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Again with the Islam debate? I keep getting notifications about new posts in different threads, but I’m starting to get confused because they all have the same content no matter what the thread: Islam! I’m sure Muhammad’s ears are burning…

Paul wrote what I consider the final word in all these discussions (I just posted it in another, but it’s versatile):

14 Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness? 15 And what accord has Christ with Belial? Or what part has a believer with an unbeliever?

That pretty much says it all. You can try to wiggle out of it or around it with all the pretty ecumenical words you want, but it stands plain and you show where your true sympathies lie every time you put some other principle ahead of it. (“Oh, but maybe if we’re really, really nice and minimize the falsehood of Islam/truth of Christianity, Muslims will love us and convert because we were so nice!” Nope. Not how it works. Muslims who convert do so because they’re convinced that we have the TRUE GOD, which we do and they do not. Deny that and they’ll never see otherwise.)
 
dzheremi said:
Paul wrote what I consider the final word in all these discussions (I just posted it in another, but it’s versatile):

14 Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness? 15 And what accord has Christ with Belial? Or what part has a believer with an unbeliever?

That pretty much says it all. You can try to wiggle out of it or around it with all the pretty ecumenical words you want, but it stands plain and you show where your true sympathies lie every time you put some other principle ahead of it. (“Oh, but maybe if we’re really, really nice and minimize the falsehood of Islam/truth of Christianity, Muslims will love us and convert because we were so nice!” Nope. Not how it works. Muslims who convert do so because they’re convinced that we have the TRUE GOD, which we do and they do not. Deny that and they’ll never see otherwise.)
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Indeed! 🙂
 
Great post, Mickey. Well-said and dittoes.:cool:
Mickey said:
A false prophet revealed a false god to them. Seems rather clear.

We know God by His Energies…but we can never know His Essence. And of course, God the Son was revealed to us in the flesh.

Christ and the Father are One (John 10:30), and Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father (I John 2:23). Christ Himself is the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father except by Him (John 14:6).
You Orthodox? Rather condescending eh?

You can say what you want. Ironically, your ecumenist approach to Islam is not something that I care to emulate.

Sticks and stones do not hurt this “hardliner”. :rotfl:
He created us out of pure and divine love. And He also revealed His Son to us–and the Holy Spirit proceeded from Him.
Yes. Erroneous is an understatement. I pray for Islam—but I cannot pray with them.

“Mohammad came with war, knives, pillaging, forced enslavements, murders & acts that are not from the Good God, but instigated by the chief manslayer, the devil.”
St Gregory Palamas
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dzheremi said:
Again with the Islam debate? I keep getting notifications about new posts in different threads, but I’m starting to get confused because they all have the same content no matter what the thread: Islam! I’m sure Muhammad’s ears are burning…

Paul wrote what I consider the final word in all these discussions (I just posted it in another, but it’s versatile):

14 Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness? 15 And what accord has Christ with Belial? Or what part has a believer with an unbeliever?

That pretty much says it all. You can try to wiggle out of it or around it with all the pretty ecumenical words you want, but it stands plain and you show where your true sympathies lie every time you put some other principle ahead of it. (“Oh, but maybe if we’re really, really nice and minimize the falsehood of Islam/truth of Christianity, Muslims will love us and convert because we were so nice!” Nope. Not how it works. Muslims who convert do so because they’re convinced that we have the TRUE GOD, which we do and they do not. Deny that and they’ll never see otherwise.)
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The idea of Mohammad’s ears burning strikes me funny for some reason.

Anyway, I am not generally a fan of the kind of interfaith stuff you are talking about. There is a place for certain kinds of inter-faith work, but they need to be carefully chosen. I am not even much of a fan of much ecumenical stuff that is commonly seen.

I would never say that all religions are just different paths to God, or equally true, or any of that blather.

That is not the same as saying that Islam, or other religions, has not discerned any truth about God. I am not sure how any catholic or orthodox Christianity could maintain that they have not, since they believe that we are all connected to God whether we know it, or accept it, or not. It seems like a fundamentalist position to me.

And what does all this talk of praying with people have to do with it, or saying that their beliefs are as correct as others, or whatever. That seems like it is from out in left field - it in no way follows from what anyone has said.
 
