Catholic-Orthodox Timeline: Bonocore Responds

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We are a competing historical narrative. That is what it boils down to. Our very existence debunks the idea that a strong centralized figure is necessary to keep the Faith. This strikes at the theology of the Papacy, which is the very heart of Latin Ecclesiology and practice. Our existence is an assault on that authority, even though it is implicit. Our faithfulness (or as some Latins have insinuated, our sinful Pride) to the Faith that we have received is what is at issue here.
Gee, I’m not sure that anyone has been making the exact argument you’re suggesting. Has anything from Bonocore’s timeline or the subsequent rabbit trails we’ve been down specifically argued that the Papacy exists primarily to ensure that we “keep the Faith”. Your existence doesn’t threaten my appreciation for or understanding of the natural development of the papacy in the least.
No doubt the possibility of conversion of lurkers in these discussions to Orthodoxy is on the mind of many Latins here (and perhaps the moderators) which is why our Position must be debunked at all costs…or disipated in a hand waving “We all believe the same thing anyway.”
No doubt. If you put it in those terms, then yes, I would seek to dismantle your arguments with the same vigor I would seek to disprove any other non-Catholic group. You’re no different.
I think it was Father John who said that our differences should be discussed openly and honestly…I agree. This being a Latin forum, I can understand the hostility. The ignorance about Orthodoxy should be countered, and the ignorance about the Latin Church should be as well.
The narrative that we are disunified, ethnic cranks who irrationally dislike anything Latin is wrong. Most of us want to disabuse people of those misconceptions, which is why many Orthodox participate on forums such as this.
However, the above mentioned narrative is very useful in Latin Apologetics and Polemics, which is why that canard is always drug out in every discussion like this. The apologetics materials of this very website even have a whiff of that narrative, which is also unfortunate.
Unfortunately, the anti-Latin sentiment is not a myth. There is another thread where this is being discussed and personal experiences are being shared. To be fair, there may be parts of the country or world where the reverse is also true, but down South where I have lived all my life in several different states, there is no anti-Orthodox prejudice because no one thinks of the Orthodox at all. I’m not trying to be rude…there just aren’t enough of you here for anyone to even notice. Introducing yourself at a party as an Orthodox would be met with the same silence that might be received if you mentioned that you are Libertarian - probably more. 😛
I hope that everyone has gotten something positive out of these dialogues, despite the vitriol that can be displayed at times.
I have enjoyed our discussion, and I truly appreciate the effort you have made to teach me more about the Eastern Church. Thanks! 👍
 
There is a deep disunity within the Latin Church…serious enough that without the Papal Tent, Schism would undoubtedly occur.
The deep disunity is an exaggeration; a tendency always be when it comes to numbers. Similarly about the pedophile priests, one would think when hearing comments on it, it is as if all priests are pedophiles and the phenomenon happens in the Catholic Church only.

We have to be more perspective in commenting about this to avoid generalization and exaggeration. Probably use such tools like proportion to the total number or does it happens too in other churches?

Find out what is the percentage of such occurrences, where they happens – are they regional or worldwide? What about the Church’s growth? Does it grow or on the decline and where? We would be more credible when we have fact to back our assertion. If we do not, it is better not to make sweeping statement.

Sometimes disunity and problem would mend in time and sometimes don’t. Times only will tell and the direction of the Church as well. So far it is not too bad. We are still here after 2000 years - could be better but not too bad either. The era of errant Popes perhaps will be gone forever. The number of Catholics has increased but we lose some as well. Relatively, she is somewhere in between but probably much better than many of the smaller churches except perhaps for the Evangelicals.
 
How do you reconcile this idea with the formation of the Old Catholic Church in the wake of Vatican I, which was formed in resistance to the supposed objectionable nature of the decisions of that council regarding Papal power and prerogatives?

I mean…we don’t really need to imagine what would happen, in that case…that’s what did happen, so it’s a little odd to read about how just such a thing cannot happen because of “checks and balances” that are supposed to guard against the declaration of objectionable things. Can the declaration of Papal Infallibility itself not be taken as evidence that this schema cannot work, and if not, why not?
There will always be those who do not accept the Truth. People rejected Jesus when He walked upon the earth. So, if He can’t convince everyone of His positions, why expect that His Church will fare any better?
 
