different branches of religion have their own lingo to describe their unique applications of different concepts, but I’m struggling none the less.

 

[Dorothy]

Tobias65,

Many spiritual directors have the knowledge and the holiness along with the gift of discernment to help someone on their spiritual journey. To ask for their wisdom and discernment does not mean that we are putting them before the Lord. Both the spiritual director and the directee need to be in prayerful discernment.

The Lord gives various gifts, and uses us to build up the Body of Christ.

 

[TiggerS]

Hmm. As a Protestant, any “spiritual director” I might choose for myself is going to tell me that most of this stuff is from the devil. I find that with the experiences comes the authentication of the Lord, when indeed it is something given by Him. No outside party is going to know for certain whether His stamp of approval is upon it or not! I have been burned before tying to let a pastor decide whether God was leading me to do something or not. I found that He was rather disapproving when I allowed a mere man to tell me to do things contrary to the will of God. “Thou shalt have no other gods before Me” comes to mind!]

I agree that a mystic is one who has mystical type experienc(s), which is different from unusual mystical phenomena. One is not obvious and quite overt and observable by a person looking on, the other is absolutely overt and obvious to any person looking on as it were. Unusual mystical phenomena is observable by any person looking at the mystic at the time. Mysticism is the journey to Unity with God and for most of us this will not be until Heaven and for some genuine mystics too. Some mystics atttain Unity with God here on earth. Mysticism is not an easy journey of endless consolations, but in the main a road of suffering of one kind and degree or another - consolations are sent by God to encourage the mystic along the road. But in all that, it is only my definition drawn from here and there and Catholic sources.
Reading your Post, I can see that you are not ‘coming from’ Catholic theology in places as I sure hope that I am. However, I might be very wrong about mysticism when we get to Heaven and find out the reality of matters.

It is probably all a matter of definition and how one arrives at one’s definition and we all “work out our own salvation in fear and trembling”. We are all mere mortals, faulted, weak and fallible and we all can only ever try do our best. If man cannot understand this, then The Lord can “man judges appearances, but The Lord knows the heart”. We may all get to Heaven and find all our definitions crash to the ground. To my mind at Judgement, The Lord will not be judging us by our definitions of this or that, but by our heart and in the main the person we were on earth, not what our definitions may have been “Man judges appearances, but The Lord knows the heart”

 

[TiggerS]

I …edit…

I guess my focus has changed from thinking that these experiences were oh so important to discuss, to realizing that the standard Gospel is the standard Gospel for a reason. Like Peter said to Jesus, “Only you hold the keys to eternal life.” None of this other stuff really matters, does it?

I think perhaps you are a bit mixed up about what Peter said to Jesus:

Peter says to Jesus after Jesus has asked His apostles who they think He is. Peter replies

"Simon Peter answered and said: Thou art Christ, the Son of the living God. [17] And Jesus answering, said to him: Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven.[18] And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. [19] And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven. [20] Then he commanded his disciples, that they should tell no one that he was Jesus the Christ. " Matthew Chapter 16.

Of course, you are absolutely correct in stating that only Jesus has the key to eternal life - which He does pass on to Peter and our very first Pope and in the quotation above.

You mention somewhere, Tobias, that you instinctively knew something that was stated to you or something along those lines. Many have this experience, it is not unusual, and a work of The Holy Spirit and Grace. And this could be called, in my defintion, a type of mystical experience possibly only - but not necessarily. And again just my definition and I hope and pray I am ready to abandon my defintions in most all things if sound and reliable arguments are presented to me that fall in line with what The Catholic Church teaches including Her theology in various areas.

 

[Tobias65]

I agree that a mystic is one who has mystical type experienc(s), which is different from unusual mystical phenomena. One is not obvious and quite overt and observable by a person looking on, the other is absolutely overt and obvious to any person looking on as it were. Unusual mystical phenomena is observable by any person looking at the mystic at the time. Mysticism is the journey to Unity with God and for most of us this will not be until Heaven and for some genuine mystics too. Some mystics atttain Unity with God here on earth. Mysticism is not an easy journey of endless consolations, but in the main a road of suffering of one kind and degree or another - consolations are sent by God to encourage the mystic along the road. But in all that, it is only my definition drawn from here and there and Catholic sources.
Reading your Post, I can see that you are not ‘coming from’ Catholic theology in places as I sure hope that I am. However, I might be very wrong about mysticism when we get to Heaven and find out the reality of matters.

