Catholic position on spirit guides

[Hunter24]

Ok, so I had a rather interesting conversation with a co-worker today. She is a practicing Catholic, goes to church, does her best to be a good person, and is probably one of the best catholics i know in general.

She said that recently she has had over a half dozen dreams that involve a Lynx. On a couple ocasions she said it has also talked to her. She feals like it is supposed to mean something and she wants to try and communicate with it, but she does not know what the church’s possition on dream entitys is.

I suggested that it may be a spirit guide, a spirit very similar in Native American religion and Paganism to the christian idea of a guardian angle. The Lynx generaly symbolises knowledge related things; secrets, open mindedness, and divination. I sugested it may have something to tell her or to help her with.

So, my question is, what is the cathoic position on her trying to converse with it the next time she encounters it in a dream. Would the church say its just a dream and nothing more? could it be considered her gaurdian angel trying to help her? or would it be considered by christians as something demonic as something to be avoided? I know christians dont beleave animals have spirits but then just assume it is something taking that particular form. she is going to talk to her priest but hes a older guy who is pretty easy going on most stuff, so i figured i might as well ask all you experts here on this forum, what would be the churches position? can she talk to it without breaking catholic rules?

 

[Trishie]

unhealthydevotions.com/new-age/spirit-guide-channeling-ascended-masters.htm

 

[po18guy]

Bad idea. She needs to speak with a Priest. From the catechism:

2115 God can reveal the future to his prophets or to other saints. Still, a sound Christian attitude consists in putting oneself confidently into the hands of Providence for whatever concerns the future, and giving up all unhealthy curiosity about it. Improvidence, however, can constitute a lack of responsibility.

2116 All forms of divination are to be rejected: recourse to Satan or demons, conjuring up the dead or other practices falsely supposed to “unveil” the future.48 Consulting horoscopes, astrology, palm reading, interpretation of omens and lots, the phenomena of clairvoyance, and recourse to mediums all conceal a desire for power over time, history, and, in the last analysis, other human beings, as well as a wish to conciliate hidden powers. They contradict the honor, respect, and loving fear that we owe to God alone.

2117 All practices of magic or sorcery, by which one attempts to tame occult powers, so as to place them at one’s service and have a supernatural power over others - even if this were for the sake of restoring their health - are gravely contrary to the virtue of religion. These practices are even more to be condemned when accompanied by the intention of harming someone, or when they have recourse to the intervention of demons. Wearing charms is also reprehensible. Spiritism often implies divination or magical practices; the Church for her part warns the faithful against it. Recourse to so-called traditional cures does not justify either the invocation of evil powers or the exploitation of another’s credulity.

 

[Trishie]

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/interelg/documents/rc_pc_interelg_doc_20030203_press-conf-new-age_en.html

catholicinsight.com/online/theology/article_653.shtml

thetablet.co.uk/article/3695

 

[St_Francis]

Ok, so I had a rather interesting conversation with a co-worker today. She is a practicing Catholic, goes to church, does her best to be a good person, and is probably one of the best catholics i know in general.

She said that recently she has had over a half dozen dreams that involve a Lynx. On a couple ocasions she said it has also talked to her. She feals like it is supposed to mean something and she wants to try and communicate with it, but she does not know what the church’s possition on dream entitys is.

I suggested that it may be a spirit guide, a spirit very similar in Native American religion and Paganism to the christian idea of a guardian angle. The Lynx generaly symbolises knowledge related things; secrets, open mindedness, and divination. I sugested it may have something to tell her or to help her with.

So, my question is, what is the cathoic position on her trying to converse with it the next time she encounters it in a dream. Would the church say its just a dream and nothing more? could it be considered her gaurdian angel trying to help her? or would it be considered by christians as something demonic as something to be avoided? I know christians dont beleave animals have spirits but then just assume it is something taking that particular form. she is going to talk to her priest but hes a older guy who is pretty easy going on most stuff, so i figured i might as well ask all you experts here on this forum, what would be the churches position? can she talk to it without breaking catholic rules?