There is also the people-deceiving cult (threskeia) of the Ishmaelites, the forerunner of the Antichrist, which prevails until now. It derives from Ishmael, who was born to Abraham from Hagar, wherefore they are called Hagarenes and Ishmaelites. And they call them Saracens, inasmuch as they were [sent away] empty-handed by Sarah (ek tes Sarras kenous); for it was said to the angel by Hagar: “Sarah has sent me away empty-handed” (cf. Genesis xxi. 10, 14).
These, then, were idolators and worshippers of the morning star and Aphrodite whom in fact they called Chabar in their own language, which means “great.” So until the times of Heraclius they were plain idolators. From that time till now a false prophet appeared among them, surnamed Muhammad (Mamed), who, having happened upon the Old and the New Testament and apparently having conversed, in like manner, with an Arian monk, put together his own heresy. And after ingratiating himself with the people by a pretense of piety, he spread rumours of a scripture (graphe) brought down to him from heaven. So, having drafted some ludicrous doctrines in his book, he handed over to them this form of worship (to sebas).
St John** of Damascus**
 
Mickey said:
There is also the people-deceiving cult (threskeia) of the Ishmaelites, the forerunner of the Antichrist, which prevails until now. It derives from Ishmael, who was born to Abraham from Hagar, wherefore they are called Hagarenes and Ishmaelites. And they call them Saracens, inasmuch as they were [sent away] empty-handed by Sarah (ek tes Sarras kenous); for it was said to the angel by Hagar: “Sarah has sent me away empty-handed” (cf. Genesis xxi. 10, 14).
These, then, were idolators and worshippers of the morning star and Aphrodite whom in fact they called Chabar in their own language, which means “great.” So until the times of Heraclius they were plain idolators. From that time till now a false prophet appeared among them, surnamed Muhammad (Mamed), who, having happened upon the Old and the New Testament and apparently having conversed, in like manner, with an Arian monk, put together his own heresy. And after ingratiating himself with the people by a pretense of piety, he spread rumours of a scripture (graphe) brought down to him from heaven. So, having drafted some ludicrous doctrines in his book, he handed over to them this form of worship (to sebas).
St John** of Damascus**
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Doesn’t St. John say, those that deny Christ are Antichrist? And yet some who call themselves Christ’s followers will jump through hoops to defend these Antichrist. 🤷
 
Explain…:confused:
Bluegoat said:
That is not the same as saying that Islam, or other religions, has not discerned any truth about God. I am not sure how any catholic or orthodox Christianity could maintain that they have not, since they believe that we are all connected to God whether we know it, or accept it, or not. It seems like a fundamentalist position to me.
.
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Bluegoat said:
That is not the same as saying that Islam, or other religions, has not discerned any truth about God. I am not sure how any catholic or orthodox Christianity could maintain that they have not, since they believe that we are all connected to God whether we know it, or accept it, or not. It seems like a fundamentalist position to me.
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So Sts. Paul and John Damascene are fundamentalists to you? It is very clear, Bluegoat, that despite the efforts of some to place Muhammad’s religion in some sort of special category of “half-truth” that is somehow good enough to substitute for the true Gospel, it really, really isn’t, and no Christian until our day (infected with a spirit of false ecumenism as it is) ever thought it was.

Regarding whatever “truth” Islam may have discerned about God, two things immediately come to mind:
  1. The saying “Even a stopped clock is right twice a day”;
and
  1. So what? The supposed correctness of any given point of theology doesn’t sustain any activity with Muslims beyond pointing out their religion’s errors and praying for them, and we don’t need to engage in any foolish interfaith prayer to do either of those things.
And I would take it further and question what exactly “discerning the truth” about God means, speaking as Christians about a non-Christian religion. Is it that they’ve said statements like “God is greatest” or “There is no God but God” which, while true, are falsified by their referent being Muhammad’s Allah rather than the Trinity? (In other words, they’re right about God, but since Islam does not worship God, they can’t be evidence of a true understanding of God on the part of Muslims, but instead are an understanding of Muhammad’s Allah.)
And what does all this talk of praying with people have to do with it, or saying that their beliefs are as correct as others, or whatever. That seems like it is from out in left field - it in no way follows from what anyone has said.
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This reminds me a bit of the closed communion thread we had a little while ago. Do you recall that one? In it, many people argued against open communion by reminding those of another viewpoint that closed communion protects the church that practices from the errors of others by ensuring that anyone present before the altar does in fact share the same faith as the rest of the communion. It is not exclusive of people but exclusive of doctrine (a point that needed to be made several times to people who thought that denying communion to anyone was “mean”). I view things like this proposed prayer in the same way: You are coming from the outside, with whatever beliefs you have. Fine, have those beliefs and live by them if you want to, but you do not get to approach Christianity’s God, the TRUE GOD, the uncreated and undivided Holy Trinity, and pray using words that endorse heresy, or even if I know ahead of time that you hold a heresy even if you never bring it up around me. It would be foolish of me to offer prayers with you in such an occasion, for exactly the reasons given by Sts. Paul and John Damascene. Our faith is not your faith, so you practice your faith in your own place and pray to your recension of God in that place, and we will pray to God in our place. If you are a Muslim, that place is the mosque and if you are a Christian that place is the church. We can still have friendly relations if you are predisposed towards peaceful coexistence (this is another reason I would not pray with Muslims; they kill us unrepentantly all around the world…let’s deal with that fact, then maybe we’ll be more comfortable around each other), but we will not compromise our religion in order to be nice to you. There’s no need to, and plenty of very solid reasons not to.
 
