Catholic or Orthodox

[jam070406]

And as a member of the Orthodox Church he is fully in line with the church believing that, in fact he is probably in line with the majority of Orthodox Christians there. However getting individual thoughts is not the same thing as getting the actual position, which as has been stated a million times is that we have no doctrine on what happens between death and the last judgement, and this alone puts us at odds with the Catholic Church without saying you are wrong.

These sort of discussions go no where but round and round.
I apologize to anyone I’ve offended and I’m gonna bow out from these sort of endless, fruitless discussions. I have great respect for the Orthodox Church.

peace and blessings!

 

[dzheremi]

I completely agree with Jam that these Catholic/Orthodox discussions only go in circles. I don’t see how anyone could expect anything else when the Catholic side sees differences as more or less purely semantic while the Orthodox side sees them as substantial. Unfortunately because of the high stakes of the arguments, neither is inclined to move over to the other side’s way of seeing things. I personally see that fact as evidence in and of itself of the seriousness of the differences (i.e., if it’s just a matter of believing in essentially the same thing but expressing it differently, why on earth would you prefer a dogmatic pronouncement on something that it is apparently just fine for the other guys to not have any such ruling on?).

This reminds me of something interesting I heard recently in a sermon on the Holy Trinity given by a Coptic Orthodox priest. His position was that we Christians do not worship the same God as the Jews or the Muslims, and in fact should be more confident in leaving aside this term “God” in favor of “the Holy Trinity” to make it explicitly clear what we believe. The point is not that we don’t worship “God” (because the Holy Trinity is God), but that simply saying “we worship God” and leaving it at that opens things up to all kinds of misunderstanding and vagueness. Almost all religions say they worship “God”, so the details can’t and shouldn’t be glossed over, lest we fall pray to the modern heresy of all religions essentially being equal, all gods being God, etc. I would say something similar with regard to Catholic-Orthodox discussions here on CAF or anywhere: If “they believe in the same thing, just think of it differently” is any kind of argument to you, then you’re really not giving “them” (whoever they are) serious consideration, and you’re hurting your own argument in the process. How can it be that other churches or religions that openly reject this or that point of Catholic dogma are nonetheless in harmony with it in some way (just with their “own way” of understanding)? I used to tear my hair out trying to make it make sense, but then I finally stopped lying to myself long enough to realize that it’s actually very easy: Just deny the substance of the difference and you’ll never have to come up with any sort of argument in response to conflict, because you won’t have to actually recognize that there are fundamental differences that are meaningful. So long as the Orthodox have something that I can believe is roughly analogous to purgatory, then I can believe that we both believe in purgatory; So long as Muslims believe in something that is roughly analogous to God, then I can say we both believe in God; So long as…

This is a Pandora’s box I think the Orthodox are very wise in not opening.

 

[Nine_Two]

I completely agree with Jam that these Catholic/Orthodox discussions only go in circles. I don’t see how anyone could expect anything else when the Catholic side sees differences as more or less purely semantic while the Orthodox side sees them as substantial. Unfortunately because of the high stakes of the arguments, neither is inclined to move over to the other side’s way of seeing things. I personally see that fact as evidence in and of itself of the seriousness of the differences (i.e., if it’s just a matter of believing in essentially the same thing but expressing it differently, why on earth would you prefer a dogmatic pronouncement on something that it is apparently just fine for the other guys to not have any such ruling on?).

This reminds me of something interesting I heard recently in a sermon on the Holy Trinity given by a Coptic Orthodox priest. His position was that we Christians do not worship the same God as the Jews or the Muslims, and in fact should be more confident in leaving aside this term “God” in favor of “the Holy Trinity” to make it explicitly clear what we believe. The point is not that we don’t worship “God” (because the Holy Trinity is God), but that simply saying “we worship God” and leaving it at that opens things up to all kinds of misunderstanding and vagueness. Almost all religions say they worship “God”, so the details can’t and shouldn’t be glossed over, lest we fall pray to the modern heresy of all religions essentially being equal, all gods being God, etc. I would say something similar with regard to Catholic-Orthodox discussions here on CAF or anywhere: If “they believe in the same thing, just think of it differently” is any kind of argument to you, then you’re really not giving “them” (whoever they are) serious consideration, and you’re hurting your own argument in the process. How can it be that other churches or religions that openly reject this or that point of Catholic dogma are nonetheless in harmony with it in some way (just with their “own way” of understanding)? I used to tear my hair out trying to make it make sense, but then I finally stopped lying to myself long enough to realize that it’s actually very easy: Just deny the substance of the difference and you’ll never have to come up with any sort of argument in response to conflict, because you won’t have to actually recognize that there are fundamental differences that are meaningful. So long as the Orthodox have something that I can believe is roughly analogous to purgatory, then I can believe that we both believe in purgatory; So long as Muslims believe in something that is roughly analogous to God, then I can say we both believe in God; So long as…

This is a Pandora’s box I think the Orthodox are very wise in not opening.

