Catholic Polygamy

[tarboy]

No, politics of the day are not justification to change Catholic doctrine
Your post is a strawman since Catholic doctrine is irrelevant to the history of non-Catholic faiths.

However, since you are looking to stir things up, I just found these biblical justifications on a christian polygamy site.

1)Men, including the righteous, practiced it, but were **never rebuked or corrected **for practicing it.
2)The **abuse regulations **prohibit diminishing a wife’s provisions in the case of a subsequent, concurrent marriage, do not prohibit that marriage. This implies acceptance of plural marriage (Ex. 21:10-11).
3)The **adultery laws **(Lev. 18:20; 20:10; Deut. 22:13-27) are defined by the woman’s marital status, never the man’s.
4)The **fornication laws **(Ex. 22:16-17; Deut. 22:28-29) required the man to marry the woman without regard for his marital status (unless the father vetoed the marriage).
5)The Incest Laws prohibit sexual relations with a step-mother (Lev. 18:8). The text does not distinguish consecutive from concurrent step-mother relationships.
6)The **Inheritance Laws **regulated inheritance in re the children of different wives (Deut. 21:15-17), instead of prohibiting polygyny. No distinction is made between consecutive and current wives.
7)Two types of **polygyny were forbidden by law **(sisters as rivals—Lev. 18:18 and excessive and pagan wives for kings—Deut. 17:17), **but not the practice per **se.
8)The creation of a polygynous marriage was not an excuse for not fulfilling the **obligations of the **Levir(Deut. 25: 5-10).
9)God Himself gives plural wives. Indirectly by His righteous priest to King Joash (2 Chron. 24:2-3) and directly to David according to His prophet Nathan (2 Sam. 12:8). God states that He would have given David more wives if he had needed them (to avoid committing adultery with Bathsheba) (2 Sam. 12:8). To argue that God’s offer did not include women as potential wives is contrary to common sense.
10)God **speaks of Himself in terms of polygyny **(Ez. 23:1-4 et passim).

 

[Fatboys]

The child died from measles.

Next Emma gave birth to twins, Thadeus and Louisa, who were born 30 April 1831 at the Morley Farm near Kirtland, Ohio. They died within a few hours of their birth, and their unmarked graves are undoubtedly some place on the Morley Farm. The loss was terrible for Emma.

A memorial marker which makes mention of Emma and Joseph’s twins stands in the cemetery just north of the Temple in Kirtland, Ohio. It was placed in recent years by members of the Joseph Smith Sr. Family Organizations.Sorrow was followed by joy for Emma. Twins Joseph and Julia Murdock, born 1 May were brought to Emma’s arms. Their own mother died shortly after they were born, and their father, unable to care for them, allowed Emma and Joseph to adopt them. She took them to her bosom, loved them, and treasured them, until tragedy struck. A mob broke into their home and dragged Joseph outside, where they beat, tarred, and feathered him. In the process of this event, the babies, who were sick with the measles, were exposed to the cold night air. A few days later on 29 March 1832, little Joseph Murdock Smith died of complications brought on by this exposure. He was buried somewhere on the John Johnson farm at Hyrum, Ohio. His grave is also unmarked.

 

[JustaServant]

.

Fatboys,
you were asked to respond to this post over a week ago:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=9926942&postcount=3
Would you please do so?

 

[zaffiroborant]

Next Emma gave birth to twins, Thadeus and Louisa, who were born 30 April 1831 at the Morley Farm near Kirtland, Ohio. They died within a few hours of their birth, and their unmarked graves are undoubtedly some place on the Morley Farm. The loss was terrible for Emma.

A memorial marker which makes mention of Emma and Joseph’s twins stands in the cemetery just north of the Temple in Kirtland, Ohio. It was placed in recent years by members of the Joseph Smith Sr. Family Organizations.Sorrow was followed by joy for Emma. Twins Joseph and Julia Murdock, born 1 May were brought to Emma’s arms. Their own mother died shortly after they were born, and their father, unable to care for them, allowed Emma and Joseph to adopt them. She took them to her bosom, loved them, and treasured them, until tragedy struck. A mob broke into their home and dragged Joseph outside, where they beat, tarred, and feathered him. In the process of this event, the babies, who were sick with the measles, were exposed to the cold night air. A few days later on 29 March 1832, little Joseph Murdock Smith died of complications brought on by this exposure. He was buried somewhere on the John Johnson farm at Hyrum, Ohio. His grave is also unmarked.

So you say. The child had measles which killed many children, brief exposure to cold air is an unlikely culprit.

