Catholic/Orthodox Dialogue Resumes this week

[Vico]

This, VIENNA, Austria, SEPT. 29, 2010 (Zenit.org), is the only update I’ve seen which came out yesterday, that they concluded their six day meeting.

At least it appears there was good representation:

P.S. VIENNA, Austria, SEPT. 29, 2010 (Zenit.org).- Here is a communique released at the conclusion of the 12th plenary session of the International Mixed Commission for Theological Dialogue Between the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church, which took place Sept. 22-27 in Vienna.

It seems that the rest of the posters are deep in another line of thought.

It is interesting what issues will be worked on for the 13th session in two years.

Who: International Mixed Commission for Theological Dialogue Between the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church

Topic: “The Role of the Bishop of Rome in the Communion of the Church in the First Millennium”, (since Ravenna 2007 [10th session], then Aghios Nikolaos/Crete, Greece, 2008 [document prepared], and Paphos, Cyprus 2009 [11th session], Vienna, Austria 2010 [12th session])

1. it decided that the text (of Paphos, Cyprus 2009) must be further revised
2. it was also decided to form a sub-commission on the theological and ecclesiological aspects of Primacy in its relation to Synodality, to meet in 2011.

Eastern Representatives, the Eastern Orthodox autocephalous:

1. Patriarchate of Bulgaria (absent)
2. Ecumenical Patriarchate
3. Patriarchate of Alexandria
4. Patriarchate of Antioch
5. Patriarchate of Jerusalem
6. Patriarchate of Moscow
7. Patriarchate of Serbia
8. Patriarchate of Romania
9. Patriarchate of Georgia
10. Church of Cyprus
11. Church of Greece
12. Church of Poland
13. Church of Albania
14. Church of the Czech Lands and Slovakia.

Another report on the 28th:
catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=7732

 

[sidbrown]

Eastern Representatives, the Eastern Orthodox autocephalous:

1. Patriarchate of Bulgaria (absent)

And why do you suppose that the Patriarchate of Bulgaria is absent from the discussions?

 

[Vico]

And why do you suppose that the Patriarchate of Bulgaria is absent from the discussions?

They decided not to participate in 2009. The Holy Synod analyzed past meetings and conferences and concluded that the theological Orthodox-Catholic dialogues settled nothing dogmatically.

 

[Nine_Two]

They decided not to participate in 2009. The Holy Synod analyzed past meetings and conferences and concluded that the theological Orthodox-Catholic dialogues settled nothing dogmatically.

From what I’ve read the MP has come to agree with that. I haven’t read the opinions of any other prelates. But it seems whenever one of these meetings are held man Catholics shout and sing that unity is around the corner and the Orthodox prelates are going to suddenly elect to submit fully to the pope.

Even a dog, if you tell it something exciting too often, stops paying attention after a while.

 

[brap]

Good Gosh!

If the lay people in this forum are any reflection of what goes on at that “commission” then it was a complete waste of time.

 

[GaryTaylor]

These are sister churchs in history, and they are going to unite in the near future. Christology is at stake throughout the world. There is no other solution. This is “the solution” to promote eternal life and the life of Jesus Christ. Its not by chance they meet what monthly?

 

[Hesychios]

These are sister churchs in history, and they are going to unite in the near future.

What do you mean by ‘unite’ ?

 

[Ferde_Rombola]

I don’t think you understand the use of the expression. It certainly doesn’t apply to what I wrote.

I understand the term quite well and used it properly.

In message #81 you responded to Marcum’s allegation that the fact you have bishops means you accept that the Church cannot function without human leadership with “Bunk. The fact that we have bishops is because we follow the tradition of the Apostles.”

Your remark is a nonsequitur because the Apostles established the office of bishop precisely to provide human leadership to guide the Church. Your response, therefore, had nothing to do with what Marcum alleged. It avoided the allegation.

I believe the office of bishop was primarily established for liturgical purposes as well as being a primary point of authority in the Church.

I believe you’re wrong and a cursory glance at the writings of Paul, a rudimentory knowledge of the history of the Church and the function of bishops will prove you’re wrong.

