Catholic predestination?

[Aelred_Minor]

Insofar as I can tell (you paint in broad strokes, and nuances are needed), the view you call “Augustinian” (Bañezian-Thomist, insofar as I can tell) that you hold is allowed by the Roman church, as is the traditional Molinism that Contarini mentioned. (Salvation based on foreseen - instead of “predestined” - merits, modern Molinism-Arminianism, is heresy.)

I don’t think the Catholic Church has defined “predestination” to salvation based on God’s foreknowledge of merits as heretical. If you can prove me wrong go ahead, indeed I would welcome it since I believe predestination post praevisa merita is a serious error. This position that God bases his predestination on his foreknowledge of men’s choices was, I believe, that of Molina though not of Suarez.

 

[JamesTheJust]

Here’s classic article by Jimmy (then James) Akin on the subject. It explores the issue through the method of seeing how close to Calvinism a Catholic can get without heresy, which maybe isn’t the best overall approach but the information is pretty good. Also it does not even mention Fr. Most, which is refreshing for me personally.

ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/TULIP.htm

Personally I’m more and more convinced that the “Banezian” Thomist position is the correct one, inasmuch as the human intellect can even approach this mystery that is.

Thanks for the link! That article’s pretty great! I never knew Jimmy used to be a Calvinist. It will definitely be taken in as one of my resources in the aforementioned study I am planning. My sympathies lie with what the article call the Molinist view on the idea of irresistible grace, but I’ll have to investigate further to see how I feel about the other letters of TULIP. As the article says, the study of salvation is truly a tiptoe through complicated terms and concepts. Thank you for your response! Any further info or articles you have would be very much appreciated!

 

[HardRockGTR]

There was this one heresy that Blaise Pascal and his siblings followed. If my memory is correct, it was Jansenism, which combined Catholic dogma and theology with Calvinism, a deterministic theology in Protestantism.

That said, it was considered heresy.

 

[Lion_Heart]

Hi everyone, greetings in Christ with love,

PREDESTINATION IS ONE OF THE CENTRAL TEACHINGS OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA The predestination of the elect

Quote: “Consequently, the whole future membership of heaven, down to its minutest details, … has been irrevocably fixed from all eternity. Nor could it be otherwise. For if it were possible that a predestined individual should after all be cast into hell or that one not predestined should in the end reach heaven, then God would have been mistaken in his foreknowledge of future events; He would no longer be omniscient.” End quote

TO GO TO HEAVEN, WE HAVE TO BE AMONG THE ELECTS.

With love in Christ,
LH

 

[Aelred_Minor]

Hi everyone, greetings in Christ with love,

PREDESTINATION IS ONE OF THE CENTRAL TEACHINGS OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA The predestination of the elect

Quote: “Consequently, the whole future membership of heaven, down to its minutest details, … has been irrevocably fixed from all eternity. Nor could it be otherwise. For if it were possible that a predestined individual should after all be cast into hell or that one not predestined should in the end reach heaven, then God would have been mistaken in his foreknowledge of future events; He would no longer be omniscient.” End quote

TO GO TO HEAVEN, WE HAVE TO BE AMONG THE ELECTS.

With love in Christ,
LH

Good point, and all the more poignant considering that this Catholic Encyclopedia has, or at least some of its articles have, a very strong Molinist bias to the point that it is generally a poor resource for understanding the subject in general.

 

[Aelred_Minor]

Thanks for the link! That article’s pretty great! I never knew Jimmy used to be a Calvinist. It will definitely be taken in as one of my resources in the aforementioned study I am planning. My sympathies lie with what the article call the Molinist view on the idea of irresistible grace, but I’ll have to investigate further to see how I feel about the other letters of TULIP. As the article says, the study of salvation is truly a tiptoe through complicated terms and concepts. Thank you for your response! Any further info or articles you have would be very much appreciated!