Well said.

 

[JohnVIII]

The question is flawed. It should not be “Catholic or Orthodox”, it should be “Catholic and Orthodox”.

All who eat the Body and Blood of Christ are in communion with Christ! If Catholics are in communion with Christ and Orthodox are in communion with Christ, then it has to be also true that Catholics are in communion with Orthodox through Christ! Think of it as double-communion if you wish, but the fact is that all who are in Christ are ONE. Christ cannot be divided. If both Catholic and Orthodox commune the true Body and Blood of Christ then any so called “schism” is impossible. No need to choose one over the other.

 

[Bluegoat]

Well said.

Except the wrong parts. But as far as the point of this discussion goes, yes.

 

[Mickey]

we have no doctrine on what happens between death and the last judgement, and this alone puts us at odds with the Catholic Church without saying you are wrong.

St Mark of Ephesus pray for us.

 

[Contarini]

I completely agree with Jam that these Catholic/Orthodox discussions only go in circles. I don’t see how anyone could expect anything else when the Catholic side sees differences as more or less purely semantic while the Orthodox side sees them as substantial. Unfortunately because of the high stakes of the arguments, neither is inclined to move over to the other side’s way of seeing things. I personally see that fact as evidence in and of itself of the seriousness of the differences (i.e., if it’s just a matter of believing in essentially the same thing but expressing it differently, why on earth would you prefer a dogmatic pronouncement on something that it is apparently just fine for the other guys to not have any such ruling on?).

This reminds me of something interesting I heard recently in a sermon on the Holy Trinity given by a Coptic Orthodox priest. His position was that we Christians do not worship the same God as the Jews or the Muslims, and in fact should be more confident in leaving aside this term “God” in favor of “the Holy Trinity” to make it explicitly clear what we believe. The point is not that we don’t worship “God” (because the Holy Trinity is God), but that simply saying “we worship God” and leaving it at that opens things up to all kinds of misunderstanding and vagueness. Almost all religions say they worship “God”, so the details can’t and shouldn’t be glossed over, lest we fall pray to the modern heresy of all religions essentially being equal, all gods being God, etc. I would say something similar with regard to Catholic-Orthodox discussions here on CAF or anywhere: If “they believe in the same thing, just think of it differently” is any kind of argument to you, then you’re really not giving “them” (whoever they are) serious consideration, and you’re hurting your own argument in the process. How can it be that other churches or religions that openly reject this or that point of Catholic dogma are nonetheless in harmony with it in some way (just with their “own way” of understanding)? I used to tear my hair out trying to make it make sense, but then I finally stopped lying to myself long enough to realize that it’s actually very easy: Just deny the substance of the difference and you’ll never have to come up with any sort of argument in response to conflict, because you won’t have to actually recognize that there are fundamental differences that are meaningful. So long as the Orthodox have something that I can believe is roughly analogous to purgatory, then I can believe that we both believe in purgatory; So long as Muslims believe in something that is roughly analogous to God, then I can say we both believe in God; So long as…

This is a Pandora’s box I think the Orthodox are very wise in not opening.

I think this is a very good statement of at least one fairly common Orthodox attitude. This attitude is also one of the main reasons why I think I will never become Orthodox. I’ll grant you that the “all-or-nothing” approach has a basis in tradition, in the form of the Fathers’ uncompromising attitude to heresy. But the other approach has an equally venerable basis, in the early Christian apologists’ approach to pagan philosophy (which I would argue goes all the way back to the NT, most notably Acts 17).

The position you have outlined above seems to imply that non-Orthodox Christians don’t worship the true God. After all, as some Orthodox point out, we have a different Trinity (with the Holy Spirit proceeding from the Son). Perhaps you’re willing to go that far. If you are, we can take the discussion from there–or maybe there really isn’t much room for discussion at that point.

But if you aren’t willing to say that, then I think your position collapses, because you have to grant that with regard to the Trinity it is possible to be “partly right” in a way that has some significance.