 

[Fatboys]

Again I came here because I was doing research trying to find out if the Catholics practices polygamy. I remember reading a couple of articles where it was taught they had during a time many of the men had been killed in fighting a war. I was trying to prove a point to a relative. I was wrong about it. I have been asked to answer certain questions by some of the members here about polygamy. As I stated I am busy, but if I do not answer right away, I am criticized for it. Sorry I will answer them when I get to them, and that is if I remember. So if I do not answer them ask again. I don’t go and read posts to far back, so I honestly might have missed a post. Just re ask

      One of the members here posted a link about the wives of Joseph Smith. Some of them had stories attached to them. I have read the website posted before, and if I had not known any histroy behind these stories, I would have came to the same conclusions. Lets take the first one Fanny Alger. She was sixteen living in the Smith home. She became the first polygamist wife of Joseph Smith. The story goes on to say that Emma found out that they were together when they were discovered in a barn on the hay. Emma was to have spied on them through a crack in the door. This was a rumor spread about them, but had no substance or facts to it. Years later a man by the name of William McLellin stated that Emma had confessed to him that these stories were true. In 1847 McLellin claimed to have visited Emma and she confessed to him that these stories were true. 13 years later he wrote a letter to Joseph Smith lll restating the story and the confessiong of his mother to him. They did not answer back.. 11 years later he attempted the same thing by writting a letter to them. Again no answer. One could say that Emma or Joseph Smith lll did not answer back because they were protecting Joseph Smith the prophet. But the history behind McLellin is that he joined the church was excommunicated, rebaptized, disfellowshipped, and finally excommunicated for the last time. During this time he was part of the mobs, and robbed not only the members of the church but took almost everything in the Joseph Smith while he was in Liberty jail. Emma came back with her children to a bare house. Even their cloths were gone. It was later discovered who had robbed them, and Emma approached McLellin why he would do such a thing during the winter time. His response was, "because I can". So one would have to wonder why Emma would confess anything to a person who not only persecuted them but robbed and mobbed them.

Now this is just one of the women who were supposed to be married to Joseph Smith. Although there were rumors that she was pregnant, there is not recored of a birth. And there is not any documentation to the fact that she was ever pregnant…

    Some of the women who were suppose to have had children by Joseph Smith proposed by a ex member of the church who wrote a book called No man knows my history. Fran Brodie proposed that several women who were married had children by Joseph Smith. Through DNA none have been his. 

 Now I will attemtp to explain modern polygamy reinstated by the Prophet Joseph Smith. In 1831 the Lord told Joseph that this practice was to be brought back. Joseph Smith did nothing about it for several years. It bothered him greatly. He also knew that it would be not only difficult to live financially but all the culture of that day was monogamy. And so he did nothing. He did teach it to some of the brethren but it was kept secret. Joseph also taught it to Emma. He knew Emma well enough to know how she would react. And in fact Joseph Smith tried to teach it one time in Conference. When he came home to dinner, some of the women and men were there and told him they could not live it. So Joseph went back to the next session and said forget what I taught. They were not ready to live it. And ofcourse it was kept secret. Both inside and out of the church did not accept it. Joseph did the best he could in teaching it to those who he felt were faithful to learn it. But by no means was it popular. This is the reason that it was not revealed to the general public until 1843. There were plenty of rumors about it, but the church as a whole were not required to live until then. And then it was very limited as to who could live it.

 

[Fatboys]

So you say. The child had measles which killed many children, brief exposure to cold air is an unlikely culprit.

This is your opinion. You were not there, and you can say anything you like about it. But the fact is that the children were exposed to the cold night air because people who confessed to follow Jesus took a man and beat him and then tarred and feathered him, just like Jesus taught us to do. In their minds the exposure played a big part in the death of this child. Even if all the things ever said bad about Joseph Smith, were true, it did not warrent him to be murdered along with his brother. And I am telling you that there is plenty of documentation to prove that many of the false statements are just that, false. And yet there are people who feel good that he was murdered. Did you know that not once was Joseph Smith ever convicted of any crime? That many times those who were his jailers let him go because of the nonsense of the claims after they got to know him. So even though the children had measles, that certainly did not give anyone the right to take the law into their own hands. Do you disagree?

 

[JustaServant]

Again I came here because I was doing research trying to find out if the Catholics practices polygamy. I remember reading a couple of articles where it was taught they had during a time many of the men had been killed in fighting a war. I was trying to prove a point to a relative. I was wrong about it. I have been asked to answer certain questions by some of the members here about polygamy. As I stated I am busy, but if I do not answer right away, I am criticized for it. Sorry I will answer them when I get to them, and that is if I remember. So if I do not answer them ask again. I don’t go and read posts to far back, so I honestly might have missed a post. Just re ask.

