Catholic-Orthodox Timeline: Bonocore Responds

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So you don’t have a teaching office? :confused:

So how is this one position enforced?
“Office”? “Enforced”? :confused: I don’t understand what you mean by these two words.

Orthodox people, generally speaking, want to be Orthodox. To the extent that other things might be entering into the lives of traditionally Orthodox people (particularly in the diaspora in the West, where of course there are many different religious alternatives), it’s generally from ignorance which is corrected as necessary in parishes by priests, by bishops, by the Pope, etc. For instance, my bishop, HG Bishop Youssef has a Q & A section on the diocese website, which people can submit questions to (and has recently been published as a book). So the idea that there should be “enforcement”…on one hand, I can understand since you definitely do need to make sure people are actively engaged in learning and living by the correct faith; on the other hand, not everything that may arise in a particular parish or with a particular person requires the intervention of a bishop, or the clarification of a synod, etc. Usually, it is enough that a person be actively participating in the life of the Church by going to liturgy, paying attention and giving responses, receiving the sacraments, etc. And all told, we do see our bishop quite a lot (in the two years I’ve been attending, the bishop has come to us 4 or 5 times, which is pretty good considering what a tiny community we are, and how much territory the bishop has to cover when get visits the churches of the diocese), so there are many opportunities to hear his sermons, receive his guidance and blessings, etc.

As for offices…I’m not sure how to interpret that. The Coptic Orthodox Church in the UK has a media and communications office, if that’s what you mean? (I suspect not.) There have been, in recent history (since Pope Kyrillos VI), what have been called “General Bishops”, though this is rejected or questioned by many people in the Church on principle (including me, as if anyone cares), since bishops are to be tied to particular geographical locations, not general concepts or activities (e.g., HH Pope Tawadros II is, by tradition, the Bishop of Alexandria). Nevertheless, the future HH Pope Shenouda III was, prior to his elevation, one of these “general bishops” – Bishop of Christian Education. He continued the weekly question sessions he had held since those days (when he was, IIRC, Fr. Antonious al-Suryani) after becoming Pope, sometimes even in English, as appropriate to the setting. 🙂

So I would say that these positions, whether as Pope or any other bishop, or as priests, are themselves “teaching offices”, though they are not considered something separate as the RCC might define them.

And, of course, there is the liturgy itself and its hymns, and the Tasbeha/Midnight praises, and various other forms of worship, all of which instruct the faithful perhaps even better than Q&As might (due to their pervasive place in the life of the Church; we really do every year look to Holy Week, for instance, for its very, very long services full of readings, hymns, special melodies and other things that tie us very firmly to the Paschal narrative). It was a few years before I could actually attend a Coptic liturgy, so after leaving the RCC my first real “catechesis”, if you could call it that, was tracking down a liturgy book and learning its hymns in advance of attending an actual church (and later and Agpeya, and a few history books, etc.). They’re very, very instructive. Friends of mine of the Malankara Orthodox Syriac tradition who also know the Coptic tradition have mentioned approvingly that while the Coptic hymns do not often rise to the level of exquisite verbal ornamentation found in the Syriac hymns, they are all the more instructive and beautiful in their earthiness. I agree.

So we might not have exactly what you have in the form you have it, but neither do we worry about that (and neither should you worry about not functioning as we do).
 
If that is so how do the faithful know what is to be taught to them? The reason why the Catholic Church has a magesterium is so that the faithful know what it is that the Church teaches and what we are to believe. Without it, we would be like so many of the Protestant denomonations that have conflicting doctrines of belief. Also is there in conformity with the Churches in union with The Catholic Church as a whole. Doctrines explain dogma’s. There are as I understand it many different ways of explaining the truth of what we as Catholic’s believe. without it how is one to know what to believe as one could believe whatever they wanted to without criticism from the Church.
We have Holy Tradition and the Holy Spirit to guide the Eastern Orthodox Church. If a priest or theologian falls into heresy, they are disciplined, usually by the local Bishop or the Holy Synod. We do need a bureaucracy to insure that we keep our Faith pure.

Fr. John
 
“Office”? “Enforced”? :confused: I don’t understand what you mean by these two words.
Are we getting this post-modern?

Office — Is there an office for the Priest in your Parish? Does your Parish belong to a jurisdiction for a particular Bishopric Office? Does the Bishopric Office belong to a Patriarchate? All Magisterium is, is a fancy Latin word for: Teaching Office. So when you say you don’t have one, well - that sounds very protestant. Grab a Bible and interpret away…

Enforce — Are there administrative methods where things are reported to different levels. Different people that deal with reports of misconduct, teachings thing contrary to the faith, and things that may threaten the Church or place her in an undesirable situation. Enforcement is not exclusive to armed personnel.