There is a deep disunity within the Latin Church…serious enough that without the Papal Tent, Schism would undoubtedly occur.
And perhaps it will. I, for one, think the Catholic Church might be STRONGER once the chaff among us have left. And this is true of EVERY Church and organization. Those who are not truly committed weaken the group as a whole.

But this is not an indictment of the Church, is it? People will believe and do what they wish.

2 Peter 3:3
3 Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires.

2 Timothy 4:3
For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own likings,
 
Hi Randy: Happy Thanksgiving to you and yours. I would like to add a comment about your thought that ‘people will believe and do what they wish’. I have to agree with that. I would add that when it comes to truth that there are truths that people believe to be false and things that are false people believe to be true. we all have a choice to choose what to believe or not as you well know. Sometimes the truth will stare someone in the face and still they refuse to believe. All one can do in the end is to present the truth as we understand it and hope that those hearing it will come to believe. In the mean time if they don’t then we pray for them that one day that they will.
 
“A pope will not be heretic when he is speaking ex-cathedra because he is protected by the charism of infallibility in matter of faith and moral. He is not impeccable personally in his personal exhortations, encyclicals, decrees and teachings which are not binding on the Church.”

REPLY: So how does one know which statements are infallible?
Typically, when the infallibility question comes up it is about a papal statement that is already agreed to be correct, made by a pope who is already agreed to be not-a-heretic. So it isn’t as big of an issue as you might think.
 
Thank you for your reply.

You state that he gets (name removed by moderator)ut and suggestions from all over the place. That is all well and good, but that is something he “allows”…he doesn’t have to do that, and if he decided not to anymore, who could say he was wrong? You may counter that he “would never do that” but that is not the point. No Bishop has that authority or power in the first place, and it shouldn’t even be an option, or on the books at all. THAT is the point we are making.

How is there a check and balance there? The various movements may balance each other by the influence that they are allowed to exert at the Vatican, but they have no say in the final decisions…that is reserved to the Pope alone. The Pope listens to who he wants to, and disregards who he wants to. He still has supreme authority, even if he exercises it in a spirit of generosity and has a very large council of advisors and committees.

In the strictest of senses, according to the definition of the word, the Pope is a dictator because all final authority rests in him. He has final say, final veto, final authority…he is not bound by Canon Law, or any Synod. I think Father’s use of that word was unfortunate, but it is not technically inaccurate. It is akin to saying that Sola Scriptura is a heresy…while that is technically true, it is a very loaded word with many negative connotations so it is not used much anymore. I think one could accuse Father John of being tactless or “unecumenical”, but he is not wrong.

God be with you as well, and us all.
These are the definitions for “dictator”

dic·ta·tor (dkttr, dk-t-)
n.
1.
a. An absolute ruler.
b. A tyrant; a despot.
2. An ancient Roman magistrate appointed temporarily to deal with an immediate crisis or emergency.
3. One who dictates: These initials are those of the dictator of the letter.

Which of these three refer to the pope technically speaking?

Obviously, he is not a dictator (constitutional monarch would be more apt), i.e., he is bound by the constitutional law of the Church, he cannot dismantle the episcopate, nor does he have the power to change/add/take away from the deposit of faith, , , etc., There are many things which the pope cannot do.
 
For a better understanding of the pope’s role one should read Adrian Fortesque’s "The Early Papacy . . . ", here is an excerpt from that book:

"Anglicans often tell us that all bishops are equal, as if this principle were an objection to the papacy. So they are, as far as the order of the episcopate is concerned. There is only one order of bishops; no one can be, in any sense, more a bishop than another. If a man is ordained Bishop of Rome, he receives exactly the same sacrament as ne who is ordained bishop of the smallest suffragan see in the most remote land. The bishop of Rome, as far as order goes, is no more a bishop than the bishop of Krishnagar. But all bishops are NOT equal, in the sense that none has authority over any other. In this sense the statement is false and can be proved to be false from the very beginning of the Church history. It can be proved false by other examples than that of Rome. From the beginning there have been cases of bishops who had EXTRADIOCESAN authority, that is, jurisdiction, real jurisdiction, over their fellow bishops. To this day the Anglican must be familiar with the idea of an archbishop, who has authority outside his own diocese over other bishops, though these do not thereby cease to be real ordinaries and do not become merely his auxiliaries. Over archbishops, there were still, in some cases, primates, sometimes over primates such great people as exarchs. . . . In the first six centuries it was a very solid authority. Over archbishops, primates, and exarchs stand those greatest bishops of all: the five patriarchs. Their authority was always, is still, very great indeed. It is seen only in the East, because there is but one patriarch in the West, who is the Pope himself. But the principle is there; it should help anyone who has difficulties to understand at least the possibility of the Pope’s jurisdiction over than bishops. The point that seems to make all the difference in appreciating the Pope’s position is that this is not an isolated fact. The papacy is the topmost point of a regularly graduated hierarchy of bishops, in which each has authority over those under him. . . .