Edwin

 

[jam070406]

I think this is a very good statement of at least one fairly common Orthodox attitude. This attitude is also one of the main reasons why I think I will never become Orthodox. I’ll grant you that the “all-or-nothing” approach has a basis in tradition, in the form of the Fathers’ uncompromising attitude to heresy. But the other approach has an equally venerable basis, in the early Christian apologists’ approach to pagan philosophy (which I would argue goes all the way back to the NT, most notably Acts 17).

The position you have outlined above seems to imply that non-Orthodox Christians don’t worship the true God. After all, as some Orthodox point out, we have a different Trinity (with the Holy Spirit proceeding from the Son). Perhaps you’re willing to go that far. If you are, we can take the discussion from there–or maybe there really isn’t much room for discussion at that point.

But if you aren’t willing to say that, then I think your position collapses, because you have to grant that with regard to the Trinity it is possible to be “partly right” in a way that has some significance.

Edwin

I agree with you. Although it wouldn’t suprise me if he claimed Catholics don’t worship the same God as Orthodox. The Orthodox on these boards go to great lengths, and great detail, to display they are NOT anything like Catholics. And I’m beginning to agree and I suppose I can’t blame them because of the mixed messages from Rome. Although, I do believe it’s pushed some to a far opposite extreme.

Dzheremi’s own theory could go the other way. In his attempt to not be like other groups (to the point of not using the word God), what would he reduce Catholics to after the giant leap of comparing us to Muslims? Orthodox worship the trinity, Catholics worship…? a different trinity?

peace

 

[dzheremi]

I agree with you. Although it wouldn’t suprise me if he claimed Catholics don’t worship the same God as Orthodox.

And yet I didn’t do that. Come on…I gave the Catholic Church a good 5 years of my life, and that period was a period of intense spiritual growth that brought me to where I am today. Why would I turn around then and make all sorts of claims against Catholics, and on a Catholic messageboard? That would be cruel, and ridiculous. My only point in that reply was that glossing over details gets you nowhere, and within the context of the OP it is a point that I feel needs to be made, because it certainly is not made by Catholic apologists. The way that they approach the faith does not foster that kind of understanding.

The Orthodox on these boards go to great lengths, and great detail, to display they are NOT anything like Catholics.

Maybe that is true of some Orthodox, but what does that have to do with me or what I’ve argued? I’m not in communion with them, either. I’m posting my own thoughts, not some imagined “Orthodox party line”.

Dzheremi’s own theory could go the other way.

I don’t think it is my own theory to begin with. I am basing it on the words of the Pope of Alexandria and some Coptic sermons I have heard that give me a good picture of how that community approaches the faith. I rather prefer that to the RC approach that I struggled with previously. I think of it as sort of “cutting out the middle man” in the way that it lays very bare the core beliefs by which it operates, rather than saying this or that to some other group in an attempt to be nice by lying, or at least obfuscating. Since I think that preserving the faith is much more important than trying to be all things to all people (only our Lord could do that, and He obviously didn’t get everyone to like Him, so…), I prefer the Orthodox way of looking at things. That’s all.

In his attempt to not be like other groups (to the point of not using the word God), what would he reduce Catholics to after the giant leap of comparing us to Muslims? Orthodox worship the trinity, Catholics worship…? a different trinity?

Whoa, hold on a second. First of all, the sermon in question (available here) does not say that we ought not use the word “God”, and neither did I. What Fr. Anthony says and what I wrote is that the word “God” is not the most precise word we could use in all contexts – all religions say they worship “God”, so it doesn’t really mean anything in particular to affirm that in mixed religious company. I stand by that, it’s true, and it has nothing to do with my “attempt to not be like other groups”. That is not even close to where I’m coming from. Secondly, I’m not comparing you or Catholics in general to Muslims. I’m saying that the impulse to avoid digging into the details concerning the Orthodox differences with the Catholics has other corollaries with regard to similar situations, like the differences between Catholics and Muslims (sorry, but this really is the most glaring example, as widespread Catholic dissent from the official Church position on Muslims shows). I call this a “corollary” rather than a parallel because I believe it flows naturally from the Catholic approach to the Christian faith. It has nothing to do with me not wanting to be like you (I already am, in many ways), and everything to do with me not seeing the faith in the same way that you do. As HH Pope Shenouda III said in the video I posted, it is not good to do things for surface reasons. Everything must have depth and seriousness. I think this view naturally precludes me being Catholic because when details are glossed over, ignored, or explained away, all that we can be left with are surface explanations and surface understandings because that’s all there is if we refuse to look deeper than that, or take those who we disagree with at their word that there are substantial differences to be explored (even if we don’t automatically see where those differences lie; This is all the more reason to look seriously at them, isn’t it? Because we want to actually make progress in discussions with others?). Please, please, please do not make this about “me” vs. “you”. I’m not against you, either as an Orthodox person (because I’m NOT an Orthodox person) or in any other way. It has to do with different approaches to the faith, not a kind of doctrinal chauvinism.