Good points all. There is some amount of truth in EVERY religion but that doesn’t make the religion The Truth. Kernels of goodness are in all religions because God made men fundamentally good and even amidst the shadows of man-made religion there are ingrained elements of truth and depth of God buried in those shadows.

Charles Martel might also not like the modern kumbaya ecumenical prayer with Muslims, right! 😛 You’re right that until recently Islam was considered completely opposed to Christian values, theology, soteriology, and truth in general. Ecumenism can be taken too far. I’m FINE with working side by side with other religions to relieve world poverty or stop the spread of AIDS, fight hunger, end war and hatred, etc. but to actually PRAY with them and believe somehow they’re all praying to the same source of Truth, I’m scared…😦
dzheremi said:
So Sts. Paul and John Damascene are fundamentalists to you? It is very clear, Bluegoat, that despite the efforts of some to place Muhammad’s religion in some sort of special category of “half-truth” that is somehow good enough to substitute for the true Gospel, it really, really isn’t, and no Christian until our day (infected with a spirit of false ecumenism as it is) ever thought it was.

Regarding whatever “truth” Islam may have discerned about God, two things immediately come to mind:
  1. The saying “Even a stopped clock is right twice a day”;
and
  1. So what? The supposed correctness of any given point of theology doesn’t sustain any activity with Muslims beyond pointing out their religion’s errors and praying for them, and we don’t need to engage in any foolish interfaith prayer to do either of those things.
And I would take it further and question what exactly “discerning the truth” about God means, speaking as Christians about a non-Christian religion. Is it that they’ve said statements like “God is greatest” or “There is no God but God” which, while true, are falsified by their referent being Muhammad’s Allah rather than the Trinity? (In other words, they’re right about God, but since Islam does not worship God, they can’t be evidence of a true understanding of God on the part of Muslims, but instead are an understanding of Muhammad’s Allah.)

This reminds me a bit of the closed communion thread we had a little while ago. Do you recall that one? In it, many people argued against open communion by reminding those of another viewpoint that closed communion protects the church that practices from the errors of others by ensuring that anyone present before the altar does in fact share the same faith as the rest of the communion. It is not exclusive of people but exclusive of doctrine (a point that needed to be made several times to people who thought that denying communion to anyone was “mean”). I view things like this proposed prayer in the same way: You are coming from the outside, with whatever beliefs you have. Fine, have those beliefs and live by them if you want to, but you do not get to approach Christianity’s God, the TRUE GOD, the uncreated and undivided Holy Trinity, and pray using words that endorse heresy, or even if I know ahead of time that you hold a heresy even if you never bring it up around me. It would be foolish of me to offer prayers with you in such an occasion, for exactly the reasons given by Sts. Paul and John Damascene. Our faith is not your faith, so you practice your faith in your own place and pray to your recension of God in that place, and we will pray to God in our place. If you are a Muslim, that place is the mosque and if you are a Christian that place is the church. We can still have friendly relations if you are predisposed towards peaceful coexistence (this is another reason I would not pray with Muslims; they kill us unrepentantly all around the world…let’s deal with that fact, then maybe we’ll be more comfortable around each other), but we will not compromise our religion in order to be nice to you. There’s no need to, and plenty of very solid reasons not to.
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Matter of fact. I can’t think of any truth about Islam, except the outside shot they do in fact worship the God of Abraham, and that also can be debated. But at last we need to hold on to one chip, to start a civil conversation:D

Thats how I see it anyway. And thats not to say these are all bad people, obviously they are not. But then again its not personal, personality inventory we are doing here.
 
