Catholic polarization reached new peak

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katherine2:
Except for a flaw in the logic. You need to compare apples to apples. We should be against abortion and for the poor. Yet differences of opinion exist as to if governmental actions to help the poor are truly effective and if governmental actions to limit abortion are truly effective. Personally, I believe in both cases government action is called for and I will advocate for my views with those who disagree with me on one or the other or both.

However, you are on weak ground to say the effectiveness of one set of government actions must be taken on faith while another set is open to discernment.
I guess I didn’t make the argument clear. My support for outlawing abortion is not based on it’s being the most effective means to stop it (we can have that discussion later). I want to outlaw abortion because it is an intrinsic evil.

Material poverty is not an intrinsic evil. Yes, we are called as Christians to help alleviate this, but we can disagree as to the best means of doing this. And because material poverty is not intrinsically evil we are not obligated to support government programs that purport to try to eliminate it.
 
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StJeanneDArc:
I guess I didn’t make the argument clear. My support for outlawing abortion is not based on it’s being the most effective means to stop it (we can have that discussion later). I want to outlaw abortion because it is an intrinsic evil.

Material poverty is not an intrinsic evil. Yes, we are called as Christians to help alleviate this, but we can disagree as to the best means of doing this. And because material poverty is not intrinsically evil we are not obligated to support government programs that purport to try to eliminate it.
But economic injustice is an intrinsic evil. Racism is an intrinisc evil. Defrauding workers of their just wages is an intrinistic evil. Greed in an intrinsic evil. Warmongering is an instrinic evil. The execution of the mentally retarded when they can be removed from society if dangerous is an intrinsic evil. The oppression of women is an intrinsic evil.
 
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katherine2:
But economic injustice is an intrinsic evil. Racism is an intrinisc evil. Defrauding workers of their just wages is an intrinistic evil. Greed in an intrinsic evil. Warmongering is an instrinic evil. The execution of the mentally retarded when they can be removed from society if dangerous is an intrinsic evil. The oppression of women is an intrinsic evil.
Katherine2:
How are you understanding the term “intrinsically evil”? For me, an intrinsic evil is something that is evil in and of itself, e.g., abortion. You gray the line (no pun intended) when you refer to an economic situation as being an intrinsic evil. Economy by itself is not evil in and of itself. Secondly, who is to determine the injustice of an economic situation? Should the same economic standards apply in every culture?

Fiat
 
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katherine2:
But economic injustice is an intrinsic evil. Racism is an intrinisc evil. Defrauding workers of their just wages is an intrinistic evil. Greed in an intrinsic evil. Warmongering is an instrinic evil. The execution of the mentally retarded when they can be removed from society if dangerous is an intrinsic evil. The oppression of women is an intrinsic evil.
Please explain what “economic injustice” is.

You and I are in agreement that most colleges are performing “intrinsice evil” by providing student unions and graduations segregated by race.

Define “defrauding workers.” What about workers who defraud employers (using your definition), is that an intrinsic evil, too? And would you agree with me that there are probably more workers who defraud employers than there are employers who defraud workers?

Define “Greed.”

Define “warmongering.”

Exection of capital offenders is not “intrinsic evil.” If one is “mentally retarded” they would not know what they were doing at the time and would not have been found guilty of a capital crime. If they did know what they did was wrong, then they are not that mentally retarded to be prevented from receiving captial punishment. But they are not being executed BECAUSE they are mentally retarded.

Define “oppression of women.”

Lets see if the slogans you used are definable, then they can be discussed. But mere reciting a bunch of catch words and phrases and one sideness leads to no resolution.
 
jim orr:
Romans 13:8. " Owe nothing to anyone, except to love one another; for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law." I think confiscation by law as opposed to personal giving out of love is not exactly on par with the teaching of Jesus.
This is what can happen when each person tries to interpret the Bible for themselves. How you can come to that conclusion when the prior verse is “Pay to all their dues, taxes to whom taxes are due, …”, I will never understand.
jim orr:
The footnote for your example of Romans 13:6 says - "Caesar is not entitled to obedience when such obedience would nullify God’s prior claim to the believers’ moral decision.’’
I can see this applying to homosexual marriage or using tax dollars to pay for abortions. But standing in opposition to taxes being used to feed the hungry is quite a big stretch.
 
