Catholic OR Protestent

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MrPizzaDude

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is the catholic church truly the orginal church? I notice the orthodox church makes this claim as the first church and there are other churches that claim they are the remenant. But what makes the catholic church so special? I mean i see the attacks on it the church, and i am sort of a calvinist due to the predestination thing
 
Hi MrP,

All churches claim to be the one true Church. The original Orthodox and Protestants separated from the Catholic Church, claiming that it went astray. But this goes against the words of Christ, who said, .** I am with you always; yes, to the end of time.’** (Matthew, 28,20)

If the Church went astray then Christ ceased to be with her. Which goes against the Bible. Sure, the Church made mistakes; it’s a divine institutions made up of humans. But it has never taught error.

So stick with the one true Church, through thick and thin. Christ will be with you.

Verbum
 
MrPizzaDude said:
is the catholic church truly the orginal church? I notice the orthodox church makes this claim as the first church and there are other churches that claim they are the remenant. But what makes the catholic church so special? I mean i see the attacks on it the church, and i am sort of a calvinist due to the predestination thing
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Two Churches have valid and verifiable claims to being the original Church - and that is because (in a sense) they both ARE.

The RC and the EO both have verifiable and unbroken succession back to the Apostles. Both therefore have valid sacraments.

JP II referred to the East and West as the two lungs of the Church…

Other churches - the so called “remnant” churches simply do not have the pedigree. In addition, if one looks at the consistent teachings of the Catholic and Orthodox Churches - dating back to antiquity - one does not find many of the things found in the newer versions of Christianity.

Hope this helps a little

Peace
James
 
Its easy to say one is a remnant, but the Orthodox Church not under Rome have a similar structure to your own, they are independent of each other and independent from one country to another, they have No head of the Orthodox Church, each governed separately, and operated separately. They are as old as the Catholic Church but due to a disagreement broke of from Rome, some of the Eastern Rites came back so not only is the Church made up of the Latin Rite but also of 23 Eastern Catholic Rites, its like this
a diamond has many facets, all beautiful in there own right, coming together to form the diamond. Every facet is part of the Church just like the facets of the Solitaire diamond.

Hope this helps.

A good book to read would be the Church Fathers, now there was many Church Fathers, but take one for example, there was Clement of Rome/Ignatius / Augustine some excellent Church Fathers

After reading one of these your mind would be more clear.
 
Sorry forgot to post this for you.

How Old is Your Church?
AUTHOR UNKNOWN

If you are a Lutheran, your religion was founded by Martin Luther, an ex-monk of the Catholic Church, in the year 1517.

If you belong to the Church of England, your religion was founded by King Henry VIII in the year 1534 because the Pope would not grant him a divorce with the right to remarry.

If you are a Presbyterian, your religion was founded by John Knox in Scotland in the year 1560.

If you are a Protestant Episcopalian, your religion was an offshoot of the Church of England founded by Samuel Seabury in the American colonies in the 17th century.

If you are a Congregationalist, your religion was originated by Robert Brown in Holland in 1582.

If you are a Methodist, your religion was launched by John and Charles Wesley in England in 1744.

If you are a Unitarian, Theophilus Lindley founded your church in London in 1774.

If you are a Mormon (Latter Day Saints), Joseph Smith started your religion in Palmyra, N.Y., in 1829.

If you are a Baptist, you owe the tenets of your religion to John Smyth, who launched it in Amsterdam in 1608.

If you are of the Dutch Reformed church, you recognize Michaelis Jones as founder, because he originated your religion in New York in 1628.

If you are a member of the Churches of Christ your church began near the beginning of the 19th century in New England. Abner Jones, Barton Stone and Alexander Campbell were some of the most well known originators of your religion.

If you worship with the Salvation Army, your sect began with William Booth in London in 1865.

If you are a Christian Scientist, you look to 1879 as the year in which your religion was born and to Mrs. Mary Baker Eddy as its founder.

If you belong to one of the religious organizations known as “Church of the Nazarene,” “Pentecostal Gospel,” “Holiness Church,” “Pilgrim Holiness Church,” “Jehovah’s Witnesses,” your religion is one of the hundreds of new sects founded by men within the past century.

If you are Roman Catholic, you know that your religion was founded in the year 33 by Jesus Christ the Son of God, and it is still the same Church.
 
When speaking to each other I think we need to remember in the Gospel :

John said to Him, “Teacher, we saw someone casting out demons in Your name, and we tried to prevent him because he was not following us.” But Jesus said, "Do not hinder him, for there is no one who will perform a miracle in My name, and be able soon afterward to speak evil of Me.…

We need to look for common ground first not our differances and then maybe we can find unity as Jesus prayed for at his last supper.
 
A very interesting post - I never knew the histories of the many denominations!
Thanks for sharing!
 
