Catholic or "Christian"?

[chuey55]

I wonder if “turning it around” on them will assist with answering their misconceptions and cause them to believe Catholics are Christians or reinforce their beliefs?

“A gentle answer turns away wrath…a harsh word stirs up anger.”

Just thinking out loud here…wondering if there is a gentle and loving way to correct…instead of seeking to “turn it around” on them.

You won’t change everyone’s mind, Jesus didn’t, so why do we think we will.
I tell them straight out and don’t beat around the bush so to speak. I noticed alot of bold people need to be told in a bold way. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with that. Don’t worry about offending people when it comes to the Truth. You don’t have to yell at them, just tell them with a sincere soft voice. If they still get upset, then, well, what does that tell you… We live in a day and age when we’re so worried about offending people, thats why our Church is in the position it’s in now.

 

[CopticChristian]

That’s obviously not true. You can be Italian and be Catholic. Haven’t these guys ever seen The Godfather or The Sopranos?

Or Palestinian. Don’t they know that Yasar Arafats wife is Catholic.

 

[Izdaari]

I got another one

Baptist are “Christian” but not all Christians are Baptist.

Non denominational are “Christian” but not all Christians are Non denominational.

What annoys me is that these silly questions always seem to work one way in a Protestants eyes, but when you twist it on them, just watch how they get offended, even downright angry.

I hope this question disappears from their scripts

That’s exactly true, and completely orthodox from either a Catholic or Protestant perspective.

You could even take it a step further: Baptists are Christians, but not all Baptists are Christians, etc.

Whatever church you’re in, you have to follow Christ to be a Christ-follower.

 

[jjbulano]

I am a Catholic convert (of 23 years). I worked with a wonderful woman who left the Catholic Church to become a fundamentalist. We never discussed our faith, but when her breast cancer returned a third time, and the doctors told her that they could try an experimental treatment, but she honestly had no chance of her cancer going back into remission, I bought her a book of daily reflections by Billy Graham. She was shocked when she opened the gift and commented, “I didn’t know you are a Christian.” To which I replied, “Yes, I converted to Catholicism a number of years ago – but as I had always had a great respect for Billy Graham, I thought his book might help you.” She had a very odd look on her face, but never questioned my Christianity again.

 

[awantz]

That’s exactly true, and completely orthodox from either a Catholic or Protestant perspective.

You could even take it a step further: Baptists are Christians, but not all Baptists are Christians, etc.

Whatever church you’re in, you have to follow Christ to be a Christ-follower.

Nicely put!!!

 

[CopticChristian]

Nicely put!!!

But you have to be baptized, regenerated, be filled with grace, and be declared to be a child of God to follow your brother to be a fellow Christian. Many follow that have not been regenerated by Water Baptism.

 

[DebChris]

But you have to be baptized, regenerated, be filled with grace, and be declared to be a child of God to follow your brother to be a fellow Christian. Many follow that have not been regenerated by Water Baptism.

Don’t forget that the Church also accepts as valid Baptism of Desire (for those die before they are able to receive water Baptism) and a Baptism of Blood (for those who are martyred for their faith). None of us is in the position of Judge as to who will or will not be accepted into the Kingdom of Heaven.

CCC820"Christ bestowed unity on his Church from the beginning. This unity, we believe, subsists in the Catholic Church as something she can never lose, and we hope that it will continue to increase until the end of time." Christ always gives his Church the gift of unity but the Church must always pray and work to maintain, reinforce, and perfect the unity that Christ wills for her.

CCC818 “However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born in these communities [those that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers… All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church.”

 

[awantz]

But you have to be baptized, regenerated, be filled with grace, and be declared to be a child of God to follow your brother to be a fellow Christian. Many follow that have not been regenerated by Water Baptism.

I can honestly say I have.

 

[CopticChristian]

I can honestly say I have.

Fantastic. Recognize that everytime you see a Catholic signing themselves it is a sign of recognition of belief in the Trinity. There are a few out there that deny it. Recognize that it is also a recollection of our Baptismal Vow. If you have occasion to be a part of a baptism during a mass here is what you will hear. We recognize our personal lord and savior.