I love Catholics! I just don’t see a place for me in Catholicism, for the reasons given above.

 

[Mickey]

The position you have outlined above seems to imply that non-Orthodox Christians don’t worship the true God.

Do the Episcopalians and/or the Roman Catholics believe that they worship the same God as the muslims?

After all, as some Orthodox point out, we have a different Trinity (with the Holy Spirit proceeding from the Son). Perhaps you’re willing to go that far. If you are, we can take the discussion from there–or maybe there really isn’t much room for discussion at that point.

If you do a simple search, you will find many threads on the Filioque.

 

[Bluegoat]

And yet I didn’t do that. Come on…I gave the Catholic Church a good 5 years of my life, and that period was a period of intense spiritual growth that brought me to where I am today. Why would I turn around then and make all sorts of claims against Catholics, and on a Catholic messageboard? That would be cruel, and ridiculous. My only point in that reply was that glossing over details gets you nowhere, and within the context of the OP it is a point that I feel needs to be made, because it certainly is not made by Catholic apologists. The way that they approach the faith does not foster that kind of understanding.

Maybe that is true of some Orthodox, but what does that have to do with me or what I’ve argued? I’m not in communion with them, either. I’m posting my own thoughts, not some imagined “Orthodox party line”.

I don’t think it is my own theory to begin with. I am basing it on the words of the Pope of Alexandria and some Coptic sermons I have heard that give me a good picture of how that community approaches the faith. I rather prefer that to the RC approach that I struggled with previously. I think of it as sort of “cutting out the middle man” in the way that it lays very bare the core beliefs by which it operates, rather than saying this or that to some other group in an attempt to be nice by lying, or at least obfuscating. Since I think that preserving the faith is much more important than trying to be all things to all people (only our Lord could do that, and He obviously didn’t get everyone to like Him, so…), I prefer the Orthodox way of looking at things. That’s all.

Whoa, hold on a second. First of all, the sermon in question (available here) does not say that we ought not use the word “God”, and neither did I. What Fr. Anthony says and what I wrote is that the word “God” is not the most precise word we could use in all contexts – all religions say they worship “God”, so it doesn’t really mean anything in particular to affirm that in mixed religious company. I stand by that, it’s true, and it has nothing to do with my “attempt to not be like other groups”. That is not even close to where I’m coming from. Secondly, I’m not comparing you or Catholics in general to Muslims. I’m saying that the impulse to avoid digging into the details concerning the Orthodox differences with the Catholics has other corollaries with regard to similar situations, like the differences between Catholics and Muslims (sorry, but this really is the most glaring example, as widespread Catholic dissent from the official Church position on Muslims shows). I call this a “corollary” rather than a parallel because I believe it flows naturally from the Catholic approach to the Christian faith. It has nothing to do with me not wanting to be like you (I already am, in many ways), and everything to do with me not seeing the faith in the same way that you do. As HH Pope Shenouda III said in the video I posted, it is not good to do things for surface reasons. Everything must have depth and seriousness. I think this view naturally precludes me being Catholic because when details are glossed over, ignored, or explained away, all that we can be left with are surface explanations and surface understandings because that’s all there is if we refuse to look deeper than that, or take those who we disagree with at their word that there are substantial differences to be explored (even if we don’t automatically see where those differences lie; This is all the more reason to look seriously at them, isn’t it? Because we want to actually make progress in discussions with others?). Please, please, please do not make this about “me” vs. “you”. I’m not against you, either as an Orthodox person (because I’m NOT an Orthodox person) or in any other way. It has to do with different approaches to the faith, not a kind of doctrinal chauvinism.

I love Catholics! I just don’t see a place for me in Catholicism, for the reasons given above.

I understand what you are saying here, and agree. But I am not sure why you would say, OTOH, that the Orthodox and Catholics worship the same God, when the OC thinks that the CC has an incorrect understanding of the Trinity; and that Jews and Muslims do not, because they d not understand the Trinity? In the case of Catholics, from an Orthodoc perspective they have compromised the position of the Father, while the Jews and Muslims have misunderstood the son and the HG. ( It seems pretty clear to me that this is also how the EC understood the Jews and pagans, even in Scripture.)