Which is what I did, so why don’t you answer it?

 

[Fatboys]

Which is what I did, so why don’t you answer it?

ask again, sorry I probably missed it

 

[twopekinguys]

This is your opinion. You were not there, and you can say anything you like about it. But the fact is that the children were exposed to the cold night air because people who confessed to follow Jesus took a man and beat him and then tarred and feathered him, just like Jesus taught us to do. In their minds the exposure played a big part in the death of this child. Even if all the things ever said bad about Joseph Smith, were true, it did not warrent him to be murdered along with his brother. And I am telling you that there is plenty of documentation to prove that many of the false statements are just that, false. And yet there are people who feel good that he was murdered. Did you know that not once was Joseph Smith ever convicted of any crime? That many times those who were his jailers let him go because of the nonsense of the claims after they got to know him. So even though the children had measles, that certainly did not give anyone the right to take the law into their own hands. Do you disagree?

Just like it is your “opinion” they died from exposure.

What you’re referring to is from josephsmithjr dot org. Hardly a reliable or neutral source.

As far as “taking the law into their own hands”, isn’t that exactly what smith did with the printing press in nauvoo?

How about ignoring the laws of the land, and the Kirtland Bank failure.

Sidney Rigdon issued this statement during his 4th of July speech, a full **3 months before **the Missouri Extermination order was issued.

“The man or the set of men, who attempts it, does it at the expense of their lives. And that mob that comes on us to disturb us; it shall be between us and them a war of extermination, for we will follow them, till the last drop of their blood is spilled, or else they will have to exterminate us: for we will carry the seat of war to their own houses, and their own families, and one party or the other shall be utterly destroyed. – Remember it then all MEN.”

Read the entire speech here.

Yes, JS was convicted of a crime, and the proof has been shown on more than one occasion.

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

Also, what you are referring to about the jailers letting him go, is merely “being run out of town on a rail”. Which is what they did to criminals. Instead of having to lock them up, and take care of them, make them someone else’s problem. I thought that would be rather obvious.

When are mormon’s going to take responsibility for their own history?

Did you know that JS killed at least one man during the shoot out at carthage? It is in your own church history, as testified to by Elder Reed Blake.

 

[Fatboys]

Just like it is your “opinion” they died from exposure.

What you’re referring to is from josephsmithjr dot org. Hardly a reliable or neutral source.

As far as “taking the law into their own hands”, isn’t that exactly what smith did with the printing press in nauvoo?

How about ignoring the laws of the land, and the Kirtland Bank failure.

Sidney Rigdon issued this statement during his 4th of July speech, a full **3 months before **the Missouri Extermination order was issued.

“The man or the set of men, who attempts it, does it at the expense of their lives. And that mob that comes on us to disturb us; it shall be between us and them a war of extermination, for we will follow them, till the last drop of their blood is spilled, or else they will have to exterminate us: for we will carry the seat of war to their own houses, and their own families, and one party or the other shall be utterly destroyed. – Remember it then all MEN.”

Read the entire speech here.

Yes, JS was convicted of a crime, and the proof has been shown on more than one occasion.

Also, what you are referring to about the jailers letting him go, is merely “being run out of town on a rail”. Which is what they did to criminals. Instead of having to lock them up, and take care of them, make them someone else’s problem. I thought that would be rather obvious.

When are mormon’s going to take responsibility for their own history?

Did you know that JS killed at least one man during the shoot out at carthage? It is in your own church history, as testified to by Elder Reed Blake.

And your sources come from those who hate mormons. So what? You were not there, and this is what they recoreded. And the 1826 trial was not a trial. He was accused by the sons of his employer who would not stand against Joseph Smith. Who later joined the church. And he was not found guilty of anything. He was to be bound over, but because the person who was suppose to speak against Joseph Smith did not, it was thrown out. And I can see that you really have a bad attitude towards what ever I bring up about Joseph Smith. Why, I do not know.

 

[twopekinguys]

And your sources come from those who hate mormons. So what? You were not there, and this is what they recoreded. And the 1826 trial was not a trial. He was accused by the sons of his employer who would not stand against Joseph Smith. Who later joined the church. And he was not found guilty of anything. He was to be bound over, but because the person who was suppose to speak against Joseph Smith did not, it was thrown out. And I can see that you really have a bad attitude towards what ever I bring up about Joseph Smith. Why, I do not know.

Every innocent person pays court costs and fines? Right. Go with that.

Sidney Rigdon’s own comments are from people who hate mormons? Right.

You know, this whole thing about being recorded incorrectly when it is something that shows mormonism in a bad light is really an old and useless ploy. It has been done over, and over, and over.