I think it is really great that you are finding out the Catholic position on this for your friend who is Catholic–so many people wouldn’t go that extra step

 

[rinnie]

Ok, so I had a rather interesting conversation with a co-worker today. She is a practicing Catholic, goes to church, does her best to be a good person, and is probably one of the best catholics i know in general.

She said that recently she has had over a half dozen dreams that involve a Lynx. On a couple ocasions she said it has also talked to her. She feals like it is supposed to mean something and she wants to try and communicate with it, but she does not know what the church’s possition on dream entitys is.

I suggested that it may be a spirit guide, a spirit very similar in Native American religion and Paganism to the christian idea of a guardian angle. The Lynx generaly symbolises knowledge related things; secrets, open mindedness, and divination. I sugested it may have something to tell her or to help her with.

So, my question is, what is the cathoic position on her trying to converse with it the next time she encounters it in a dream. Would the church say its just a dream and nothing more? could it be considered her gaurdian angel trying to help her? or would it be considered by christians as something demonic as something to be avoided? I know christians dont beleave animals have spirits but then just assume it is something taking that particular form. she is going to talk to her priest but hes a older guy who is pretty easy going on most stuff, so i figured i might as well ask all you experts here on this forum, what would be the churches position? can she talk to it without breaking catholic rules?

Well from scripture we learn alot from our dreams. The Blessed Mother had a angel appear to her, St Joseph etc.

But if God wants to speak to her in a dream he will make it quite clear when and what it is he wants her to know.

For now I would tell her not to worry about it. Maybe God wants her to get a kitten just kidding.

I would tell her to spend her time in prayer, not to worry about what her dreams mean. She would get much better results in praying the rosary. Trust me, It works.

May I also comment you for asking about her faith, so she would not sin and break a commandment of God. I wish there were more out there like you.

Give yourself a hug from the ole Rin!

 

[Mintaka]

First off, if it were God or an angel or a deceased relative or other saint talking to her in a dream, she’d know.

If it were any other kind of spirit, she shouldn’t want to talk to it. No offense, but from the Catholic point of view, that’s just hinky.

Now, of course it’s perfectly possible to have recurring dreams with various sorts of casts of characters. Certain kinds of writers and artists have this kind of dream; it’s not uncommon.

There are also plenty of people who like to be able to have “lucid dreams” which they control and interact with, instead of just riding them out. I’m told that the best way to do this is just to tell yourself when you’re falling asleep that you’re going to control your dreams.

If you combine the two, it’s perfectly possible to have conversations with your mental cast of characters. I’ve never done it myself, but then, I almost never remember my dreams so there’s no point.

I suppose your friend might get a certain amount of psychological insight (or just entertainment) from talking to a recurring lynx. But a lynx probably comes from National Geographic Channel or from a recent trip to a zoo, not from any kind of spirit guide thing.

 

[R_C]

The Doctor Mysticus St. John of the Cross wrote wonderful works on these topics. So did St. Teresa of Avila. More recently, we find the “Compendium of ascetic and mystic theology” by Fr. Adolphe Tanquerey.

Anything supernatural - be it visions, voices, interior locutions, or whatever - must be not only disregarded, but treated like an enemy. The soul that does not do so - or worse, that grows attached to such phenomena - will fall in the tricks of the adversary.

The Lord rejoices in a quiet, recollected soul. To the most spiritual and elevated souls, those of His saints that we read about, the Lord has granted such an excruciating path of self-renounciation that culminates with what is known as the “dark night of the soul”, in which the soul does not even perceive God’s presence - it’s the “dry cross” that St. John of the Cross describes, in which we suffer in the darkness and we are attached to nothing.

After such a harsh path, those wonderful souls have experienced visions, interior locutions, extasies…and yet they have always been subject to the opinion and will of their confessor or spiritual director.

St. Maria Faustina of the Blessed Sacrament - whom we call the apostle of divine mercy - was chosen by the Lord as one of the very few to see Him and talk to Him personally. Yet, when her confessor told her to disregard all those events as illusions, she would reply to the Lord: “Jesus, I can no longer do anything You command me to do, because my confessor has told me that all this is an illusion, and that I am not allowed to obey any of Your commands. I will do nothing that You will tell me to do now. I am sorry, my Lord, but I am not allowed to do anything, and I must obey my confessor.” To which the Lord replied: “Always tell your confessor about everything I say to you and command you to do, and do only that for which you obtain permission.”