I encourage you to keep looking into it. Most of us have initial sympathies for the Molinist position because it is most similar to the grade-school level explanations we usually receive about the subject growing up and because it is hard for us to grasp at first how intrinsically efficacious grace does not force the will to do anything. I now believe that the Thomist view is the more complete and logically consistent view. In particular I like the approach of Fr. Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange, which while vigorously endorsing and explaining the traditional Thomist position also maintains a high degree of awareness of the mysterious nature of the subject, like the impossibility of a human being fully understanding the reconciliation between mercy and justice in the sovereign will of God.

 

[Lion_Heart]

Good point, and all the more poignant considering that this Catholic Encyclopedia has, or at least some of its articles have, a very strong Molinist bias to the point that it is generally a poor resource for understanding the subject in general.

Greetings in Christ, Aelred Minor

You are right, I have noticed your concern as well. It is a distressing situation. The truth is, if we don’t have Bible knowledge, we are like a soldier in the middle of a minefield without the map of that mine field.

In like manner, we are in the middle of a spiritual mine field (Matt.7:15-18; Matt.13:24-30, 36-43; Matt.24:4-5, 11, 24; Acts 20:29-31; 2 Cor.11:13-15; 2 Pet.2:1-3; Jude 4), and our Bible is the map of this spiritual minefield (2 Tim.3:16).

I also agree with you concerning predestination to Glory/Heaven, that the “Thomist view is the more complete and logically consistent view.”

According to John Salza Scripture Catholic III. Predestination and the “Elect”
We have double predestination. Predestination to Glory/Heaven and predestination to Grace. According to John Salza apologetics, all those people whom God has predestined to grace, He will cast all of them to hell.

I have no problems with double predestination. I have a problem accepting the end result of God’s predestination to grace.

I hesitate to accept the view that all people whom God has predestined to grace He will cast all of them to hell. That would mean: Christ at His 2nd coming, instead of taking over Satan’s Kingdom, and restoring the whole creation (Acts 3:21; Matt.19:28), He will depopulate the whole world, by casting to hell all predestined to grace with those who rejected the grace of God.

If the above doctrine is correct:

1. From the world population, God has predestined a limited number of people to heaven BY INVITATION ONLY.
2. The rest of the world population has no chance for salvation at all, and will never have.
3. The rest of the population of the world will have no other dwelling place apart from hell.

PREDESTINATION TO GLORY
This is an UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION, based on God’s eternal decree, (God’s choice/by invitation only).
The names of the elects, and their full number is completed before the creation of the world.
Destination is Heaven. The predestined cannot lose their salvation.
Style of the election: Thomism [After Thomas Aquinas (1225 - 1274)].

Continue

 

[Lion_Heart]

I would like to have your view and also the view of the readers, on the way I see our other doctrine: “Predestination to grace.”
If I’m incorrect please correct me.

PREDESTINATION TO GRACE
This is a CONDITIONAL ELECTION, based on God’s foreknowledge of our response to His grace, (elects choice).
It is up to the individuals to accept it, or reject it, or accept it for a while and then reject it, but in this case, their names never were among the predestined.

The names of the elects, and their full number is completed before the creation of the world.
Destination is God’s Kingdom on earth.
The predestined cannot lose their salvation.

Style of the election: Molinism [After Luis de Molina (1535 - 1600)].
This predestination seems to consistent with Deut.30:19-20; Ez.36:24-28; Amos 9:14-15; Is.19:19-25; Matt.13:29-30, 40-43; Matt.25:31-46, and of course the same principle apply to all nations.

The JUSTIFICATION and SALVATION of those who are predestined to grace exactly the same as those who are predestined to heaven.

They are NOT saved by their works, but by Grace alone, solely on account of the work of Christ. Their salvation is God’s gift, so as their merit which will be rewarded by God.
Reward cannot be everlasting life, or entrance into the Kingdom of God, but reward IN the Kingdom of God.

Matt 25:31-46.
In the case of the sheep, Christ is simply speaking about the FRUITS of their salvation.
They CANNOT be saved by works, because there is only one doctrine of salvation for everyone, and in our Catholic Church that doctrine of salvation is: “SALVATION BY GRACE ALONE (sola gratia), SOLELY ON THE ACCOUNT OF THE WORK OF CHRIST (solo Christo).
We OBTAIN our salvation by FAITH ALONE (sola fide formata).