Or is there something specially impossible in the idea of a man having authority over other bishops, successors of the apostles as he is himself? Then how about the jurisdiction of an archbishop, a primate or a patriarch? But Christ is the head of the Church (cf. Col 1:18). Of course he is. He is the head of each diocese, too, the head of each province and patriarchate. If he can have a visible vicar to represent his authority over the diocese and patriarchate, what difficulty is there against the idea of a still higher vicar of Christ, representing his authority over all? We know that Christ governs, teaches and sanctifies his Church through men, his vicars. Christ baptizes; Christ consecrates; Christ forgives sins; he rules the diocese. Christ rules the whole body, too, at headquarters; here, too, he does so through his minister. . . . The pope is not, in the absolute sense, head of the Church; the head of the Church is Jesus Christ, our Lord, as our English catechism says. The Pope is the vicar of that head and is therefore the visible head of the Church on earth, having authority delegated from Christ over the Church on earth only, just as every diocesan bishop has authority delegated from Christ over his diocese only."
 
Mark Bonocore’s timeline argues for certain events in the history of the relationship between the Catholic and Orthodox churches. Because of disputes about certain aspects of that history, questions arise concerning the absolute authority claimed by the Pope. Do these claims have precedent in the history of God’s people?

Absolute Authority Established by God: Joseph, Eliakim, and Peter

Joseph - Genesis 41:40-44

40 You shall be in charge of my palace, and all my people are to submit to your orders. Only with respect to the throne will I be greater than you.” 41 So Pharaoh said to Joseph, “I hereby put you in charge of the whole land of Egypt.” 42 Then Pharaoh took his signet ring from his finger and put it on Joseph’s finger. He dressed him in robes of fine linen and put a gold chain around his neck. 43 He had him ride in a chariot as his second-in-command, and people shouted before him, “Make way!” Thus he put him in charge of the whole land of Egypt. 44 Then Pharaoh said to Joseph, “I am Pharaoh, but without your word no one will lift hand or foot in all Egypt.”
  • Steward over Pharaoh’s kingdom
  • Second in command
  • Dressed in robes with gold chain around neck as symbols of authority
  • Universal jurisdiction throughout the land of Egypt
  • No one lifts hand or foot without Joseph’s word
Eliakim - Isaiah 22:20-22
20 “In that day I will summon my servant, Eliakim son of Hilkiah. 21 I will clothe him with your robe and fasten your sash around him and hand your authority over to him. He will be a father to those who live in Jerusalem and to the people of Judah. 22 I will place on his shoulder the key to the house of David; what he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open.
  • Steward over Hezekiah’s kingdom
  • Second in command
  • Dressed in robe and sash with key on shoulder as symbols of authority
  • Universal jurisdiction throughout Jerusalem and Judah
  • No one opens or shuts without Eliakim
Peter - Matthew 16:18-20
18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”
  • Steward over Jesus’ kingdom
  • Second in command (cf. John 21:15-19 vicarious shepherd of the one flock)
  • Given keys as symbol of authority
  • Universal jurisdiction over all of Jesus’ kingdom
  • Authority to bind and loose
 
Thank you for your reply.

You state that he gets (name removed by moderator)ut and suggestions from all over the place. That is all well and good, but that is something he “allows”…he doesn’t have to do that, and if he decided not to anymore, who could say he was wrong? You may counter that he “would never do that” but that is not the point. No Bishop has that authority or power in the first place, and it shouldn’t even be an option, or on the books at all. THAT is the point we are making.

How is there a check and balance there? The various movements may balance each other by the influence that they are allowed to exert at the Vatican, but they have no say in the final decisions…that is reserved to the Pope alone. The Pope listens to who he wants to, and disregards who he wants to. He still has supreme authority, even if he exercises it in a spirit of generosity and has a very large council of advisors and committees.