Since we poor souls are just a little above nothing, we ought to reject any such manifestation immediately and talk to our confessor or spiritural director…or to any priest. It is dangerous to do otherwise.

 

[Actaeon]

Ok, so I had a rather interesting conversation with a co-worker today. She is a practicing Catholic, goes to church, does her best to be a good person, and is probably one of the best catholics i know in general.

She said that recently she has had over a half dozen dreams that involve a Lynx. On a couple ocasions she said it has also talked to her. She feals like it is supposed to mean something and she wants to try and communicate with it, but she does not know what the church’s possition on dream entitys is.

I suggested that it may be a spirit guide, a spirit very similar in Native American religion and Paganism to the christian idea of a guardian angle. The Lynx generaly symbolises knowledge related things; secrets, open mindedness, and divination. I sugested it may have something to tell her or to help her with.

So, my question is, what is the cathoic position on her trying to converse with it the next time she encounters it in a dream. Would the church say its just a dream and nothing more? could it be considered her gaurdian angel trying to help her? or would it be considered by christians as something demonic as something to be avoided? I know christians dont beleave animals have spirits but then just assume it is something taking that particular form. she is going to talk to her priest but hes a older guy who is pretty easy going on most stuff, so i figured i might as well ask all you experts here on this forum, what would be the churches position? can she talk to it without breaking catholic rules?

The Catholic position is that any form of divination, including all attempts to converse with spirits, are dangerous and wrong.

If she feels that this is somehow more than a dream, some sort of spiritual manifestation, then she should seek counsel from a priest (who will know what to do and may offer her a blessing or refer her to more help). Conversing with spirits is dangerous, and in no way akin to our Guardian Angels… furthermore, the good, the saintly, the Angelic, and the Divine, do not disguise themselves when they have need to reveal themselves to us. Those who see true apparitions know immediately who is addressing them.

 

[R_C]

Those who see true apparitions know immediately who is addressing them.

In a way yes, or so do our mystic saints of old tell us…but they also tell us that the prince of darkness can appear as an angel of light, and our dearly beloved Lord warned us that “false Christs” would come and deceive even the saints, if it were possible…

“…ne nos inducas in tentationem, sed libera nos a malo…”

 

[Hunter24]

The Catholic position is that any form of divination, including all attempts to converse with spirits, are dangerous and wrong.

If she feels that this is somehow more than a dream, some sort of spiritual manifestation, then she should seek counsel from a priest (who will know what to do and may offer her a blessing or refer her to more help). Conversing with spirits is dangerous, and in no way akin to our Guardian Angels… furthermore, the good, the saintly, the Angelic, and the Divine, do not disguise themselves when they have need to reveal themselves to us. Those who see true apparitions know immediately who is addressing them.

So angles only appear with giant eagles wings wearing robes or centurion armor? Spirit guides do not take that form to hide their identity. Also, conversing with a spirit guide is not a form of divination. People do not consult a spirit guide to learn the future, they do so for advice. Now I know Christians beleave all spirits outside god are evil, I was just wondering if a Christian could see this as a guardian angle. It certainly seams to be more than a dream because she usualy doesnt remember dreams but these she can recall vividly.

I personally encouraged her to speek with it because I have received help from my own guide on a few occasions. She’s a very strong catholic so she wants to keep in line with the church, which is why I posted here. She said she talked to her priest and he said that if she feals it’s more than just a dream then she should proceed with caution and pray about it. So we will see what happens.

 

[R_C]

I personally encouraged her to speek with it because I have received help from my own guide on a few occasions.

And based on what tradition and teachings do you speak?

The Catholic church has almost two thousand years of experience in discerning spirits and in rejecting the suggestions of Satan and his demons. There are literally countless occasions in which men have either deluded themselves with imaginary visions and dreams or Satan has made a fool of them by tricking them into believing that it was God who was speaking to them.