What is the difference, theologically, between the two mistakes?

 

[Bluegoat]

Do the Episcopalians and/or the Roman Catholics believe that they worship the same God as the muslims?
If you do a simple search, you will find many threads on the Filioque.

Yes. Muslims have misunderstood the Trinity, but they understand him as the underlying, self-existant, uncreated, and totally unique source of all being.

Which is NOT true of all religious traditions - Mormonism is a modern example - though it is true of many.

 

[dzheremi]

What makes you think I’m making any kind of claim about Catholic worship to begin with, Bluegoat? I’m commenting on the tendency that I see on the part of Catholics to avoid details, not on who or what Catholics or Orthodox may be worshiping. Since I am not Catholic or Orthodox, I really don’t think I’m in a good position to condemn or judge anyone for their beliefs. Instead, I am arguing against a given approach. If/when Orthodox argue as Catholics do, I am against that, too.

I learned plenty from my CCC 841 thread. I’m not turning this one into a replay of that.

 

[Mickey]

I agree with you.

Do Roman Catholics believe they worship the same God as Muslims?

The Orthodox on these boards go to great lengths, and great detail, to display they are NOT anything like Catholics.

You think so?!?

 

[Mickey]

Yes.

Are you speaking for the Anglicans or the RC’s?

 

[Nine_Two]

The Orthodox on these boards go to great lengths, and great detail, to display they are NOT anything like Catholics.

And the Catholics go to great lengths to display that we are all exactly the same, usually by interpreting things as loosely as possible. If you truly believe as we believe, than Rome should have no trouble rejoining our communion.

 

[jam070406]

And the Catholics go to great lengths to display that we are all exactly the same, usually by interpreting things as loosely as possible. If you truly believe as we believe, than Rome should have no trouble rejoining our communion.

I suppose you are correct.

 

[agent_grey]

As long as the bread and wine become the body and blood of Christ the gathering is in the name of Christ.

 

[Bluegoat]

Are you speaking for the Anglicans or the RC’s?

Yes. The Catholic CCC says explicitly that Muslims (as a group) worship the same God as Christianity and Judaism. Anglicans don’t have any kind of similar compendium of beliefs, and have no obligations on the point, but most would agree.

They would say that Muslims are confused about God, in some cases even culpably so, but have recognized him in part of his Divine Nature.

 

[dvdjs]

I’m not sure what you are finding confusing. God is not bound by time. For our prayers to be “effectual” in some way for those who are dead does not mean that they need to be in purgatory. God in the moment of creation takes into account each action of each individual throughout history, including our prayers. We have no idea how they might be accounted for, or effectual, or answered.

But you are innovating here, AFAIK. I have asked, but there has been no response that suggests that the theory of the efficacy of prayer that you are suggesting has any precedent among the fathers, or any hierarch.

This question of purgatory really gets into other questions, such as the Orthodox understanding off Heaven and Hell, and whether it is possible to change our disposition after death. Orthodoxy doesn’t always have a clear dogmatic answer to this as far as i can see. However, they do clearly reject the Catholic understanding of Purgatory which has other elements, as well as the idea of making it an item required for belief.

Well, one can extend the discussion from purgatory to other topics (but then you have changed the subject). But if you narrow the topic to Purgatory, the situation is different than you contend. Yes, some Orthodox claim a clear rejection of Catholic teaching on Purgatory, but when you ask you find that they either have a mistaken idea of Catholic teaching or are actually talking about “other questions”. It is a sad fact. If you look on the many threads on the subject you will find questions about “fire” and about “place” that have never been a real issue. It is also sad that many people are unwilling to learn, but tend to hold on to misunderstandings that are cherished for their polemical value. It is interesting and worth noting: where is the definition on this thread of Catholic dogma on purgatory? Whose remarks adhere to the meaning in Catholic dogma?

Aikin’s article doesn’t suggest that his thinking on the topic really even got that far, and these are substantial issues - it didn’t even get as far as “God can address our prayers for the dead even if there is no purgatory”. It’s just not that impressive

.
Well yes it is not impressive. But neither is your argument. You point out a flaw in his logic - he does not consider the alternatives that you do. But, inasmuch as these alternatives represent a view that have not been supported with precedent, their weight is limited. Yes he lacks rigor, but your point is at an academic one.