That’s just basic things. It’s the normal hierarchy of any system of government, which the Church on Earth is. Don’t we need to administer the finances, buildings, utilities, printing materials, chapels, etc.?

I don’t understand why those terms should seem so foreign.
 
Thank you for you reply. I now have learned something about how the Orthodox teaches its faithful. That being said Catholic’s generally are taught the Catechism if they go to a Catholic school. However, those who wish or think of becoming Catholic’s go to RCIA classes in order to learn about the Catholic faith. Those coming into the Church do not recieve Communion till Easter when they are formely come into the Church. However I will say this, not all Catholic’s practice their faith, some practice it in a lukewarm manor some not at all. Also it is to be understood that to practice faith as a Catholic one should be trying at least to live the Gosples, by that I mean to live as Christ taught. to walk with man and to walk with God. a Very tall order to say the least, but but not all do, which is so sad. There are those who go to Church (Mass ) but afterwards do not even try to live or do what is preached. Many do not even read the Bible. So I imagine that without the Magesterium it would be worse.
 
Are we getting this post-modern?

Office — Is there an office for the Priest in your Parish? Does your Parish belong to a jurisdiction for a particular Bishopric Office? Does the Bishopric Office belong to a Patriarchate? All Magisterium is, is a fancy Latin word for: Teaching Office. So when you say you don’t have one, well - that sounds very protestant. Grab a Bible and interpret away…

Enforce — Are there administrative methods where things are reported to different levels. Different people that deal with reports of misconduct, teachings thing contrary to the faith, and things that may threaten the Church or place her in an undesirable situation. Enforcement is not exclusive to armed personnel.

That’s just basic things. It’s the normal hierarchy of any system of government, which the Church on Earth is. Don’t we need to administer the finances, buildings, utilities, printing materials, chapels, etc.?

I don’t understand why those terms should seem so foreign.
You are misinterpreting me. Of course we have a diocesan Bishop, a Metropolitan and Local Synod of Bishops as well as a Patriarch and Holy Synod, or if necessary a pan-Orthodox council. However, we do not need a special office to supervise doctrinal uniformity. It is already there. It is in our liturgical texts, and in our teaching.
We have a parish council that administers the finances, buildings, utilities and other non spiritual affairs of the parish. They are elected by a parish meeting of the people which also approves the budget for the parish. We have an Archdiocesan convention representing the parishes which approves the budget for the Archdiocese and elects a Board of Trustees to deal with these matters between the meetings of the Convention of the Archdiocese.

Fr. John
 
Are we getting this post-modern?
Nope. Pre-modern. 😉
Office — Is there an office for the Priest in your Parish?
I don’t understand what you mean by the term “office” in this sentence.
Does your Parish belong to a jurisdiction for a particular Bishopric Office?
Our church is within the Southern United States Diocese under HG Bishop Youssef, if that’s what you mean.
Does the Bishopric Office belong to a Patriarchate?
We’re Coptic Orthodox… 🤷
All Magisterium is, is a fancy Latin word for: Teaching Office.
Okay. What I’m saying is that we don’t have a separate body or whatever that is considered the “teaching office”. The Holy Synod teaches, the Pope teaches, the Bishop teaches, the Priest teaches, etc. There’s no one office or level or whatever where we locate all teaching authority. Everybody teaches Orthodoxy and everybody is accountable to it as the standard.
So when you say you don’t have one, well - that sounds very protestant. Grab a Bible and interpret away…
Thank you, we are quite proud of the Alexandrian hermeneutic tradition developed at the Catechetical School of Alexandria (the first of its kind in the world). 😉 What this has to do with Protestantism, I have no idea.
Enforce — Are there administrative methods where things are reported to different levels. Different people that deal with reports of misconduct, teachings thing contrary to the faith, and things that may threaten the Church or place her in an undesirable situation. Enforcement is not exclusive to armed personnel.
Absolutely there are, same as any other church. Just recently HH has sent a committee of three bishops to investigate problems in the D.C. area churches, and other recent actions also dealt with problematic statements from Metropolitans, abbots, and others. You seemed to be asking about enforcing doctrinal positions as though we would/should need a “teaching authority” similar to the RC magisterium to keep everything from going off the rails, though, because that is how your church has developed to handle such problems. That’s not the case, and I just wanted to emphasize that and explain why that is.
I don’t understand why those terms should seem so foreign.
Because I can’t assume what you mean by using terms that we do not use.
 