GaryTaylor said:
But at last we need to hold on to one chip, to start a civil conversation
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Alas, it is not possible to hold onto “one chip”—because there are no chips to hold onto. Countless Saints have spilled their blood in martyrdom from the time of Mohammed until now. You may want to read some of the lives of these holy men and women. They were tortured beyond imagination. Some were skinned alive. Others were cut into pieces inch by inch. They were burned in oil, incinerated in furnaces, and fed to wild beasts. Thousand upon thousands of these holy martyrs could have avoided all this torture and death if they simply denied Jesus Christ. Guess what? They all preferred death. And the godless saracens were infuriated. Many of these martyrs were unharmed by these gruesome tortures and restored to health by the grace of God which caused the conversion of many Muslims. But eventually, the martyrs and the newly converted were beheaded for the Glory of the Holy Trinity!
 
Mickey said:
Alas, it is not possible to hold onto “one chip”—because there are no chips to hold onto. Countless Saints have spilled their blood in martyrdom from the time of Mohammed until now. You may want to read some of the lives of these holy men and women. They were tortured beyond imagination. Some were skinned alive. Others were cut into pieces inch by inch. They were burned in oil, incinerated in furnaces, and fed to wild beasts. Thousand upon thousands of these holy martyrs could have avoided all this torture and death if they simply denied Jesus Christ. Guess what? They all preferred death. And the godless saracens were infuriated. Many of these martyrs were unharmed by these gruesome tortures and restored to health by the grace of God which caused the conversion of many Muslims. But eventually, the martyrs and the newly converted were beheaded for the Glory of the Holy Trinity!
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I’m familiar, last century alone 45-million were martyred and Turkey led the way. Yet if theres no room for conversation then converstion, then there only remains one alternative which is war.

There must be a starting point in converstion, and that point could never be “your wrong and I’m right”. From this point the only solution is conflict.
 
GaryTaylor said:
There must a starting point in converstion, and that point could never be “your wrong and I’m right”. From this point the only solution is conflict.
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What makes you think…in today’s society…that a starting point will be found now…when the holy saints of the past had to endure martydom. God used these holy martyrs for his purposes to convert many.

I am not saying to be insulting and cruel to Muslims. I am not condoning war. But if you think that somehow praying with them and giving credence to their false religion is going to build bridges, then you have been deceived by the evil one.
 
Mickey said:
What makes you think…in today’s society…that a starting point will be found now…when the holy saints of the past had to endure martydom. God used these holy martyrs for his purposes to convert many.

I am not saying to be insulting and cruel to Muslims. I am not condoning war. But if you think that somehow praying with them and giving credence to their false religion is going to build bridges, then you have been deceived by the evil one.
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Wow , what is your problem. What is your point? We should go to War? I already been there and done that, and have the scars and medals to prove it. You can go to the middle-east right now today if you want to defend moms apple pie. Let me know how you liked it when you get back.

And nobody said anything about praying, martyrs, what are you talking about? Better go back and re-read then get in and out of bed again.:rolleyes:
 
Islam does not seek true dialogue, anyway. The Qur’an and Muhammad’s “common word” is fundamentally different than the Holy Bible’s call “Come, let us reason together”. It is far more important that we look after our own communities than to seek to please or praise the followers of a false religion. As we write these posts on an internet forum, Christianity is being exterminated in the Middle East not because people are not aware of what is going on, but because helping Christians specifically would make “us” (the West, which in the Muslim mind is synonymous with “Christian”) look bad in front of the Muslim majority of the Middle East.

God help us. We’ve lost your spirit. Those who have it are the ones who are dying, and those of us who are blessed with security and ease in life are not replacing them. What shame. 😦
 
This thread is getting off topic. The OP was concerned about the Orthodox (or maybe the Eastern Catholics) and Roman Catholic Churches, not about Islam.
 
I agree, Searn77, and apologize for my part in derailing it, though I will point out that the thread turned the way it did because the differing approaches of the Catholic Church and the Orthodox to other religions is a very good illustration of the differences between the two churches’ approach to the Christian faith. So it’s not entirely outside of the point of the OP.
 
You reminded me of C3PO when he encounters that droid that looked just like him. He says, “how delightful to see a familiar face” to which the droid says “e-chootah!” and
C3PO says, “how rude!” 😛 Droid vulgarity! 😛
Mickey said:
Huh? War? How rude. Such a bizarre post. :whacky:
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