In the strictest of senses, according to the definition of the word, the Pope is a dictator because all final authority rests in him. He has final say, final veto, final authority…he is not bound by Canon Law, or any Synod. I think Father’s use of that word was unfortunate, but it is not technically inaccurate. It is akin to saying that Sola Scriptura is a heresy…while that is technically true, it is a very loaded word with many negative connotations so it is not used much anymore. I think one could accuse Father John of being tactless or “unecumenical”, but he is not wrong.

God be with you as well, and us all.
There are so many things within your replies which I object to (most notably your exaggerations of papal powers and the manner in which imply that our bishops are nothing more than puppets). Moreover, having the final say is not dictatorial if in fact it is and has always been ancient custom for other parts of the Church to seek out the bishops of Rome as a last court of appeal. It is even enshrined in canon law (yours in Trullo and mine in Sardica). It is only logical that there should be a way to end discord between brother bishops by establishing a chief bishop who could put an end to any and all disputes, i.e., the unjust removal of orthodox bishops from their sees. . .etc. There are many examples of this throughout history, in fact, Socrates and Sozimus (both historians) affirm this:
“When they had explained their cause to Julius, Bishop of the city of Rome, he sent them back to the East strengthened by free letters, and restored to each his see, as is the right of the Roman Church.”
“Since the care of all was his (Pope St. Julius) affair, because of the rank of his see, he gave back to each his own Church. Julius writes to the Eastern bishops: ‘do you not know that this is the custom, that first you must write to us, and that here what is just shall be decreed,’ again,’ It is not right to make laws for the Churches apart from the knowledge of the Bishop of Rome.”
In Adrian Fortesque’s book “The Early Papacy”, he states that “to receive an appeal and revise a trial is the plainest possible case of (universal) jurisdiction.” The popes of the pre-Schism Church were no less aware of their role as supreme guardian of the faith when, for example, Innocent I wrote in his praise of the Council of Carthage of 417 that it has “kept and confirmed the example of ancient discipline”:
“You have referred to our judgment, knowing what is due to the Apostolic See, from which the episcopate itself and all authority of this name has come. . . You know that nothing even in the most distant provinces is to be settled until it comes to the knowledge of this see; so that the decision be established by the whole authority of this see.”
. . . or when Pope Zosimusin 418 writing to the bishops in Africa states: “our authority is so great that no one can contradict our decision.”

How is this different from the way the Catholic Church of today views the papacy? There are countless examples that we can see even in the early Church that attest that the papacy had more than what the Orthodox claim was a “first among equals” status. Your understanding of primacy defies Scripture and Tradition as we know it, yet you claim that we are in the wrong. I beg to differ.
 
“You have referred to our judgment, knowing what is due to the Apostolic See, from which the episcopate itself and all authority of this name has come. . . You know that nothing even in the most distant provinces is to be settled until it comes to the knowledge of this see; so that the decision be established by the whole authority of this see.”

. . . or when Pope Zosimusin 418 writing to the bishops in Africa states: “our authority is so great that no one can contradict our decision.”
Are these two quotes in Fortescue’s book? I own it, and I’m only a couple of chapters in so far.

Josie, you know that Newman wrote, “To be deep in history is to cease to be a Protestant”, but the more I learn about the history of the Great Schism and dig into the objections raised against Catholicism, the more I believe that the same can be said of Orthodoxy. One by one the dominoes fall.
 
Are these two quotes in Fortescue’s book? I own it, and I’m only a couple of chapters in so far.

Josie, you know that Newman wrote, “To be deep in history is to cease to be a Protestant”, but the more I learn about the history of the Great Schism and dig into the objections raised against Catholicism, the more I believe that the same can be said of Orthodoxy. One by one the dominoes fall.
Yes they are. It’s really an amazing book for any and all who want an easy but concise read about the papacy. By the way, it’s in the chapter entitled “The pope’s Jurisdiction”.

P.S. Another great read is from our Emeritus Pope Benedict XVI entitled “Communion”. It really will put into perspective church ecclesiology, but you’ll have to read it slowly to take it all in.
 
Which brings up a bigger question. Is the personage of the Pope the only thing holding it all together? Despite the protestations of Apologists, The Latin Church changed radically after Vatican II. The rupture with the Past is apparent and obvious. The SSPX was the Catholic Mainstream in 1940. Now they are viewed as fringe kooks. You have Catholic clergy and religious holding all sorts of heterodox beliefs, and some professing them publicly.