I don’t have a bad attitude about anyone, or anything, however, I do have a problem with con men, and false prophets. Have you ever heard the expression…“If it walks like a duck, and talks like a duck, chances are, it’s a duck.” Smith is a DUCK

Think about it. Smith had 9 versions of his first vision. He had numerous failed prophecies. He cause a bank collapse, and profited from it. He was accused more than once of being a con man (and convicted), but yet, it’s everyone else’s fault? Everyone is just picking on him right? Really?

I noticed you ignored the issue of Smith killing someone at Carthage, quoted by your own church history. (is that a mormon hate site too?)

The whole persecution this is old too. It’s been done to death.

I’m just sayin.

By the way, we are all waiting for references for many of your bogus claims. Take your time, we’re patient.

 

[Fatboys]

Just like it is your “opinion” they died from exposure.

What you’re referring to is from josephsmithjr dot org. Hardly a reliable or neutral source.

As far as “taking the law into their own hands”, isn’t that exactly what smith did with the printing press in nauvoo?

How about ignoring the laws of the land, and the Kirtland Bank failure.

Sidney Rigdon issued this statement during his 4th of July speech, a full **3 months before **the Missouri Extermination order was issued.

“The man or the set of men, who attempts it, does it at the expense of their lives. And that mob that comes on us to disturb us; it shall be between us and them a war of extermination, for we will follow them, till the last drop of their blood is spilled, or else they will have to exterminate us: for we will carry the seat of war to their own houses, and their own families, and one party or the other shall be utterly destroyed. – Remember it then all MEN.”

Read the entire speech here.

Yes, JS was convicted of a crime, and the proof has been shown on more than one occasion.

Also, what you are referring to about the jailers letting him go, is merely “being run out of town on a rail”. Which is what they did to criminals. Instead of having to lock them up, and take care of them, make them someone else’s problem. I thought that would be rather obvious.

When are mormon’s going to take responsibility for their own history?

Did you know that JS killed at least one man during the shoot out at carthage? It is in your own church history, as testified to by Elder Reed Blake.

He did not know whether or not he shot anyone, no one knows. There were 200 mobbers and they had a six shooter that had three misfires. Joseph Smith just saw his brother shot in the head and fall dead. And this is suppose to be okay? Are you joking? It is to bad that he only shot one if he did. He was defending not only his life, but the lives of all that were in the jail with him by choice. Tell me how you would react… Joseph Smith gave himself up to the authorities with the promise from the Gov. that he and those with him would be protected. The Govenors miltia that put him in Carthage jail left just after that. Sound like honest people? Now I can be tolerant of peoples ignorance, but if someone wanted to take my home and land from me, they would have a fight on their hands. Nauvoo was a swamp no one wanted. The mormons drained it and made it a beautiful city that was nearly as large as Chicago. Joseph Smith made mistakes, and is certainly not perfect, but he did not do anything that the law would have deemed as so bad that capital punishment was needed. And yet that means nothing to you. That the history of the United States has such a blemish on its record as to deny the very rights of worship promised us in the Constitution. All in the name of their God.

 

[Fatboys]

Every innocent person pays court costs and fines? Right. Go with that.

Sidney Rigdon’s own comments are from people who hate mormons? Right.

You know, this whole thing about being recorded incorrectly when it is something that shows mormonism in a bad light is really an old and useless ploy. It has been done over, and over, and over.

I don’t have a bad attitude about anyone, or anything, however, I do have a problem with con men, and false prophets. Have you ever heard the expression…“If it walks like a duck, and talks like a duck, chances are, it’s a duck.” Smith is a DUCK

Think about it. Smith had 9 versions of his first vision. He had numerous failed prophecies. He cause a bank collapse, and profited from it. He was accused more than once of being a con man (and convicted), but yet, it’s everyone else’s fault? Everyone is just picking on him right? Really?

I noticed you ignored the issue of Smith killing someone at Carthage, quoted by your own church history. (is that a mormon hate site too?)

The whole persecution this is old too. It’s been done to death.

I’m just sayin.

By the way, we are all waiting for references for many of your bogus claims. Take your time, we’re patient.

Stop it… I am not going to answer any more of your posts if you do not stick to one question. You have so much anger that it would do very little to explain anything to you. Look i do not agree with some of Catholic doctrines which are not biblical, but I certainly will not attack them as you have attacked me and my beliefs. I respect your right to believe them.

 

[twopekinguys]

Stop it… I am not going to answer any more of your posts if you do not stick to one question. You have so much anger that it would do very little to explain anything to you. Look i do not agree with some of Catholic doctrines which are not biblical, but I certainly will not attack them as you have attacked me and my beliefs. I respect your right to believe them.