I’m pretty sure that was accomplished a while ago. Like when the OP originally posted Mr. Bonocore’s awful, ignorant, ahistorical timeline in the other thread.
 
So Father,

How do you really feel about Eastern Catholicism?

I am kidding, Father.
I am really sorry that I had to be so blunt, but dialogue to be fruitful has to be honest. I get along well with the local Catholics. Just this evening, I attended the marriage of one of my members in a local Catholic Church. I wore my cassock and pectoral cross and sat in the sanctuary in the seats for the altar services. After the Christmas Fast is over, which for us begins on November 15, I will bless their marriage with the Orthodox wedding service. We do not celebrate weddings during fasts. A few weeks ago I presided over the marriage of one of the women in my parish to a Catholic man. After I finished, his Priest gave them a blessing. So, despite my disagreements with the Catholic Church, I cooperate with the local Catholic clergy. Catholics need to know how we feel about when Eastern Catholics claim to be Orthodox in Communion with Rome. We have a Western Rite, but they make it clear that they are Orthodox. The Eastern Catholics should do the same, and cease claiming to be something that they are not.

Fr. John
 
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Frjohnmorris:
Pope Honorius was not teaching formally or infallibly because the Popes had no such authority at that time. Besides the decree of Vatican I does not state that only statements by the Pope taught formally of infallibly were unblemished by false teaching, but that no Pope had ever taught false doctrine. Pope Honorius did teach false doctrine in his letter to Patriarch Sergius.

Fr. John
Randy Carson:
So, you either don’t know or don’t want to admit that Honorius never made an ex cathedrastatement.

Tell me, in your understanding of papal infallibility, are popes permitted to err as private theologians (ie, when they are offering their opinions on theological matters and NOT binding the whole Church to that opinion) and does that private error - even private heresy - have any bearing whatsoever on papal infalliblity?
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Frjohnmorris:
Of course Pope Honorius I did not make an “ex cathedra” statement, because that concept did not exist at that time.
And so I say, it was not infallible.;)🙂

Father, you have stubbornly trying to equate papal infallibility to Pope Honorius teaching even after being explained to you that papal infallibility is conditional.

Don’t you think that you should understand what papal infallibility is first of all? Like what it entails?

Whether or not past Popes prior to Vatican 1 knew about papal infallibility or not, you still cannot logically allege that all their teachings were deemed infallible. They are not today and they were not then.

I feel that you are obsessed in your objection to papal infallibility that you have confused much of your scholarly presentation and instead you seemed to have mixed your points, perhaps as you did when I dialogued with you regarding abortive birth control and pro-life issue. You seem to be saying most of the time when the weakness of your church being pointed to you, “Your church (Catholic) is doing the same thing” or to that effect.

The spirit of Vatican 1 regarding papal infallibility is that it is a gift of being protected from error when spoken Ex-Cathedra on matter of faith and moral. When the Church formulated this in Vatican 1, it did not include as infallible statements – personal letters, teaching on specific subjects, encyclicals or thought of the past Popes which it does not now too.

To include Honorius’ letter (which you cannot show) as supposed to be infallible teaching in order that you could attack papal infallibility is confusing indeed to my mind. It is like you have mixed up your points.

Vatican 1 basically says when the papal infallibility is free from error, she is saying all dogmas that are not in error, not heretical teaching or personal thought of the Popes. Papal infallibility is never meant the Poes’ encyclicals, letters or personal thought and teaching on current subjects but one that affirmed the belief of the apostles.
The proper question is whether Honorius proclaimed a doctrine to be “held by the whole Church.” The answer to this question is clearly “No.” Honorius urged a rule of silence, not a rule of faith. His letters, which anathematized nothing, were intended for a few Eastern bishops and were unknown in the West until after his death. They were hardly the sort of documents with which a pope communicates his intent to bind the whole Church to a solemn dogmatic definition. Unfortunately, the unintended consequence of Honorius policy was to leave the monothelite patriarchs in the East in place.
Have a good day.👍🙂
 
On the whole, Papal infallibility seems to be a fairly useless charism. Catholics really should have no problem with dropping it for the sake of unity, don’t you think?"
 
Do you think that the infallibility of the Church is a useless charism?
 
How many infallible statements have been made by Popes? What is it, something like two?
Don’t you think it is highly remiss of the popes for failing to use this charism to settle the many issues which have caused schisms and outright divisions throughout church history?
How would you defend their gross negligence?
 