Priest: Thrice happy children, who have lived to see this blessed hour, when your Friend, your Savior, your God, Jesus Christ, stands at the threshold of your soul, knocks at the door, and asks to be admitted. At this solemn moment in the name of Him Whom you are about to receive, I invite you to renew the promises which your godfathers and godmothers made for you at a time when your infant lips could not utter them:

P. Do you renounce Satan? Answer: We do.
P. And all his works? Answer: We do.
P. And all his pomps? A. We do.
P. Do you believe that there is only one God, the Creator, Preserver and Ruler of all things and the Father of all men? A: We do.
P. Do you believe that this our God and Father is a just judge, Who rewards the good and punishes the wicked? A. We do.
P. Do you believe that in one God there are three Divine Persons - God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost? A. We do.
P. Do you believe that the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity, Jesus Christ, was made man, was conceived of the Holy Ghost, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died and was buried, descended into hell, and on the third day rose aain from the dead, ascended into heaven, sitteth at the right hand of God, the Father Almighty, and from thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead? A. We do.
P. Do you believe that the Third Person of the Blessed Trinity, God the Holy Ghost, enables us to live and accomplish what is right and just, and that without His grace no one can be saved? A. We do.
P. Do you believe in and openly profess the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, the Communion of Saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and life everlasting? A. We do.
P. If you have firmly resolved to live in accordance with the holy doctrine of Christ, ever to remain faithful to His Church, to avoid sin, to love God with your whole heart, and your neighbor as yourself, declare now this your will, and promise in the presence of the All-seeing God, before your parents, teachers, and the whole congregration. A. This we have firmly resolved and do no solemnly promise in the presence of the All-seeing God, our Lord and Savior, before our parents, pastor, teachers, and the whole congregration.

Now that you have been baptized, study this prayer, now the sentiment of this prayer and know that your Catholic brothers believe and say this prayer, cmon board little children, there’s room for many amore…

 

[hn160]

Fantastic. Recognize that everytime you see a Catholic signing themselves it is a sign of recognition of belief in the Trinity. There are a few out there that deny it. Recognize that it is also a recollection of our Baptismal Vow. If you have occasion to be a part of a baptism during a mass here is what you will hear. We recognize our personal lord and savior.

Now that you have been baptized, study this prayer, now the sentiment of this prayer and know that your Catholic brothers believe and say this prayer, cmon board little children, there’s room for many amore…

Catholics are not the only ones that sign themselves, Lutherans also sign themselves in recognition of their Baptism.

 

[CopticChristian]

Catholics are not the only ones that sign themselves, Lutherans also sign themselves in recognition of their Baptism.

also sign themselves in recognition of their Baptism.

This is Catholic Answers and I was giving a Catholic Answer to what appeared to be a resonse that Baptism had been accomplished. I was not sure if the person baptized was Catholic or not so I put it out there what a Catholic does.

Do you sign right to left or left to right?

 

[wondrousgnat]

I believe that abortion, porn, greed and other sins are rampant because Christians are so much in conflict over doctrinal matters that our inability to unite allows sin to proliferate.

 

[CopticChristian]

I believe that abortion, porn, greed and other sins are rampant because Christians are so much in conflict over doctrinal matters that our inability to unite allows sin to proliferate.

I believe you have concern. I understand that sin is in the world. Doctrinal conflict is doctrinal conflict. Rome and Eastern Orthodox are divided and may unite and sin will remain in the world.

 

[awantz]

Fantastic. Recognize that everytime you see a Catholic signing themselves it is a sign of recognition of belief in the Trinity. There are a few out there that deny it. Recognize that it is also a recollection of our Baptismal Vow. If you have occasion to be a part of a baptism during a mass here is what you will hear. We recognize our personal lord and savior.

Now that you have been baptized, study this prayer, now the sentiment of this prayer and know that your Catholic brothers believe and say this prayer, cmon board little children, there’s room for many amore…

I know what the sign of the cross is all about. It’s sad that some deny it. I’ve been a part of multiple infant baptisms in a catholic church. That good, all Christians should. I know what Catholics believe and pray.

 

[Sufjon]

This just happened to my wife who is Catholic. A friend of hers insisted that Catholics are not Christians. This person belongs to a mega church of some sort as I understand it. It follows that my wife is quite upset by the whole thing. Anyway, can someone tell me why it is that some denominations believe that Catholics are not Christians? As most of you know, I am from the SD tradition (Hindu), but very familiar with Catholicism. I am not very familiar with Protestant religions, so can someone tell me what the reasoning is behind some Christian denominations not considering Catholicism to be Christian? It doesn’t make a lot of sense to me because I know that Catholics are most certainly Christians, so I just want to understand the reasoning behind it. If the answer is already in the thread, my apologies.