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shockerfan:
Do you really think that government is the best way to deliver programs in lieu of charitable organizations? Please answer this question. I’m curious as to your perspective.
I don’t think it matters. Jesus didn’t tell us to feed the hungry only in the most efficient way, and that if you can’t do it efficiently, then it is better to let the hungry strave to death.
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shockerfan:
Government is not efficient. It is not like a business that must keep costs down, deliver a quality product, and stay competitive.
As a former business consultant, I think the key to efficiency is competition. Organizations that have to compete for their survival either become efficient, or are replaced by other organizations which were more efficient. This is why I am strongly in favor of school vouchers; it is the only way to improve the public school system. When people have a choice between service providers, then service providers become efficient.

Government doesn’t have competition, so it becomes inefficient. However, charitable organizations really don’t have competition either. There’s a reason people say beggars can’t be choosers.
 
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Catholic2003:
This is what can happen when each person tries to interpret the Bible for themselves. How you can come to that conclusion when the prior verse is “Pay to all their dues, taxes to whom taxes are due, …”, I will never understand.
Because the footnote to the first seven verses of Romans Chapter 13 reads as follows: “Paul must come to grips with the problem raised by a message that declares people free from the law. How are they to relate to Roman authority? The problem was exacerbated by the fact that imperial protocol was interwoven with devotion to various deities. Paul builds on the traditional instruction exhibited in Wis 6, 1-3, according to which kings and magistrates rule by consent of God. From this perspective, then, believers who render obedience to the governing authority are obeying the one who is highest in command. At the same time, it is recognized that Caesar has the responsibility to make just ordinances and to command uprightness; cf (compare) Wis 6,4-21. That Caesar is not entited to obedience when such obedience would nullify God’s prior claim to the believers’ moral decision becomes clear in the light of the following verses.” (emphasis added)

We are not dealing with kings or magistrates, a single individual to rule over us, but a random number of elected officials, some of whom we voted on but most of whom we haven’t. It is a different animal we are dealing with then in the days Paul.

As important, Paul was concerned about trouble in the relationship between Roman authority and the followers of Christ if Christ followers were to say they were “free from the law.” He had to devise a reasoning that would protect them from Roman overreaction to the message he was preaching. As was the Book of Revelations written for instruction specifically in that time, so was the verse you quoted to rebuff my comment.
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Catholic2003:
I can see this applying to homosexual marriage or using tax dollars to pay for abortions. But standing in opposition to taxes being used to feed the hungry is quite a big stretch.
My arguement rest on the purpose for which Christ came and his teachings. And his stated purpse and teachings were not to get us to get the government to do what is right, but for us, as individuals, to do what is right which includes feeding the hungry. No government will enter the Kingdom of Heaven, and no individual will, either, on the grounds that he or she supported taxing people in order to feed the hungry.
 
jim orr:
Please explain what “economic injustice” is.
It is an instrinsic evil.
If one is “mentally retarded” they would not know what they were doing at the time and would not have been found guilty of a capital crime.
Unfortunately, that hope has not been realized in our society, though there is legislation to put this cahtolic principle into law.
 
Economic injustice is an intrinsic evil??? This can’t be right.

Is this Catholic dogma? Do you have a cite? And just what is economic injustice? An overpriced sofa?
 
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katherine2:
So you’re saying its a moral good?
No he isn’t saying it is a moral good but it is not on the same level as abortion,cloning,stemcell research,"gay marriage"either.God bless
 
We rarely get a candidate who believes what the Catholic Church believes regarding faith and morals. In other words, were rarely get a candidate with a Catholic view of the world.

We also live in a society where people no longer agree as to what is good and what is evil. It is bad to know what is wrong and do it anyway. It is considerably worse, and pure evil, to decide for one’s self what is right and what is wrong.

Rome had to destroy Carthage because what Rome believed to be good Carthage believed to be evil, and what Rome believed to be evil, Carthage believed to be good.

People cannot peaceably co-exist in a society where what one large group believes to be a most horrendous evil, another large group believes to be its most precious right.

Abortion will rip the United States and the world apart the same way that the babies are being ripped apart. Don’t think there isn’t a horrible war going on in which tens of millions of people are being brutally masacred, because there is. Many people besides babies will end up losing their lives in this battle.

Do you really think that the pro-abortionists are going to limit themselves to killing babies?

No, the incredible hatred that people like Kerry and Kennedy have toward babies will eventual be turned against the rest of us, as well.
 
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