Satan disguises himself as an angel of light, and he will try his best to make people believe that what He is telling them is good. Just think of how he tempted the Lord by quoting the Holy Scriptures, as if he wanted to help Him…

Now the Church tells us that these “revelations” are to be treated with extreme prudence and that until proper discernment is done by a qualified priest they ought to be disregarded and treated as enemies. Any attachment to these phenomena will bring only trouble.

I will quote a statement by saint John of the Cross, the first discalded Carmelite friar, who lived a life of mortification and intense union with God, who was renowned for his astonishing discernment of spirits and cardiognosis, and who was famous for his exorcisms in which he would discern the presence of the devil where everyone else had failed. He is honored as a Doctor of the Church, the Mystic Doctor.

the devil causes many to believe in vain visions and false prophecies; and strives to make them presume that God and the saints are speaking with them; and they often trust their own fancy. And the devil is also accustomed, in this state, to fill them with presumption and pride, so that they become attracted by vanity and arrogance, and allow themselves to be seen engaging in outward acts which appear holy, such as raptures and other manifestations. Thus they become bold with God, and lose holy fear, which is the key and the custodian of all the virtues; and in some of these souls so many are the falsehoods and deceits which tend to multiply, and so inveterate do they grow, that it is very doubtful if such souls will return to the pure road of virtue and true spirituality."

“It is always well, then, that the soul should reject these things, and close its eyes to them, whencesoever they come. For, unless it does so, it will prepare the way for those things that come from the devil, and will give him such influence that, not only will his visions come in place of God’s, but his visions will begin to increase, and those of God to cease, in such manner that the devil will have all the power and God will have none. So it has happened to many incautious and ignorant souls, who rely on these things to such an extent that many of them have found it hard to return to God in purity of faith; and many have been unable to return, so securely has the devil rooted himself in them; for which reason it is well to resist and reject them all. For, by the rejection of evil visions, the errors of the devil are avoided, and by the rejection of good visions no hindrance is offered to faith and the spirit harvests the fruit of them.”

It is clear, then, that these sensual apprehensions and visions cannot be a means to union, since they bear no proportion to God; and this was one of the reasons why Christ desired that the Magdalene and Saint Thomas should not touch Him. And so the devil rejoices greatly when a soul desires to receive revelations, and when he sees it inclined to them, for he has then a great occasion and opportunity to insinuate errors and, in so far as he is able, to derogate from faith; for, as I have said, he renders the soul that desires them very gross, and at times even leads it into many temptations and unseemly ways.

Libera nos, quaesumus, Domine, ab omnibus malis

 

[Hunter24]

And based on what tradition and teachings do you speak?

The Catholic church has almost two thousand years of experience in discerning spirits and in rejecting the suggestions of Satan and his demons. There are literally countless occasions in which men have either deluded themselves with imaginary visions and dreams or Satan has made a fool of them by tricking them into believing that it was God who was speaking to them.

Satan disguises himself as an angel of light, and he will try his best to make people believe that what He is telling them is good. Just think of how he tempted the Lord by quoting the Holy Scriptures, as if he wanted to help Him…

Now the Church tells us that these “revelations” are to be treated with extreme prudence and that until proper discernment is done by a qualified priest they ought to be disregarded and treated as enemies. Any attachment to these phenomena will bring only trouble.

I will quote a statement by saint John of the Cross, the first discalded Carmelite friar, who lived a life of mortification and intense union with God, who was renowned for his astonishing discernment of spirits and cardiognosis, and who was famous for his exorcisms in which he would discern the presence of the devil where everyone else had failed. He is honored as a Doctor of the Church, the Mystic Doctor.

Libera nos, quaesumus, Domine, ab omnibus malis

I’m a Wiccan so on that tradition. Animal guides have been used by the native people’s of north America for thousands of years. As a solitary eclectic Wiccan I’ve incorporated some of their practices into mine (which is extreamly common). They have been helping people for thousands of years and mine has on several occasions given me good advice, this is why I suggested she speek with it. However she is a strong catholic and does not want to break church doctrine which is fine.