Your friend,
Sufjon

 

[TrueLight]

I have been to a number of Christian rooms where the question Catholic or Christian came up. Got tired of it after a while and left.
Some anti-Catholics come into Catholic rooms to attack. Yet they never say what their denominations are. I guess if they don’t identify themselves they never are put on the defensive.
While we Catholics are almost always willing to say what we are many Protestants don’t. They often simply say that they are Christian. When I was a Presbyterian I went to a board meeting and heard a church deacon identify himself as being a Christian. I have even heard ordained ministers state “I am not a member of any denomination, I am a Christian. That’s all I need to say.”
For years it has interested me but never quite understood it.

What that means is that the most important thing is that the person is CHRISTIAN.

One may have been raised in one Protestant denomination or in the course of one’s lifetime, may have attended churches in different denominations, but first and foremost one is a Christian. Denomination comes second.

It’s not a matter of being furtive about one’s denomination.

Depending on where in the country one lives, when one says “I’m Christian”, it is often assumed that one is a Protestant Christian.

I guess that’s why Catholics in those areas say “I’m Catholic” to differentiate right away that one is not Protestant.

If a Catholic is speaking to a Muslim or Hindu, then they are more likely to say they’re Christian. If they are speaking to a Protestant, they are more likely to say they’re Catholic.

It’s like a NY’er might tell another NY’er, “I’m Italian”, but if they are visiting Russia, they are more likely to say, “I’m American.”

 

[CopticChristian]

This just happened to my wife who is Catholic. A friend of hers insisted that Catholics are not Christians. This person belongs to a mega church of some sort as I understand it. It follows that my wife is quite upset by the whole thing. Anyway, can someone tell me why it is that some denominations believe that Catholics are not Christians? As most of you know, I am from the SD tradition (Hindu), but very familiar with Catholicism. I am not very familiar with Protestant religions, so can someone tell me what the reasoning is behind some Christian denominations not considering Catholicism to be Christian? It doesn’t make a lot of sense to me because I know that Catholics are most certainly Christians, so I just want to understand the reasoning behind it. If the answer is already in the thread, my apologies.

Your friend,
Sufjon

What they are really saying is based on a mindset from inception of Protestant thought.

This is a mindset. If you study the history of anything that has conflict you will discover the source of that conflict. This is my opinion based on fact.

Protestant thought originated in White Europe, by Catholics like Knox, Zwingli, Calvin and Luther. They started a new religion that denies a Church Authority, states that Believing/Faith is all you need for salvation. Salvation is the reason for believing. They believe that in that salvation they are extrinsically justified, or made right with God, as opposed from the Church that for 1600 years taught extrinsic justification. They deny 7 sacraments and propose 2 ordinances/sacraments, the meaning of which vary by denomination. There is more and if you read original sources, not anothers opinion and filtered source you will gather the differences. These were new thoughts and hence a new religion.

Next understand that the as you read the original documents produced by these Protestants their goal was not to establish a new religion, however by their intentions and actions this is what they proposed. It was their proposal that they were the One Holy Catholic Church, They were the Christians and they were going to destroy that from whence they came and in proclaiming themselves as Christian they would be seen as The legitimate Christian Church. If anyone denies it is a new religion, then all one need do is answer the question? Were Protestants by intention trying to break away so that they could proceed on their own in the way they wished or were they trying to destroy the Church. If the latter, then it is indeed a new religion.

This mindset I have discovered is very Western. I suppose it could be seen elsewhere I have not seen it or been made aware of it.

Examples.

Soccer to the world is football. The United States and Canada started a new game, called it football. We have the NFC, AFC and the CFL. There was a time as you recall we had the WFL. When you speak of football in the world, unless you define your terms there will be confustion.

Baseball is an american sport based on Cricket. We have a world series that the world does not participate in.

You will see many Protestant Churches with similar mindsets. They originated in 1600 and permutations in history along the way. They all have common parents, Anglican, Calvin/Reformed, Lutheran, Baptist, Anabaptist and the like. For instance. Pentacostals can be traced back to the Holiness movement, back to Methodism, back to the Anglicans, etc. Churches may be named “Full Gospel”, as if to say other churches are less than the full gospel, or “bible believing” as if to say other churches are not, or “apostolic” when in fact they have no apostolic lineage, or “non-denominational” as if to say that they include everyone, when in fact they are Protestant and the denomination of “non”.

The short answer is that judgining who is and who isn’t a Christian is a queer practice of Protestant thought. When you hear this think Protestant and then investigate the history of the church they came from.

