Catholic/Orthodox unity

[Ad_Gentes]

Catholic-Orthodox unity is a topic that really interest me. In fact, I pray for it all the time. The problem as I see it, however, is more complex than simply compromising in some issues. Aside from the theological differences, which I believe can be worked out through study, understanding, and tolerance, there are dogmatic issues (truths of faith, if you will), that cannot be brushed off so easily. The bottom line is that while we talk about unity all the time, it is not true unity that we seek.

The reason I say this (and I know many will disagree) is that for Catholics true unity really means for others (e.g. Orthodox Christians) to become Catholic. In other words, any type of Catholic-Orthodox unity would have to include the Oryhodox recognition of papal infallibility and supreme jurisdiction of Rome. The same goes for Orthodox. The Orthodox Church would recognize a primacy of honor (primus inter pares–first among equals) for the Bishop of Rome, the Pope, but only if the Catholic Church returns to what they consider true Orthodoxy in opposition to the current Roman “heterodoxy”. The result is, sadly, that unity becomes humanly impossible since no compromise can be reached.

Fortunately, for God all things are possible. So what can we do? First, continue our discussions in charity. Second, not to attempt to convert each other, but instead to understand and respect each other’s differences. Third, and most importantly, to pray and pray a lot. That we may become one just like the Father and the Son are one. God bless…

 

[Marie5890]

Ive thought about this a great deal and for me it comes down to as what is meant by “unity”?

How would it look? I do see some unresolvable stumbling blocks, but can some things be “unresolved” and unity still exist is my wonder.

 

[Nine_Two]

For the record, I am well aware of our ‘differences’…which is why I used the Pacific! Ever been to a Hawaiian Mass?..an Epsicopalian (In Communion with Rome) Pacific Island gathering?..and several other ‘Protestant’ services who refer to the Pope as the Holy Father, but retain their own tradition and version of worship?

There’s nothing ‘sinister’ in looking toward unity!

Suspicion can be a reflection of a desposition to be sneaky and underhanded! The way forward is not hidden! History is there for examination and the contemporaries exist for questions and answers! Ask the Eastern block Catholic bishops; ask the American collection of bishops; ask the Asians…etc.

***“How does it work, to be in communion with Rome?”

“Were you EVER tricked into anything?”

“What if you don’t agree with something?”

“What time is the last train for Heavensville?”***

!!!..What is that? Do you see yourself as another species or a different people to the rest of humanity!!! Maybe you see us in the West as aliens moving in to implant microchips in your heads, or something!

Catholic unity is not coerced or forced! Unity does not remove your freedom of will!
The ‘arguments’ will continue as they do now, within and without, Catholicism. The world will continue to go round and round and people will continue to struggle along in life, whether Catholic or not! Some of those Somalians ARE Catholics!

Maybe, I do not see the ‘unity’ you are imagining…and fortunately, neither you or I will determine it.

If you want to see what I am “imagining” look no further than the Maronites.

 

[Deconi]

If you want to see what I am “imagining” look no further than the Maronites.

Why not the Chinese Rite, Japanese, Indian, Philipines etc.?

Perhaps you should summarize your views and/or objections.

(Question: Are we missing some posts?)

 

[Madaglan]

Why not the Chinese Rite, Japanese, Indian, Philipines etc.?

Perhaps you should summarize your views and/or objections.

(Question: Are we missing some posts?)

There may have been a Chinese Rite… but sadly the Jesuits lost that one.

I wonder how the missionaries of the Assyrian church tackled the problem centuries earlier.

 

[MariaG]

I used to be hopeful. But truly, how can there ever be reconciliation with the Orthodox when Catholic have to baptized again if they become Orthodox even though they have already been baptized in the Catholic Church?

It is quite clear if Orthodox require Catholics to be baptized again, and not because of documentation or conditional baptism, but are doing so because they do not believe Catholics have a valid baptism, how can there be reconciliation with people who apparently don’t believe Catholics are even Christian in the first place?

It just makes me weep.

 

[brigantine]

I used to be hopeful. But truly, how can there ever be reconciliation with the Orthodox when Catholic have to baptized again if they become Orthodox even though they have already been baptized in the Catholic Church?