Don’t think im foolish enough as to beleave all spirits are good, because ive encountered some who are certainly malevolent. However my religion does not take the stance that all spirits are evil, they run the full range of personalitys. A guide however, is a spirit tied to a person. Although guides may change in a persons life with the new challenges that arise they are connected to a person and help them much like a guardian angle.

 

[R_C]

It’s not, dear Hunter, a matter of how clever you are…those creatures are far more clever than the wisest of us, and they are able to do evil through apparently good actions and suggestions.

That is not to say that the Lord has not been sending His messengers to help His people, and I am not saying that what she is seeing - if it’s not a product of her immagination - is evil.

My religion takes the stance that all spirits were created good and that those who opposed God behave now out of hatred towards Him and their sole objective is to hurt man in the delusion that this way they are hurting God. All “good” spirits now act in perfect conformity with God’s will, be it the guardian angel that each of us has, or angels in charge of places or nations or groups of people.

As for our guardian angel, we have been praying to him for centuries:

Angele Dei, qui custos es mei, me, tibi commissum pietate superna, illumina, custodi, rege et guberna.

So we acknowledge that he is our custodian or guardian, that we are commited to him by the piety of God, and we ask him not just to give us light and to guard over us, but to guide us, and even to rule over us.

As for all other such spirits, only a priest appointed by the bishop or the bishop himself is authorized by the Church to interact with them for discernment and for the purpose of driving them away. This is clearly stated in the Inde Ab Aliquot Annis (emphasis mine):

Christ’s faithful may not employ the formula of exorcism against Satan and the fallen angels which is excerpted from that formula made official by order of the Supreme Pontiff Leo XIII, and certainly may not use the entire text of that exorcism. …] Bishops are asked to guard lest those who lack the required power attempt to lead assemblies in which prayers are employed to obtain liberation from demons, and in the course of which the demons are directly disturbed and an attempt is made to determine their identity.

Now that I say this, I would advice her to find a medal of S. Benedict and have a priest impose upon it the special blessing it requires, for it carries on it a prayer to curb the influence of Satan. The prayer “anima Christi” is also of great help. It is also well-known that the prayer of the Rosary drives Satan away. S. Padre Pio used to call it “his weapon” in the spiritual combat…

…numquam suade mihi vana…

 

[Hunter24]

It’s not, dear Hunter, a matter of how clever you are…those creatures are far more clever than the wisest of us, and they are able to do evil through apparently good actions and suggestions.

That is not to say that the Lord has not been sending His messengers to help His people, and I am not saying that what she is seeing - if it’s not a product of her immagination - is evil.

My religion takes the stance that all spirits were created good and that those who opposed God behave now out of hatred towards Him and their sole objective is to hurt man in the delusion that this way they are hurting God. All “good” spirits now act in perfect conformity with God’s will, be it the guardian angel that each of us has, or angels in charge of places or nations or groups of people.

As for our guardian angel, we have been praying to him for centuries:

So we acknowledge that he is our custodian or guardian, that we are commited to him by the piety of God, and we ask him not just to give us light and to guard over us, but to guide us, and even to rule over us.

As for all other such spirits, only a priest appointed by the bishop or the bishop himself is authorized by the Church to interact with them for discernment and for the purpose of driving them away. This is clearly stated in the Inde Ab Aliquot Annis (emphasis mine):

Now that I say this, I would advice her to find a medal of S. Benedict and have a priest impose upon it the special blessing it requires, for it carries on it a prayer to curb the influence of Satan. The prayer “anima Christi” is also of great help. It is also well-known that the prayer of the Rosary drives Satan away. S. Padre Pio used to call it “his weapon” in the spiritual combat…

…numquam suade mihi vana…

Thanks for this advice, I will pass it on to her. Also, it certainly isn’t a matter of cleverness, it’s a matter of discerning intention. If a person is properly developed in dealing with the Occult they should be able to pick up on the aura of a particular spirit. Not to say this could not be disguised by a malevolent spirit. Spirit guides have hurt noone that I know of, and in my religion they are not seen as rebelling against god because God is made up of all spirits, including both us and them. In Wicca the only way to rebel against the entirety of God would be to attempt to destroy all of existence.