We have our fringe as well, but our disagreements are more out in the open. It’s a public spectacle (and at times quite messy), but there are no illusions and it is honest. There is a deep disunity within the Latin Church…serious enough that without the Papal Tent, Schism would undoubtedly occur.
Ours were/are out in the open as well (the spread of liberal theology of which you refer to was not exactly a private affair), moreover, with a billion plus members and more clout in the West at least than the Orthodox have (I would even argue in the world) will ensure that any and all problems within the Church will be highly scrutinized/publicized. Despite the cultural and social vagaries which affect the members of our Church (causing some to defy or deny), She still stands as a moral voice and compass for the whole world (not just Catholics). And you are right about the Pope he does indeed bind us together, i.e., to be in communion with the pope is to be in communion with Christ’s Church.
 
Are these two quotes in Fortescue’s book? I own it, and I’m only a couple of chapters in so far.

Josie, you know that Newman wrote, “To be deep in history is to cease to be a Protestant”, but the more I learn about the history of the Great Schism and dig into the objections raised against Catholicism, the more I believe that the same can be said of Orthodoxy. One by one the dominoes fall.
That is quite a bit of myopic triumphalism. Of course the dominoes fall, from your perspective. That is because you haven’t expressed any interest in reading things written from the opposite perspective. For example, you employed a passage from the collection of essays the Primacy of Peter. But have you read the collection of essays? Have you actually tried to understand Orthodox ecclesiology, or what the Orthodox claim? I suspect, given your disdainful attitude towards all things Orthodox, that the answer to both is no. I suspect that you are more interested in popular style apologetics (employing proof-texting and a more shallow kind textual analysis) rather than a more academic style of argumentation which necessitates a certain willingness to understand and engage the other according to his own premises (Heidegger, for example certainly did not become so well regarded by prooftexting Nietzsche to refute Hegel. ;)). I am not saying that is necessarily bad (I don’t really like popular apologetics, but I guess it has its place), but it perhaps explains why we always seem to talk past each other
 
And you are right about the Pope he does indeed bind us together, i.e., to be in communion with the pope is to be in communion with Christ’s Church.
The question is “Is the personage of the Pope the only thing holding it all together?”, not “Does being in communion with the Roman Catholic Pope bind Catholics together?”

Put another way, for the first ‘Papal’ Church of the world, the Church of Alexandria, to return to its “pre-Pope” days, we would need to consider our ways as they were before the days of Pope Heraclas, the thirteenth successor to St. Mark (232-246). It would be difficult – mostly because documentary evidence of the life of the Church in its earliest days is fragmentary – but it is at least possible, and really would not change our lives or our ecclesiology all that much (‘Pope’ is not conceived of in the Alexandrian Church as the Romans later conceived of it, so while things would certainly change, the essential character of the Church and its ecclesiology would not). Is such a thing possible with the Roman Catholic Church? If it is not, then what does that say about the role of the Roman Catholic Pope, according to Roman ecclesiology? Can you imagine a church without a Pope, or at least with a Pope without Universal Jurisdiction, Papal Infallibility, and the other things that are uniquely claimed by the Roman bishop?
 
The question is “Is the personage of the Pope the only thing holding it all together?”, not “Does being in communion with the Roman Catholic Pope bind Catholics together?”

Put another way, for the first ‘Papal’ Church of the world, the Church of Alexandria, to return to its “pre-Pope” days, we would need to consider our ways as they were before the days of Pope Heraclas, the thirteenth successor to St. Mark (232-246). It would be difficult – mostly because documentary evidence of the life of the Church in its earliest days is fragmentary – but it is at least possible, and really would not change our lives or our ecclesiology all that much (‘Pope’ is not conceived of in the Alexandrian Church as the Romans later conceived of it, so while things would certainly change, the essential character of the Church and its ecclesiology would not). Is such a thing possible with the Roman Catholic Church? If it is not, then what does that say about the role of the Roman Catholic Pope, according to Roman ecclesiology? Can you imagine a church without a Pope, or at least with a Pope without Universal Jurisdiction, Papal Infallibility, and the other things that are uniquely claimed by the Roman bishop?
Exactly.

I have made this point before, that Modern Latin Ecclesiology has never really been put to the test. Rome has not experienced the persecution or trials that Alexandria, Jeruselem, Antioch or Constantinople have.