It is quite clear if Orthodox require Catholics to be baptized again, and not because of documentation or conditional baptism, but are doing so because they do not believe Catholics have a valid baptism, how can there be reconciliation with people who apparently don’t believe Catholics are even Christian in the first place?

It just makes me weep.

I was raised Roman Catholic and converted to Orthodoxy and was received by way of Chrismation. I was not re-Baptized! There are some Old Calender/Schismatic groups that re-Baptize RCs but they want to do this for some Orthodox they call Graceless also.

 

[MariaG]

I was raised Roman Catholic and converted to Orthodoxy and was received by way of Chrismation. I was not re-Baptized! There are some Old Calender/Schismatic groups that re-Baptize RCs but they want to do this for some Orthodox they call Graceless also.

I am really glad to hear this. In another thread from a now banned patron, she may belong to such a group because she, who had a Protestant baptism, and her 3 children with Catholic Baptisms, were all baptized again because they never had a “valid” baptism. She went on to say that she “felt” that all along.

Clearly, she and the Church she called Orthodox do not believe Catholics have a valid baptism. If one does not have a valid baptism, one cannot be considered Christian either, I would think.

I still don’t have much hope right now. But that really does help. Thank you.

 

[Ad_Gentes]

History is full of injustices. We will have to get passed these if we want to achieve true unity. True unity is not about Orthodox Christians becoming Catholics or Roman Catholics becoming Orthodox. The Church is catholic and the faith orthodox. Compromise is needed in regards with the ecclesiastical structures. This is achievable if we put pride (on both sides) aside.

Doctrine, on the other hand, cannot be compromise since it deals with what we believe to be truths of faith. We can, however, make an effort to understand each other’s doctrinal positions in order to achieve a better understanding on each other’s beliefs. If we do that with honesty, we may discover that we have more in common that we tend to believe. I would venture to say that most of our differences are not doctrinal, but about Church discipline and theologoumenon.

In order to clarify these differences, I believe a true Ecumenical Council of West and East (the “8th” Ecumenical Council, if you will), would be the best instrument for this. It would be an opportunity for the Holy Spirit to guide our Churches into a true understanding of our faith and into true reunification of the one true Church that Christ Our Lord founded. May the Lord hear our prayers.

 

[Madaglan]

I am really glad to hear this. In another thread from a now banned patron, she may belong to such a group because she, who had a Protestant baptism, and her 3 children with Catholic Baptisms, were all baptized again because they never had a “valid” baptism. She went on to say that she “felt” that all along.

Clearly, she and the Church she called Orthodox do not believe Catholics have a valid baptism. If one does not have a valid baptism, one cannot be considered Christian either, I would think.

I still don’t have much hope right now. But that really does help. Thank you.

The Quakers, among other Protestants, don’t have water baptism, yet I’m not willing to say they are non-Christian. I think there is some leeway of consideration. Even where there may not be correct intent, matter and form, think that they may act more Christian than those validly baptized in the Jordan, etc.

The Orthodox see the mysteries, including baptism, as being works within the Church for the salvation of those who are members of the Church (or to become members). Orthodoxy can say that the Holy Spirit is at work in the mysteries within the Church, but Orthodoxy does not categorically declare that the mysteries operate outside the visible Orthodox communion. Orthodoxy, in other words, does not abide by the belief, particularly emphasized by Catholics since Vatican II, that all those baptized are in an imperfect though certain communion with the Catholic Church.

 

[Nine_Two]

History is full of injustices. We will have to get passed these if we want to achieve true unity. True unity is not about Orthodox Christians becoming Catholics or Roman Catholics becoming Orthodox. The Church is catholic and the faith orthodox. Compromise is needed in regards with the ecclesiastical structures. This is achievable if we put pride (on both sides) aside.

Doctrine, on the other hand, cannot be compromise since it deals with what we believe to be truths of faith. We can, however, make an effort to understand each other’s doctrinal positions in order to achieve a better understanding on each other’s beliefs. If we do that with honesty, we may discover that we have more in common that we tend to believe. I would venture to say that most of our differences are not doctrinal, but about Church discipline and theologoumenon.

In order to clarify these differences, I believe a true Ecumenical Council of West and East (the “8th” Ecumenical Council, if you will), would be the best instrument for this. It would be an opportunity for the Holy Spirit to guide our Churches into a true understanding of our faith and into true reunification of the one true Church that Christ Our Lord founded. May the Lord hear our prayers.