THE FRUITS OF SALVATION/SUPERNATURAL MERIT, CAN NEVER BE THE CAUSE OF SALVATION.

In the case of the goats, Christ is speaking of the FRUITS of the REJECTION of God’ grace and their salvation.

As long as Thomists and Molinists are thinking in two dimensions, heaven and hell, they can never be reconciled with each other, the reconciliation is in three dimensions, heaven, hell, and the restored earth by recreation.

“YOUR KINGDOM COME, YOUR WLL BE DONE, ON EARTH AS IT IS IN HEAVEN.”
When the Thomists and Molinists will realize for what they are praying for centuries, they will reconcile with each other.

This world at present is the Kingdom of Satan (Matt.4:8-9; Luke 4:5-7), but after Christ 2nd coming will be the Kingdom of God (Rev.11:15; Matt.13:41-43), and will have plenty of love, happiness, and dwelling place there.

The outline of God’s prophecies that the KINGDOM OF SATAN become the KINGDOM OF GOD.

1. The DURATION of God’s Kingdom on earth is described in Daniel 2:44; Daniel 7:14; Daniel 7:27.
2. The time of the CHANGEOVER of the KINGDOM from Satan to Christ, described in Daniel 7:13-14; Daniel 7:21-22; DANIEL 7:26-27; REVELATION 11:15.
3. The CLEANING up of the Kingdom of God is described in Matthew 13:41-42.
4. The LIFE IN THE KINGDOM OF GOD is described in Isaiah 11:6-9; Isaiah 51:3; Isaiah 52:9-10; Isaiah 65:20-25; Zechariah 8:3-8.

There is no doubt when Christ comes back the second time with His angels (Matt.24:29-31) and with all His saints (Zech.14:4-5; Jude 14-15; Matt.19:27-28), He will takes over Satan’s kingdom and will be a literal kingdom on this earth.

Christ will rule in His kingdom with His saints (Daniel 7:13-14, 21-22, 26-27; 1 Pet.2:9; Rev.20:5).
This kingdom is an EVERLASTING kingdom and will NEVER end (Daniel 2:44; Daniel 7:14, 27).

With love in Christ,
LH

 

[Randy_Carson]

Greetings in Christ, Aelred Minor

You are right, I have noticed your concern as well. It is a distressing situation. The truth is, if we don’t have Bible knowledge, we are like a soldier in the middle of a minefield without the map of that mine field.

In like manner, we are in the middle of a spiritual mine field (Matt.7:15-18; Matt.13:24-30, 36-43; Matt.24:4-5, 11, 24; Acts 20:29-31; 2 Cor.11:13-15; 2 Pet.2:1-3; Jude 4), and our Bible is the map of this spiritual minefield (2 Tim.3:16).

I also agree with you concerning predestination to Glory/Heaven, that the “Thomist view is the more complete and logically consistent view.”

According to John Salza Scripture Catholic III. Predestination and the “Elect”
We have double predestination. Predestination to Glory/Heaven and predestination to Grace. According to John Salza apologetics, all those people whom God has predestined to grace, He will cast all of them to hell.

I have no problems with double predestination. I have a problem accepting the end result of God’s predestination to grace.

I hesitate to accept the view that all people whom God has predestined to grace He will cast all of them to hell. That would mean: Christ at His 2nd coming, instead of taking over Satan’s Kingdom, and restoring the whole creation (Acts 3:21; Matt.19:28), He will depopulate the whole world, by casting to hell all predestined to grace with those who rejected the grace of God.

If the above doctrine is correct:

1. From the world population, God has predestined a limited number of people to heaven BY INVITATION ONLY.
2. The rest of the world population has no chance for salvation at all, and will never have.
3. The rest of the population of the world will have no other dwelling place apart from hell.

PREDESTINATION TO GLORY
This is an UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION, based on God’s eternal decree, (God’s choice/by invitation only).
The names of the elects, and their full number is completed before the creation of the world.
Destination is Heaven. The predestined cannot lose their salvation.
Style of the election: Thomism [After Thomas Aquinas (1225 - 1274)].