“Liturgical purposes” are performed by priests as well as bishops. There is no requirement that bishops perform liturgies except for ordination and confirmation. There is an absolute need for bishops to establish and maintain order in the Church and to teach, sanctify and govern. I’m sure you realize that.

 

[Ferde_Rombola]

You and I might want it, but it is not up to us to make that decision.
As far as I can see, neither side wants to budge from its position, so the prospects look pretty dim to me.

If you read carefully the remarks of the Orthodox laity on this and other places, you will soon realize they are the principle obstacle to unification.

In Orthodoxy, the laity can remove a bishop from his office if they don’t like the way he governs. Their bishops are scared to death of them.

 

[GaryTaylor]

What do you mean by ‘unite’ ?

Ah my brother you caught that. Yes your 100% right thats the wrong word. Full communion is the correct term.

All the right people are in the right positions for this to happen. If this is to happen, then it will happen with those involved now. Of course theres must work and education to be accomplished. But I feel the Holy Spirit is interceeding here. The next 18mths will tell the true story.

 

[GaryTaylor]

If you read carefully the remarks of the Orthodox laity on this and other places, you will soon realize they are the principle obstacle to unification.

In Orthodoxy, the laity can remove a bishop from his office if they don’t like the way he governs. Their bishops are scared to death of them.

I follow you thinking. The meetings of these two churchs isn’t to rule Orthodox under Papal authority.

The thinking here is to have two seperate but the same churchs. Two sister churchs or brother churchs however one choses to describe. The authority of neither church can be subjected to the authority of the other.

Hopefully what can happen is we can meet at this point. Be in full communion with each other. Then somewhere down the road as we learn to live together and agee or disagree on teaching but remain in communion. Eventually the two “will” be on the same page.

Listen, if theres a valid point brought to the table by the Orthodox church, why wouldn’t we be open to the understanding? If in fact someone proves your wrong, would you not change your thinking? This is the open mind both churchs must have. And if we can meet here, then travel together further down the road together. The truth will prevail for all to see.

But to remain as we are, allows all other denominations to further divide Christolgy. At this point, is where we need be concerned. Theres no more time for this. Were flat out of time. I can’t imagine what mankind will look like in another decade of evils escalation.

The history of man, is the war of Good and evil. And were in deep trouble. We need breathing room, we have none. To back up to the point where the split happened, to make ammends and correct error. is the right path.

 

[Vico]

Good Gosh!

If the lay people in this forum are any reflection of what goes on at that “commission” then it was a complete waste of time.

From the satire *Hudibras (Part III, Canto 3) *-- Samuel Butler (an Anglican)

But since I have no other course, 545
But is as bad t’ attempt, or worse,
He that complies against his will,
Is of his own opinion still;
Which he may adhere to, yet disown,
For reasons to himself best known: 550
But ‘tis not to b’ avoided now,
For Sidrophel resolves to sue;
Whom I must answer, or begin
Inevitably first with him.

 

[sidbrown]

These are sister churchs in history, and they are going to unite in the near future.

Really? Do you have some inside information on that? Will Catholics change their mind on papal infallibility, papal supremacy and the filioque?

 

[sidbrown]

There is an absolute need for bishops to establish and maintain order in the Church and to teach, sanctify and govern. .

Yes. And as we know, the Catholic bishops in the USA have been doing a great job in teaching, sanctifying and governing in the area of illegal immigration and in the area of guaranteeing a respectful liturgy.

 

[Ferde_Rombola]

I follow you thinking. The meetings of these two churchs isn’t to rule Orthodox under Papal authority.

In the twilight of his papacy, John Paul II asked the Orthodox bishops to suggest ways in which the Bishop of Rome might exercise his petrine office in a manner acceptable to them. These meetings evolved from that request.

The thinking here is to have two seperate but the same churchs. Two sister churchs or brother churchs however one choses to describe. The authority of neither church can be subjected to the authority of the other.

I don’t know what you’re getting at here, Gary, but that’s the way it is now.

IHopefully what can happen is we can meet at this point. Be in full communion with each other. Then somewhere down the road as we learn to live together and agee or disagree on teaching but remain in communion. Eventually the two “will” be on the same page.