I think before anything can happen there will need to be quite a bit of trust between the two sides.

 

[Ad_Gentes]

I completely agree with you, Nine_Two. Maybe that is already happening within the higher levels of our Churches as evident by the many gestures and discussions between recent Popes and Ecumenical Patriarchs. Could it be the Holy Spirit at work? Why is it harder for the faithful to trust each other, than for the hierarchs? Perhaps it’s better to let our Church leaders work towards unity with the help of the Holy Spirit and for us to pray for that unity to happen for the glory of Our Lord Jesus Christ. Amen.

 

[Marie5890]

I completely agree with you, Nine_Two. Maybe that is already happening within the higher levels of our Churches as evident by the many gestures and discussions between recent Popes and Ecumenical Patriarchs. Could it be the Holy Spirit at work? Why is it harder for the faithful to trust each other, than for the hierarchs? Perhaps it’s better to let our Church leaders work towards unity with the help of the Holy Spirit and for us to pray for that unity to happen for the glory of Our Lord Jesus Christ. Amen.

Isnt it true that Pope Benedict and Patriarch Bartholomew are really good friends?

An example of Christian love and discipleship from the both of them to all of us no doubt

 

[Nine_Two]

I completely agree with you, Nine_Two. Maybe that is already happening within the higher levels of our Churches as evident by the many gestures and discussions between recent Popes and Ecumenical Patriarchs. Could it be the Holy Spirit at work? Why is it harder for the faithful to trust each other, than for the hierarchs? Perhaps it’s better to let our Church leaders work towards unity with the help of the Holy Spirit and for us to pray for that unity to happen for the glory of Our Lord Jesus Christ. Amen.

I do agree it is happening, ruling those Anathema’s invalid was probably the act which got it started, but a thousand years of prejudice isn’t going to go away very fast. I do hope to live to see the day when the Patriarch of Rome can celebrate a service (whether it be the Mass or Divine Liturgy) with the other Patriarchs.

 

[spn82756]

I do agree it is happening, ruling those Anathema’s invalid was probably the act which got it started, but a thousand years of prejudice isn’t going to go away very fast. I do hope to live to see the day when the Patriarch of Rome can celebrate a service (whether it be the Mass or Divine Liturgy) with the other Patriarchs.

Me also…BTW…does the Russian Orthodox Church recognize the validity of the Catholic Church?

 

[Nine_Two]

Me also…BTW…does the Russian Orthodox Church recognize the validity of the Catholic Church?

I don’t believe so. The general Orthodox mindset is that we don’t comment on such things outside of Orthodoxy, so while we will comment on whether or not a church is Orthodox and in communion with us, we don’t usually comment on the validity of other churches and their practices. The exceptions to this tend to be when a group is way off mark (so for example there is no formal position on Catholic Baptism, but Mormon baptism is generally rejected).

 

[Ad_Gentes]

Me also…BTW…does the Russian Orthodox Church recognize the validity of the Catholic Church?

Relations between the Roman Catholic Church and the Russian Orthodox Church have not been that great in recent years, especially since Pope John Paul II established several Catholic dioceses within Russia in 2002.

That being said, there have also been increasing friction between the Moscow Patriarchate and the Ecumenical Patriarchate. This friction was evident by the Russian delegation walking out of the Catholic-Orthodox meeting at Ravenna due to the Patriarch of Constantinople inviting representatives from the Estonian Apostolic Orthodox Church. Moscow does not recognize Constantinople’s jurisdiction over the Estonian Church. There was also disagreement over the content of the Declaration of Ravenna, which recognizes, among other things, the bishop of Rome as “protos” among the patriarchs and bishops.

 

[Andrew_Phillip]

**The fact for Catholics to understand is - these intra Orthodox “disputes” are not theological. They are purely jurisdictional and political - so what???

We Orthodox do not have more than 20 theologically distinct “Rites” warring away within our Church - and nor do we have people like the Sedevacantists arguing that our Church Heirarchy is wholly illegitimate.

Smote in our eye… LOG in yours… get over it.**

 

[Andrew_Phillip]

Would our Roman Catholic Bretheren care to explain this:

mostholyfamilymonastery.com/

 

[Andrew_Phillip]

Yes… that’s exactly my point.