On the whole, Papal infallibility seems to be a fairly useless charism. Catholics really should have no problem with dropping it for the sake of unity, don’t you think?"
Nothing from God is useless. Christians of all stripes and denominations know this. If not, all you have to do is to reflect on Mt 24 on the parable of the talents.

Having said that, this particular topic, papal infallibility, is blown out of proportion here and its protagonists refuse to listen to what it actually is and instead making their own misperceived understanding of it to attack something which is not. It is an obsession to non-Catholics, while to Catholics it just does not figure. 99 out of 100 Catholics world-wide may just not bother with infallibility or know that it exists.

Infallibility is about truth but the Church and her visible leader must be credible when they proclaim the truth. All those basic teaching of the faith, the Trinity, the divinity of Christ are all infallible belief. We speak infallibly when we preach these. A pope cannot speak infallibly when he speaks the untruth even if he is saying he speaks ex-cathedra. For example, he cannot say there are three gods and declare it is ex-cathedra statement. Papal infallibility is just common sense; that is why most Catholics do not really make a fuss about this.

As for reconciliation – obviously it will only be achieved when both parties agree. We here are only wasting our time on things that we do not know of.

Papal infallibility is a special gift given to a leader of the church and most of us, clergies and lays, do have this gift in one degree or other. It is no big deal actually. When we preach God’s truth we speak infallibly. The leader of the church must be given this gift to defend the truth. In fact any leaders of any churches do have infallibility of some kind when they speak the truth of their faith only that they may not use the same term.

Without the gift of infallibility, how can then we speak the truth? We can only say, “I think it is like this … “

Most of the disagreement is actually semantic. We merely argue about terms.
 
I am really sorry that I had to be so blunt, but dialogue to be fruitful has to be honest. I get along well with the local Catholics. Just this evening, I attended the marriage of one of my members in a local Catholic Church. I wore my cassock and pectoral cross and sat in the sanctuary in the seats for the altar services. After the Christmas Fast is over, which for us begins on November 15, I will bless their marriage with the Orthodox wedding service. We do not celebrate weddings during fasts. A few weeks ago I presided over the marriage of one of the women in my parish to a Catholic man. After I finished, his Priest gave them a blessing. So, despite my disagreements with the Catholic Church, I cooperate with the local Catholic clergy. **Catholics need to know how we feel about when Eastern Catholics claim to be Orthodox in Communion with Rome. We have a Western Rite, but they make it clear that they are Orthodox. The Eastern Catholics should do the same, and cease claiming to be something that they are not. **

Fr. John
You make a good point; but at the same time, we should be careful not to lump-together everyone who calls themselves “Orthodox in communion with Rome”. It seems to me that this phrase is sometimes accompanied by a triumphalist (or even extremely triumphalist) attitude, and sometimes not.
 
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frjohnmorris:
Catholics need to know how we feel about when Eastern Catholics claim to be Orthodox in Communion with Rome. We have a Western Rite, but they make it clear that they are Orthodox. The Eastern Catholics should do the same, and cease claiming to be something that they are not.
While it can be understandable how the Orthodox feel about this, you are asking for the impracticable. As much as you do not like what others who are out of your jurisdiction do, there is nothing you can do about it. There is simply no way how it could work when you try to dictate to others on what they should do. You just have to adapt accordingly. We did. Why do you think we are Roman Catholic? We were never Roman in the beginning - we use it to differentiate from others who used the term Catholic as well.

Frankly it is hard for me to understand such request which make no sense at all in term of any weight on the party that you are requesting to. Protestant churches who use the term catholic think they are right in using it and there is absolutely nothing we can do nothing about it.
 
While it can be understandable how the Orthodox feel about this, you are asking for the impracticable. As much as you do not like what others who are out of your jurisdiction do, there is nothing you can do about it. There is simply no way how it could work when you try to dictate to others on what they should do. You just have to adapt accordingly. We did. Why do you think we are Roman Catholic? We were never Roman in the beginning - we use it to differentiate from others who used the term Catholic as well.

Frankly it is hard for me to understand such request which make no sense at all in term of any weight on the party that you are requesting to. Protestant churches who use the term catholic think they are right in using it and there is absolutely nothing we can do nothing about it.
Good points, although I think a qualifier should be added concerning how far this may be taken. For example, you would agree that it would be unacceptable for a protestant group to call themselves “Roman Catholic”, right?
 
Good points, although I think a qualifier should be added concerning how far this may be taken. For example, you would agree that it would be unacceptable for a protestant group to call themselves “Roman Catholic”, right?
Yeah, I did not think of that but if they do, we need to change our name again, maybe Pope Roman Catholic? lol.
 
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