Continue

Not sure from the above which are your words and which are those of John Salza. But I wish to post this from Jimmy Akin, CA Staffer:

Although a Catholic may agree with unconditional election, he may not affirm “double-predestination,” a doctrine Calvinists often infer from it. This teaching claims that in addition to electing some people to salvation God also sends others to damnation.

The alternative to double-predestination is to say that while God predestines some people, he simply passes over the remainder. They will not come to God, but it is because of their inherent sin, not because God damns them. This is the doctrine of passive reprobation, which Aquinas taught [16].

The Council of Trent stated, “If anyone says that it is not in the power of man to make his ways evil, but that God produces the evil as well as the good works, not only by permission, but also properly and of himself, so that the betrayal of Judas is no less his own proper work than the vocation of Paul, let him be anathema… If anyone shall say that the grace of justification is attained by those only who are predestined unto life, but that all others, who are called, are called indeed, but do not receive grace, as if they are by divine power predestined to evil, let him be anathema.” [17]

ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/TULIP.htm

Not everyone agreed with Akin, however:

catechism.cc/articles/catholic-soteriology-versus.htm

 

[Goya]

Thanks for the link! That article’s pretty great! I never knew Jimmy used to be a Calvinist. It will definitely be taken in as one of my resources in the aforementioned study I am planning. My sympathies lie with what the article call the Molinist view on the idea of irresistible grace, but I’ll have to investigate further to see how I feel about the other letters of TULIP. As the article says, the study of salvation is truly a tiptoe through complicated terms and concepts. Thank you for your response! Any further info or articles you have would be very much appreciated!

FWIW, I wrestled with predestination a few years back (prompted by a Calvinist), and it gave me fits, as it seems to patently contradict our notions of free will, and responsibility for our own actions, consequences for our choices, Catholic moral teaching, etc. (e.g.–if I am predestined to salvation (or not, as the case may be)–doesn’t it naturally follow that any effort on my part, is pointless?

But I’ll share with you, my conclusion, and spare you the painful details of how I got there–although quite frankly, I came full circle to where I began. Well, I’ll volunteer this much–reading St. Augustine was very helpful to me.

Anyway, here’s the bottom line, from a lay, simple man’s perspective–St. Augustine, dumbed down (so I can understand it, not you–Im just hoping you might find it helpful as well):

Yes, we (the Catholic Church) profess and believe in predestination, and ‘the elect’;

However, we don’t dwell on it (as the Calvinists do), because it is of no practical significance.

God knows whether or not we are predestined to salvation; we don’t. It’s simply not ours to know. God is outside of time; we are bound by time. God knows how our struggles with the Faith will play out; we don’t.

By analogy–the rules of the game are spelled out through ‘the Faith’. Predestination is God knowing who won, and who lost in the game. God already saw the game; he knows who will win, and who will not. But we don’t.

So it is incumbent upon us, to play the game according to the rules (the Faith/free will) the best we can.

Hence our salvation destiny is ‘predestined’ to God–not to us. To us, our salvation destiny is according to the Lord’s mercy, and to our response in Faith.

…and therefore we must still heed the words of St. Paul, gravely:

“…work out your own salvation with trembling and fear.” Phil, 2:12.

 

[porthos11]

FWIW, I wrestled with predestination a few years back (prompted by a Calvinist), and it gave me fits, as it seems to patently contradict our notions of free will, and responsibility for our own actions, consequences for our choices, Catholic moral teaching, etc. (e.g.–if I am predestined to salvation (or not, as the case may be)–doesn’t it naturally follow that any effort on my part, is pointless?

But I’ll share with you, my conclusion, and spare you the painful details of how I got there–although quite frankly, I came full circle to where I began. Well, I’ll volunteer this much–reading St. Augustine was very helpful to me.

Anyway, here’s the bottom line, from a lay, simple man’s perspective–St. Augustine, dumbed down (so I can understand it, not you–Im just hoping you might find it helpful as well):

Yes, we (the Catholic Church) profess and believe in predestination, and ‘the elect’;

However, we don’t dwell on it (as the Calvinists do), because it is of no practical significance.