Catholics believe that anyone Baptized in the trinitarian formula are Christian. If someone says they are Christian, a question may arise as to where they go to church and finally perhaps some declaration, oh you are Protestant.

It would be rare in my opinion, that a Catholic would judge someone to be Christian. We do recognize the aberrant doctrinal issues as they are novel creations dating to 1600.

 

[Sufjon]

What they are really saying is based on a mindset from inception of Protestant thought.

This is a mindset. If you study the history of anything that has conflict you will discover the source of that conflict. This is my opinion based on fact.

Protestant thought originated in White Europe, by Catholics like Knox, Zwingli, Calvin and Luther. They started a new religion that denies a Church Authority, states that Believing/Faith is all you need for salvation. Salvation is the reason for believing. They believe that in that salvation they are extrinsically justified, or made right with God, as opposed from the Church that for 1600 years taught extrinsic justification. They deny 7 sacraments and propose 2 ordinances/sacraments, the meaning of which vary by denomination. There is more and if you read original sources, not anothers opinion and filtered source you will gather the differences. These were new thoughts and hence a new religion.

Next understand that the as you read the original documents produced by these Protestants their goal was not to establish a new religion, however by their intentions and actions this is what they proposed. It was their proposal that they were the One Holy Catholic Church, They were the Christians and they were going to destroy that from whence they came and in proclaiming themselves as Christian they would be seen as The legitimate Christian Church. If anyone denies it is a new religion, then all one need do is answer the question? Were Protestants by intention trying to break away so that they could proceed on their own in the way they wished or were they trying to destroy the Church. If the latter, then it is indeed a new religion.

This mindset I have discovered is very Western. I suppose it could be seen elsewhere I have not seen it or been made aware of it.

Examples.

Soccer to the world is football. The United States and Canada started a new game, called it football. We have the NFC, AFC and the CFL. There was a time as you recall we had the WFL. When you speak of football in the world, unless you define your terms there will be confustion.

Baseball is an american sport based on Cricket. We have a world series that the world does not participate in.

You will see many Protestant Churches with similar mindsets. They originated in 1600 and permutations in history along the way. They all have common parents, Anglican, Calvin/Reformed, Lutheran, Baptist, Anabaptist and the like. For instance. Pentacostals can be traced back to the Holiness movement, back to Methodism, back to the Anglicans, etc. Churches may be named “Full Gospel”, as if to say other churches are less than the full gospel, or “bible believing” as if to say other churches are not, or “apostolic” when in fact they have no apostolic lineage, or “non-denominational” as if to say that they include everyone, when in fact they are Protestant and the denomination of “non”.

The short answer is that judgining who is and who isn’t a Christian is a queer practice of Protestant thought. When you hear this think Protestant and then investigate the history of the church they came from.

Catholics believe that anyone Baptized in the trinitarian formula are Christian. If someone says they are Christian, a question may arise as to where they go to church and finally perhaps some declaration, oh you are Protestant.

It would be rare in my opinion, that a Catholic would judge someone to be Christian. We do recognize the aberrant doctrinal issues as they are novel creations dating to 1600.

Hi CopticChristian: Thanks very much for the reply. What you are saying makes sense. Sounds like there is not a particular doctrine that causes these people to think of Catholics as something other than Christian, but more of a mindset of cultural thing. I think I understand somewhat.

Thanks again.

Your friend,
Sufjon

 

[CopticChristian]

Hi CopticChristian: Thanks very much for the reply. What you are saying makes sense. Sounds like there is not a particular doctrine that causes these people to think of Catholics as something other than Christian, but more of a mindset of cultural thing. I think I understand somewhat.

Thanks again.

Your friend,
Sufjon

Thank you,

Now that you have that understanding the notion is that when Protestant thought originated they declared themselves to be the Christians and the Catholic Church from whence they came they declared to be a product of none other than satan. The Pope was called the Anti-christ, the Church the whore of babylon, and many Protestant sites declare the Catholic church to be a cult. This thought translates time and now you will understand how it is someone might ask that question.

 

[guanophore]

I believe that abortion, porn, greed and other sins are rampant because Christians are so much in conflict over doctrinal matters that our inability to unite allows sin to proliferate.

I believe you have concern. I understand that sin is in the world. Doctrinal conflict is doctrinal conflict. Rome and Eastern Orthodox are divided and may unite and sin will remain in the world.

You are quite right, Coptic. Sin exists and is rampant because the devil is the god of this world. That being said, the unification of the Body will enable the Church to more effectively storm the gates of hell, so that sin does not proliferate.