If the Vatican were destroyed tomorrow, and the Pope deposed or killed. What would happen to the Church? “Oh they would elect a new Pope” is the flippant answer, but it doesn’t really address the implications of the question.

We don’t need the Ecumenical Patriarch to be Orthodox. If the Ecumenical Throne ceased to be, that wouldn’t stop the machine. It would gum up the works for a time, but it doesn’t change who we are. Can the same be said for the Latins?
 
I have made this point before, that Modern Latin Ecclesiology has never really been put to the test. Rome has not experienced the persecution or trials that Alexandria, Jeruselem, Antioch or Constantinople have.
The Popes had been arrested, jailed and even exiled. Rome at one time did not have a resident Pope. In fact all of us as Christians regardless of denominations did experience some forms of persecution.
If the Vatican were destroyed tomorrow, and the Pope deposed or killed. What would happen to the Church? “Oh they would elect a new Pope” is the flippant answer, but it doesn’t really address the implications of the question.
I suppose the procedure is the same on electing a new Pope. It is all in place. If the Pope is not around at all, the Church still can survive because there are Bishops and priests and there are the faithful. Sacraments can still be administered and doctrines do not change. Until a new Pope is elected and installed and the Church once again has her visible head. The Gate of Hell will not prevail against her. The Pope is part and parcel of the Church – the Shepherd and the Servant of servants of God.

What we are talking here is about spiritual realm, not your ordinary administration. You have to believe the spiritual aspect of it, like the promise of Jesus in the Gospel. Without the conviction of belief, everything else comes to a naught.
We don’t need the Ecumenical Patriarch to be Orthodox. If the Ecumenical Throne ceased to be, that wouldn’t stop the machine. It would gum up the works for a time, but it doesn’t change who we are. Can the same be said for the Latins?
If you say so. I understand from the other thread that the Orthodox populace does not have to believe in the decision of the Patriarch or Council. So in that setting, perhaps you need your Bishops/clergies merely to administer the Sacraments.
 
Reuben:

“The Popes had been arrested, jailed and even exiled. Rome at one time did not have a resident Pope. In fact all of us as Christians regardless of denominations did experience some forms of persecution.”

REPLY: Yes, but the Pope in Rome didn’t have to witness the Vatican desecrated, its altars defiled and it be turned into a Mosque. What I meant, was that Rome itself has remained relatively unscathed compared to Constantinople, Antioch, Alexandria and Jeruselem. I say this not to make a low blow, but to illustrate my point.

"I suppose the procedure is the same on electing a new Pope. It is all in place. If the Pope is not around at all, the Church still can survive because there are Bishops and priests and there are the faithful. Sacraments can still be administered and doctrines do not change. Until a new Pope is elected and installed and the Church once again has her visible head. The Gate of Hell will not prevail against her. The Pope is part and parcel of the Church – the Shepherd and the Servant of servants of God.

What we are talking here is about spiritual realm, not your ordinary administration. You have to believe the spiritual aspect of it, like the promise of Jesus in the Gospel. Without the conviction of belief, everything else comes to a naught."

REPLY: Seeing the Pope downcast and the Church reduced to a remnant wouldn’t mean the Gates of Hell prevailed…we certainly don’t think that because we were conquered by the Muslims.

“If you say so. I understand from the other thread that the Orthodox populace does not have to believe in the decision of the Patriarch or Council. So in that setting, perhaps you need your Bishops/clergies merely to administer the Sacraments.”

REPLY: That would not be accurate. The Liturgy and Sacred Traditions are our Catechism and the decisions of a Council are not mere suggestions. It wasn’t solely the Laity who rejected Florence, if that is what you are alluding to. There is a reason St. Mark of Ephesus is highly revered in the Church.
 
Yes, but the Pope in Rome didn’t have to witness the Vatican desecrated, its altars defiled and it be turned into a Mosque. What I meant, was that Rome itself has remained relatively unscathed compared to Constantinople, Antioch, Alexandria and Jeruselem. I say this not to make a low blow, but to illustrate my point.
I am not sure what you want to arrive at. I agree that Constantinople suffered much destruction at the hands of the Muslims. No, Rome did not undergo the same intensity of destruction though the Vatican was attacked and desecrated by the conquering armies. One of them as recent as Napoleon.