MrPizzaDude said:
is the catholic church truly the orginal church? I notice the orthodox church makes this claim as the first church and there are other churches that claim they are the remenant. But what makes the catholic church so special? I mean i see the attacks on it the church, and i am sort of a calvinist due to the predestination thing
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Using Scripture, the field can be narrowed down to one. There is only one possible church and if you read Christ’s Holy Word, you will find the passages that will show you which one, because only one will fit.

Its the only church that exists today and has existed since Christ and fits Biblical prophecy.
 
The plot thickens if one asks: are the RC and EO churches denominations of Christ’s body? If they’re denominations, aren’t they part of a greater whole? And if that’s the case, does the claim of being universal become ambiguous?
 
MrPizzaDude said:
is the catholic church truly the orginal church? I notice the orthodox church makes this claim as the first church and there are other churches that claim they are the remenant. But what makes the catholic church so special? I mean i see the attacks on it the church, and i am sort of a calvinist due to the predestination thing
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Well…i guess it comes down to this question…who did Christ say He was going to build His church upon?

And who did Christ pray for to strenghten the others? And the Church that this apostle founded…how has it fulfilled this prayer of Christ? And has any heresy ever infected this apostle’s Apostolic See?
 
Jesus Church is the Catholic Church rather than the Orthodox because Jesus built his church on Peter not Andrew (Matthew 16:18) and gave him the keys (Matthew 18:19) which are symbolised on the vatican flag.

The Protestant “Church” left the Catholic Church, Jesus found a Church with a divinely instituted hierarchy, starting with 12 Bishops and one Pope among them
 
MrPizzaDude said:
is the catholic church truly the orginal church? I notice the orthodox church makes this claim as the first church and there are other churches that claim they are the remenant. But what makes the catholic church so special? I mean i see the attacks on it the church, and i am sort of a calvinist due to the predestination thing
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This article might help you, particularly Part1 no. 6 and 7:
restlesspilgrim.net/blog/2014/04/24/before-300-christianity/
 
Celtic_Maiden said:
If you belong to the Church of England, your religion was founded by King Henry VIII in the year 1534 because the Pope would not grant him a divorce with the right to remarry.
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  • Separated from Rome.
  • Decree of nullity.
 
Celtic_Maiden said:
Sorry forgot to post this for you.

How Old is Your Church?
AUTHOR UNKNOWN

If you are a Lutheran, your religion was founded by Martin Luther, an ex-monk of the Catholic Church, in the year 1517.
.
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From the Apostles Creed
. I believe in the Holy Ghost; the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints; the forgiveness of sins; the resurrection of the body; and the life everlasting. Amen.
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From the Nicene Creed
. And I believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.I acknowledge one Baptism for the remission of sins; and I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.
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These, along with the Athanasian Creed, are confessed by all Lutherans. We pledge ourselves to them. We are members of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, founded by Christ Himself.

Jon
 
Who did Luther succeed in apostolic tradition? The classical theological view has always been that unity, holiness, catholicity and apostolicity are the “four marks” of the Catholic church.

What is the catholicity.

What unity exists, the monarchy of God the Father is represented in the monarchy of His Church.
 
GaryTaylor said:
Who did Luther succeed in apostolic tradition? The classical theological view has always been that unity, holiness, catholicity and apostolicity are the “four marks” of the Catholic church.

What is the catholicity.

What unity exists, the monarchy of God the Father is represented in the monarchy of His Church.
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Lets be clear. Luther died for no one on a cross. He, like all of us, was in need of a redeemer. It is the redeemer who established the Church.
If we are to hold the Church to the first mark, unity, in an institutional sense, then it is difficult to argue that the Church, in any communion, actually exists. OTOH, if we recognize that we are first united, His Church is first united, by baptism, then we are indeed united, and His Church continues in the Church Militant.

Luther was an Augustinian friar. He was incapable to “establish a church”. Lutherans are members of the OHCAC.

Jon
 
JonNC said:
Lets be clear. Luther died for no one on a cross. He, like all of us, was in need of a redeemer. It is the redeemer who established the Church.
If we are to hold the Church to the first mark, unity, in an institutional sense, then it is difficult to argue that the Church, in any communion, actually exists. OTOH, if we recognize that we are first united, His Church is first united, by baptism, then we are indeed united, and His Church continues in the Church Militant.

Luther was an Augustinian friar. He was incapable to “establish a church”. Lutherans are members of the OHCAC.

Jon
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All arguments are difficult and some longer than others, so the marks are not so much characteristics that the church possesses as they are characteristics of Christ’s own activity, we know His activity by His physical reality within to which the Church’s apostolic origin is both within and without time.
 
I find it surprising no one gave importance to church doctrine as the main indicator in identifying the one true Church.

Can a church claiming to be the Church Jesus built teach doctrines not in harmony with the teachings of Christ and His Apostles?

The true Church of God must have "the faith which was once delivered unto the saints” (Jude 1:3).
 
I think it must have in order the theological virtues which is imperative why Faith and Reason come into play. That’s a good point above Jon made as it could lead incorrectly to Faith alone misunderstood. So hope, love and action also come into play more the thinking of Jons point.
 
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