God knows whether or not we are predestined to salvation; we don’t. It’s simply not ours to know. God is outside of time; we are bound by time. God knows how our struggles with the Faith will play out; we don’t.

By analogy–the rules of the game are spelled out through ‘the Faith’. Predestination is God knowing who won, and who lost in the game. God already saw the game; he knows who will win, and who will not. But we don’t.

So it is incumbent upon us, to play the game according to the rules (the Faith/free will) the best we can.

Hence our salvation destiny is ‘predestined’ to God–not to us. To us, our salvation destiny is according to the Lord’s mercy, and to our response in Faith.

…and therefore we must still heed the words of St. Paul, gravely:

“…work out your own salvation with trembling and fear.” Phil, 2:12.

Actually, predestination is more than just God knowing. The dogma of predestination actually also includes God’s will, that is, he intends and decrees that certain people will go to heaven, for no reason other than his will and pleasure, then works with those people’s free wills to ensure that his decree is secured. How this happens, however, is not defined, and the Church has allowed both the Thomist and Molinist schools of throught to be held.

 

[Goya]

Actually, predestination is more than just God knowing. The dogma of predestination actually also includes God’s will, that is, he intends and decrees that certain people will go to heaven, for no reason other than his will and pleasure, then works with those people’s free wills to ensure that his decree is secured. How this happens, however, is not defined, and the Church has allowed both the Thomist and Molinist schools of throught to be held.

I don’t dispute that; in fact, I concur. My post was just a simplification–from our perspective. God knowing and/or willing, to us, makes no difference. It’s still not ours to know, not known, and not knowable by us.

What the Lord has entrusted to us–life itself and everything that entails, and our free will–compels us to seek His love and guidance (His Church, scripture, the Holy Spirit…), and to respond in faith, that our response in Faith, may evoke His mercy, enable us to accept His love, and to serve Him and His Will, to the best of our abilities, and as best as we can ascertain (His Will, that is). Our charge then, is to deploy our free will to full charity–to love and serve the Lord in faith, with our whole being, and to love ‘our neighbor’ fully, sincerely, and without reservation.

Our ultimate destiny is, as it always was and always will be, subject to the Lord’s omnipotent and Holy Will.

To speculate as to our final destiny, imo, serves only to frustrate and/or confuse our ‘charge’–to lose focus on what the Lord called and instructed us to. That’s my ‘issue’ with predestination. It causes more problems to worry about it, than to simply acknowledge it, and move on.

 

[Aelred_Minor]

Greetings in Christ, Aelred Minor

You are right, I have noticed your concern as well. It is a distressing situation. The truth is, if we don’t have Bible knowledge, we are like a soldier in the middle of a minefield without the map of that mine field.

In like manner, we are in the middle of a spiritual mine field (Matt.7:15-18; Matt.13:24-30, 36-43; Matt.24:4-5, 11, 24; Acts 20:29-31; 2 Cor.11:13-15; 2 Pet.2:1-3; Jude 4), and our Bible is the map of this spiritual minefield (2 Tim.3:16).

I also agree with you concerning predestination to Glory/Heaven, that the “Thomist view is the more complete and logically consistent view.”

According to John Salza Scripture Catholic III. Predestination and the “Elect”
We have double predestination. Predestination to Glory/Heaven and predestination to Grace. According to John Salza apologetics, all those people whom God has predestined to grace, He will cast all of them to hell.

I have no problems with double predestination. I have a problem accepting the end result of God’s predestination to grace.

I hesitate to accept the view that all people whom God has predestined to grace He will cast all of them to hell. That would mean: Christ at His 2nd coming, instead of taking over Satan’s Kingdom, and restoring the whole creation (Acts 3:21; Matt.19:28), He will depopulate the whole world, by casting to hell all predestined to grace with those who rejected the grace of God.

If the above doctrine is correct:

1. From the world population, God has predestined a limited number of people to heaven BY INVITATION ONLY.
2. The rest of the world population has no chance for salvation at all, and will never have.
3. The rest of the population of the world will have no other dwelling place apart from hell.