It is probably all a matter of definition and how one arrives at one’s definition and we all “work out our own salvation in fear and trembling”. We are all mere mortals, faulted, weak and fallible and we all can only ever try do our best. If man cannot understand this, then The Lord can “man judges appearances, but The Lord knows the heart”. We may all get to Heaven and find all our definitions crash to the ground. To my mind at Judgement, The Lord will not be judging us by our definitions of this or that, but by our heart and in the main the person we were on earth, not what our definitions may have been “Man judges appearances, but The Lord knows the heart”

 

[Tobias65]

I think perhaps you are a bit mixed up about what Peter said to Jesus:

…

My mistake, I quoted the passage wrong. I was shooting for this one:

John 6:66 As a result of this many of His disciples withdrew and were not walking with Him anymore. 67 So Jesus said to the twelve, “You do not want to go away also, do you?” 68 Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have words of eternal life. 69 We have believed and have come to know that You are the Holy One of God.”

 

[Dorothy]

I think perhaps you are a bit mixed up about what Peter said to Jesus:

Peter says to Jesus after Jesus has asked His apostles who they think He is. Peter replies

"Simon Peter answered and said: Thou art Christ, the Son of the living God. [17] And Jesus answering, said to him: Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven.[18] And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. [19] And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven. [20] Then he commanded his disciples, that they should tell no one that he was Jesus the Christ. " Matthew Chapter 16.

Of course, you are absolutely correct in stating that only Jesus has the key to eternal life - which He does pass on to Peter and our very first Pope and in the quotation above.

You mention somewhere, Tobias, that you instinctively knew something that was stated to you or something along those lines. Many have this experience, it is not unusual, and a work of The Holy Spirit and Grace. And this could be called, in my defintion, a type of mystical experience possibly only - but not necessarily. And again just my definition and I hope and pray I am ready to abandon my defintions in most all things if sound and reliable arguments are presented to me that fall in line with what The Catholic Church teaches including Her theology in various areas.

On Christian Mysticism:

Perhaps you, Tobias, and maybe others may be interested in this site which contains many tapes, now on MP3’s on there. Most of the tapes are about the prayer journey, and reaching union with Christ. There are some on “Interior Castle”, some on St. John of the Cross’ Spiritual Canticle, and many on Centering Prayer. (Not to be confused with eastern, non-Christian centering prayer).

Father Venard Poslusney, O.Carm., now deceased, was a retreat master for priests, nuns, and anyone interested in a deeper prayer life. In my opinion, he explains thoroughly about the topics he knows most about.

advancedchristianity.com/

 

[TiggerS]

My mistake, I quoted the passage wrong. I was shooting for this one:

John 6:66 As a result of this many of His disciples withdrew and were not walking with Him anymore. 67 So Jesus said to the twelve, “You do not want to go away also, do you?” 68 Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have words of eternal life. 69 We have believed and have come to know that You are the Holy One of God.”

Good quote! From The Gospels we know that the apostles rather regularly got confused (not referring to your quote above) and had not grasped the teachings of Jesus at all, not in its essence anyway. Sometimes, perhaps, they just forgot what Jesus had said and had meant by what He said. I dont think that they ever really grasped that Jesus was heading for arrest, torture and death., despite the fact He told them that He would and a few times. They clung to that prevailing notion that the messiah would usher in a time of wordly glory and defeat of The Romans who ruled them then.

And where your quote is concerned it happens in a particarly startling and confronting statement of Jesus and probably the most confronting and startling statement in the New Testament for the people, including the discples and apostles to just accept back then in the times of Jesus…

drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=50&ch=6&l=69#x
[56]** For my flesh is meat indeed: and my blood is drink indeed. [57] He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, abideth in me, and I in him. [58] As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father; so he that eateth me, the same also shall live by me**. [59] This is the bread that came down from heaven. Not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead. He that eateth this bread, shall live for ever. [60] These things he said, teaching in the synagogue, in Capharnaum. [61] Many therefore of his disciples, hearing it, said: This saying is hard, and who can hear it? [62] But Jesus, knowing in himself, that his disciples murmured at this, said to them: Doth this scandalize you?

66] And he said: Therefore did I say to you, that no man can come to me, unless it be given him by my Father. [67] After this many of his disciples went back; and walked no more with him. [68] Then Jesus said to the twelve: Will you also go away? [69]](Douay-Rheims Bible, John Chapter 6)** And Simon Peter answered him: Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life**. [70] And we have believed and have known, that thou art the Christ, the Son of God.

For those in the Jewish Faith at that time, it would have been a totally overwhelming and outtlandish thing for Jesus to state and so many left following Him. It is understandable to me if I empathize as being a person back in the times of Jesus to suddenly hear him make such a statement and statements, the likes of which had never ever been heard nor hinted at before in the Jewish Faith and they all were practising Jews (Jesus and his Apostles, disciples)as well as many of the people who came to listen to Him.