It is impossible, by definition, for our two Churches to be in communion with each other and, at the same time, disagree about the one point of doctrine which overshadows all the rest combined, the authority of the Chair of Peter. The Catholic Church believes Scripture it is clear that the Lord gave to Peter power and authority He gave to no one else and He bestowed it in the presence of all the remaining Apostles so there would be no doubt of His intentions. The Church believes such an authority is essential to unity and a consistent doctrine and that the doctrine of infallibility – of the Pope and of the bishops acting in unity with him – is a guarantor the Church is not teaching error. The Orthodox define the pope variously in a range between a benevolent feudal baron and a Nazi SS general. Very few have a clear concept of the doctrine of infallibility.

The Orthodox believe the Bishop of Rome has a place of honor – not authority – among the rest, that he is the first among equals and that it ends there. They believe there is no final authority bestowed on any individual and that the Church’s infallibility resides in ecumenical councils and nowhere else. The clear language of Mt.16:18-19 means nothing to them and they will appeal to any flimsy excuse to deny it.

The state of Orthodoxy today is such that they haven’t held a council in centuries. In my opinion the reason is they know, before such a council ended, someone would pull out an AK-47 and start blasting away. But that’s just my opinion. I back it up by pointing to the way they deal with each other today.

Listen, if theres a valid point brought to the table by the Orthodox church, why wouldn’t we be open to the understanding?

We would, but a ‘valid point’ would have to be accompanied by Orthodox recognition of the primacy of Peter and his successors as the final arbiter of disputes and doctrine. If you can work that out, you have a deal.

Your ecumenical zeal is laudable, but a tad naive. This is not about open minds. It’s about hostility, arrogance, hubris and pride.

But to remain as we are, allows all other denominations to further divide Christolgy. At this point, is where we need be concerned. Theres no more time for this. Were flat out of time. I can’t imagine what mankind will look like in another decade of evils escalation.

I share your concern. There is no doubt the Prince of this World is having his way right now, but we do have the Lord’s assurance he will not prevail against His Church.

IThe history of man, is the war of Good and evil. And were in deep trouble. We need breathing room, we have none. To back up to the point where the split happened, to make ammends and correct error. is the right path.

That’s what we pray for daily.

[/QUOTE]

 

[sidbrown]

If you read carefully the remarks of the Orthodox laity on this and other places, you will soon realize they are the principle obstacle to unification.
.

That is the Roman Catholic point of view. The Orthodox point of view is quite the reverse. i beleive that things would go a whole lot faster if the Catholics agreed to give up the post 1054 teachings on papal infallibility, universal papal jurisdiction and supremacy and the filioque.

 

[Ferde_Rombola]

Yes. And as we know, the Catholic bishops in the USA have been doing a great job in teaching, sanctifying and governing in the area of illegal immigration and in the area of guaranteeing a respectful liturgy.

Your list could be, and is much longer than that. I referred to a need - not to the leadership of US bishops, which is, admittedly, deplorable.

 

[Ferde_Rombola]

That is the Roman Catholic point of view. The Orthodox point of view is quite the reverse. i beleive that things would go a whole lot faster if the Catholics agreed to give up the post 1054 teachings on papal infallibility, universal papal jurisdiction and supremacy and the filioque.

And I believe the religious affiliation opposite your name is a mistake. If you don’t subscribe to Catholic teaching, please stop calling yourself a Catholic.

 

[sidbrown]

And I believe the religious affiliation opposite your name is a mistake. If you don’t subscribe to Catholic teaching, please stop calling yourself a Catholic.

You don;t have to be Orthodox to know what the Orthodox point of view is.

 

[Vico]

That is the Roman Catholic point of view. The Orthodox point of view is quite the reverse. i beleive that things would go a whole lot faster if the Catholics agreed to give up the post 1054 teachings on papal infallibility, universal papal jurisdiction and supremacy and the filioque.

There are many more dogmas of faith defined than those since the first seven ecumenical councils, as there have been 21 by Catholic count. There has been a serious problem at least since Photius and the rejection of the fourth council of Constantinople of 869-70, recognized by the Catholic Church as the eighth ecumenical council.