I don’t feel you are making a low blow at all. If you meant Constantinople suffered more than Rome, I agreed though I don’t know what the implication of comparing it with Rome is.
Seeing the Pope downcast and the Church reduced to a remnant wouldn’t mean the Gates of Hell prevailed…we certainly don’t think that because we were conquered by the Muslims.
That is exactly what I meant that the Gate of Hell will not prevail against the Lord’s Church. We believe the Orthodox is the Lord’s Church though we are in schism.
That would not be accurate. The Liturgy and Sacred Traditions are our Catechism and the decisions of a Council are not mere suggestions. It wasn’t solely the Laity who rejected Florence, if that is what you are alluding to. There is a reason St. Mark of Ephesus is highly revered in the Church.
As I said, I am merely following the Orthodox posters who spoke on this issue where in theory the populace can reject what the Ecumenical Patriarch, Bishops and Councils. If that is true then their only assured function is to minister the Sacraments as that can only be done by ordained clergies.

In Catholicism, the laities have no authority to reject the decision of the Pope, Bishops and Councils. Yes, we can disagree but eventually we have to assent to their teachings especially if they constitute extraordinary Magisterium.

The Catholic Pope is important for the Church which cannot be separated from her overall structure. His presence is required as he is “to feed the Lord’s sheep”. Though the Pope and his clergies are not impeccable, blessing comes when the faithful submit to them as their positions come from God – hence being fed.
 
Reuben:

"I am not sure what you want to arrive at. I agree that Constantinople suffered much destruction at the hands of the Muslims. No, Rome did not undergo the same intensity of destruction though the Vatican was attacked and desecrated by the conquering armies. One of them as recent as Napoleon.

I don’t feel you are making a low blow at all. If you meant Constantinople suffered more than Rome, I agreed though I don’t know what the implication of comparing it with Rome is."

REPLY: My reason for bringing it up, is that the Patriarch of Constantinople enjoyed a position of great privilege. As a prominent See in the Roman Empire by virtue of its proximity to the Emperor, it wielded a powerful influence within Christendom. That doesn’t mean it had the authority the Roman Pope claims, but it had much in the way of prestige. That power was broken, and it no longer had the favor of the secular rulers. In fact, it was thoroughly subjugated and made into a political office with spiritual overtones, completely subservient to a foreign and heathen ruler. That doesn’t mean there weren’t Holy Men who occupied the Patriarchate and did the best they could with what they had, but it was a different ballgame. Our Church had to adjust to this new reality. The Latin Church has never been put to this kind of test, and I have my doubts that the Latin Church could maintain cohesion were a similiar situation occur. The Latin Church wouldn’t disappear, but I contend that it’s modern Ecclesiology would not equip it to deal with such a circumstance, and that Schism would be inevitable.

“That is exactly what I meant that the Gate of Hell will not prevail against the Lord’s Church. We believe the Orthodox is the Lord’s Church though we are in schism.”

REPLY:We trust in Our Lord’s promises.

“As I said, I am merely following the Orthodox posters who spoke on this issue where in theory the populace can reject what the Ecumenical Patriarch, Bishops and Councils. If that is true then their only assured function is to minister the Sacraments as that can only be done by ordained clergies.”

REPLY: You misunderstand the role of the Laity in Orthodoxy. We are not a democracy, but we are not an absolute Monarchy either. God is our Monarch, and our Bishops are our Shepherds…and we are also people of God. We as the laity are united with our Bishops, Priests and Monks in Communion…there is a Synergy. We all have our role to play in Salvation. EVERYTHING must be done in accord with the Sacred Traditions of the Church, Our Liturgy and the Fathers. Everything stands or falls by that.

“In Catholicism, the laities have no authority to reject the decision of the Pope, Bishops and Councils. Yes, we can disagree but eventually we have to assent to their teachings especially if they constitute extraordinary Magisterium.”

REPLY: No Pope or Bishop is above Sacred Tradition or the Faith that was handed down to us. Again, Synergy…The Laity has its role, and the Bishops have theirs. Just like once upon a time, the Emperor had his role.

“The Catholic Pope is important for the Church which cannot be separated from her overall structure. His presence is required as he is “to feed the Lord’s sheep”. Though the Pope and his clergies are not impeccable, blessing comes when the faithful submit to them as their positions come from God – hence being fed.”

REPLY: I understand that the Latins believe this. Which brings me back to my original concern: Is the whole thing built on the Papacy? What of the Sacred Traditions of the West, of which the Papacy was just one aspect?
 
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