First of all, I suggest you do not presume to tell me I “have so much anger”. Who do you think you are talking to? You do not know me, or anything about me, so I would tread very lightly.

Where have I attacked your beliefs? Show me one. I have merely stated facts, and by the way, I have provided references (which you have failed to do on more than one occasion). In essence, please keep your false accusations to yourself, and everything will be fine.

Show us one Catholic doctrine that is not biblical. You have made a claim, back it up. You have gotten off easy with making claims and statements that you have not backed up.

I will not let this one go. If you do not provide something to back up your statements, I will make sure the mods find about it.

We have all seen the misquoted, mistranslated, misrepresented and misunderstood cards played over the years.

WE all await your response.

 

[JustaServant]

ask again, sorry I probably missed it

Real cute dude.
You started the thread I cited, you make assertions and then duck out when asked for documentation.
Typical.

 

[zaffiroborant]

This is your opinion. You were not there, and you can say anything you like about it. But the fact is that the children were exposed to the cold night air In their minds the exposure played a big part in the death of this child.

A brief exposure to mildly cold weather (Nauvoo is not that cold at the end of March, beginning of April) will not cause death even in someone already ill.

This is your opinion. You were not there, and you can say anything you like about it. But the fact is that the children were exposed to the cold night air because people who confessed to follow Jesus took a man and beat him and then tarred and feathered him, just like Jesus taught us to do. In their minds the exposure played a big part in the death of this child. Even if all the things ever said bad about Joseph Smith, were true, it did not warrent him to be murdered along with his brother. And I am telling you that there is plenty of documentation to prove that many of the false statements are just that, false. And yet there are people who feel good that he was murdered. Did you know that not once was Joseph Smith ever convicted of any crime? That many times those who were his jailers let him go because of the nonsense of the claims after they got to know him. So even though the children had measles, that certainly did not give anyone the right to take the law into their own hands. Do you disagree?

I never addressed anything in your disconnected rant, but no, no one has the right to take the law into their own hands.

 

[JustaServant]

First of all, I suggest you do not presume to tell me I “have so much anger”. Who do you think you are talking to? You do not know me, or anything about me, so I would tread very lightly.

Where have I attacked your beliefs? Show me one. I have merely stated facts, and by the way, I have provided references (which you have failed to do on more than one occasion). In essence, please keep your false accusations to yourself, and everything will be fine.

Show us one Catholic doctrine that is not biblical. You have made a claim, back it up. You have gotten off easy with making claims and statements that you have not backed up.

I will not let this one go. If you do not provide something to back up your statements, I will make sure the mods find about it.

We have all seen the misquoted, mistranslated, misrepresented and misunderstood cards played over the years.

WE all await your response.

You hit a nerve with your post. That’s why he’s lapsing into persecution mode.

 

[zaffiroborant]

That the history of the United States has such a blemish on its record as to deny the very rights of worship promised us in the Constitution. All in the name of their God.

And JS has that blemish on his record of denying freedom of the press as promised in the Constitution all to cover up his secret polygamy, aka adultery.

 

[twopekinguys]

You hit a nerve with your post. That’s why he’s lapsing into persecution mode.

Ya think!?!..LOL

I am not going to let him off the hook on his non Biblical Catholic doctrine statement though. He’s gotten off way too easy so far.

If he doesn’t answer this one, then I guess the mods will have to get involved.

 

[twopekinguys]

He did not know whether or not he shot anyone, no one knows. There were 200 mobbers and they had a six shooter that had three misfires. Joseph Smith just saw his brother shot in the head and fall dead. And this is suppose to be okay? Are you joking? It is to bad that he only shot one if he did. He was defending not only his life, but the lives of all that were in the jail with him by choice. Tell me how you would react… Joseph Smith gave himself up to the authorities with the promise from the Gov. that he and those with him would be protected. The Govenors miltia that put him in Carthage jail left just after that. Sound like honest people? Now I can be tolerant of peoples ignorance, but if someone wanted to take my home and land from me, they would have a fight on their hands. Nauvoo was a swamp no one wanted. The mormons drained it and made it a beautiful city that was nearly as large as Chicago. Joseph Smith made mistakes, and is certainly not perfect, but he did not do anything that the law would have deemed as so bad that capital punishment was needed. And yet that means nothing to you. That the history of the United States has such a blemish on its record as to deny the very rights of worship promised us in the Constitution. All in the name of their God.

You are trying to equate mob action with government action. Apples and oranges, don’t you think?

By the way, it is rumored that many in the crowd were mormons.