 

[R_C]

What can I tell you? I believe that “whatever is good or true in other religions comes from God and is a reflection of his truth” and that the fullness of the divine revelation has been given through Christ, who said:

You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know

Pax Christi tecum!

 

[Hunter24]

What can I tell you? I believe that “whatever is good or true in other religions comes from God and is a reflection of his truth” and that the fullness of the divine revelation has been given through Christ, who said:

Pax Christi tecum!

Indeed, I would agree. For a Christian, what needs to be known is given. Religion is the study material and life is a pass/fail test for admitence into heaven. Christianity is seen as the answer key and other religions are like improperly taken notes, still some truth but not correct in total.

For a Wiccan like myself life is an endless cycle of death and rebirth, where with each life our soul gains more knowledge of existence. A never ending journey.

 

[R_C]

Indeed, I would agree. For a Christian, what needs to be known is given. Religion is the study material and life is a pass/fail test for admitence into heaven. Christianity is seen as the answer key and other religions are like improperly taken notes, still some truth but not correct in total.

For a Wiccan like myself life is an endless cycle of death and rebirth, where with each life our soul gains more knowledge of existence. A never ending journey.

That is not entirely exact

For a Christian, we believe the words that God spoke when He said:

“I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord ,’ because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest,” declares the Lord.

This revelation was confirmed by Jesus Christ:

But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and will remind you of all that I said to you.

So we live and learn, all knowledge already being written in our heart and mind, whether we know Christ or not. Religion is how we relate to God, and life is the time we have to show to God that we love Him, and the only way to show that love is by how much we love each other.

We do not see Christianity as the answer key, we know that Christ is the truth, and that “whoever is not with Him is against Him”. Thus, by saying that whatever is good in other religions comes from God and is a reflection of His truth", we are saying that salvation is truly universal, for to “fail” admission into the state of heaven - the state in which we are at the presence of God - we ought to reject truth, preferring darkness to light.

You profess a belief in a cycle of death and rebirth, but we know - and we have really good reasons and evidence - that there are two births - from our mother and from water and spirit), and eternal life afterwards; and that after the physical death we either live separated from God (hell) or at His presence (heaven, though we may need some purification which we call the state of purgatory).

I do not say: “become Catholic or else” All I dare to say is:

seek and you will find …] you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free

 

[Hunter24]

That is not entirely exact

For a Christian, we believe the words that God spoke when He said:

This revelation was confirmed by Jesus Christ:

So we live and learn, all knowledge already being written in our heart and mind, whether we know Christ or not. Religion is how we relate to God, and life is the time we have to show to God that we love Him, and the only way to show that love is by how much we love each other.

We do not see Christianity as the answer key, we know that Christ is the truth, and that “whoever is not with Him is against Him”. Thus, by saying that whatever is good in other religions comes from God and is a reflection of His truth", we are saying that salvation is truly universal, for to “fail” admission into the state of heaven - the state in which we are at the presence of God - we ought to reject truth, preferring darkness to light.

You profess a belief in a cycle of death and rebirth, but we know - and we have really good reasons and evidence - that there are two births - from our mother and from water and spirit), and eternal life afterwards; and that after the physical death we either live separated from God (hell) or at His presence (heaven, though we may need some purification which we call the state of purgatory).

I do not say: “become Catholic or else” All I dare to say is:

A good explanation:thumbsup:. May I ask what evidence there is of a perminant afterlife? I know people testify of one but everyone who comes back from the dead only spent a few minuets there.

 

[R_C]

A good explanation:thumbsup:. May I ask what evidence there is of a perminant afterlife? I know people testify of one but everyone who comes back from the dead only spent a few minuets there.

Thanks

I won’t give you a short and imprecise answer, rather I’ll wrap up some thoughts and post a bit later. But there have been in the history of the Church countless “private revelations” from God or from the departed souls, which witness to the existence of those three states: permanent rejection, temporary purification, presence. Which is not to say that for mysterious reasons the faithful departed have not been allowed sometimes to manifest themselves spiritually on this world.