PREDESTINATION TO GLORY
This is an UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION, based on God’s eternal decree, (God’s choice/by invitation only).
The names of the elects, and their full number is completed before the creation of the world.
Destination is Heaven. The predestined cannot lose their salvation.
Style of the election: Thomism [After Thomas Aquinas (1225 - 1274)].

Continue

I’m having a little trouble following your train of thought, but the term “double predestination” usually refers to the idea of predestination to heaven and to hell, and this idea the Catholic Church rejects. Certainly you can fine-tune your approach to predestination so that you could distinguish different forms, but that does not make it double predestination in the way the term is virtually always used.

If we must speak of predestination to grace, then all of us have it, the elect and the reprobate. All of us are given sufficient grace for salvation, and so you could say we were “predestined” to receive this. But this “predestination to grace” (I do not know if this is the sense in which John Salza used the term) is in no way a predictor of final salvation one way or the other. Final salvation relies upon sufficient grace being made efficacious by God, so that we freely cooperate with it, and furthermore it requires that the gift of final perseverance be efficaciously granted so that we may remain in the state of grace at the hour of death.

Generally, we Catholics use the word “predestination” to mean specifically predestination to final salvation. If we wished to designate a second, lesser form of predestination the more natural choice would be predestination to initial justification, regardless of whether the individual is also predestined to persevere to the end. Obviously someone who is predestined only to initial justification and not to final perseverance will go to hell, but they will do it through their own sin and not through any action of God. We Catholics, including Thomists, never speak of anyone being predestined to hell because this would imply that God positively worked towards their damnation, which is a downright blasphemous thought.

 

[Lion_Heart]

Not sure from the above which are your words and which are those of John Salza. But I wish to post this from Jimmy Akin, CA Staffer:

Greeting in Christ, Randy Carson

Scripture Catholic by John Salza. (Catholic Apologetics)
III. Predestination and the “Elect”
Quote: “There are two types of predestination, TWO GRACE and TWO GLORY. … Predestination is either to grace (which we could lose) or to glory (which we cannot lose). … 1 Tim.2:6 – Jesus Christ gave Himself as a ransom for all (not just for the elect). But only those predestined to glory will be saved.” End quote. (Emphasize mine.)

TWO PREDESTINATIONS:
a. PREDESTINATION TO GLORY. DESTINATION IS HEAVEN.

This is NOT a public predestination.
Canon 4 of the Council of Orange (529 AD) declares:
“The will is prepared by the Lord.” – John 6:44-45.
God has chosen the predestined without violating the free will.
In John 6:65 and in John 15:16 Christ makes it very clear, this predestination is by invitation only.

THE BASIS OF THIS PREDESTINATION
2 Tim.1:9 … Not according to our works, but according to HIS OWN PURPOSE …
Eph.1:5 … According to THE GOOD PLEASURE OF HIS WILL, …
John 15:16 … You DID NOT choose Me, but I CHOSE YOU …

The basis of the predestination to heaven is SOLELY GOD’S CHOICE.
Individual decisions have NOTHING TO DO WITH IT.
As James Akins teach: This is an unconditional election to heaven.
He is perfectly right, because to be predestined to heaven is NOTHING TO DO WITH OUR DECISION. It is SOLELY God’s decision.

b. PREDESTINATION TO GRACE. DESTINATION IS HELL.
Here we have the MOST serious problem because Salza is claiming:
All whom God has predestined to grace will end up in hell.

Salza knows and rightly so, the destination of this predestination cannot be heaven, and as we think in TWO DIMENSIONS heaven and hell, Salza has no other choice, he (and all of us) must conclude: The destination of this predestination cannot be any other place then hell.

The Church fathers didn’t think in two dimensions, THEY TAUGHT THREE DIMENSIONS: Heaven, God’s kingdom on earth and hell.
As far the individuals eternity is concerned the Word of God describes THREE DIMENSIONS as well: Heaven, God’s kingdom on earth, and hell.

This world at present is the Kingdom of Satan (Matt.4:8-9; Luke 4:5-7), but after Christ 2nd coming will be the Kingdom of God (Rev.11:15; Matt.13:41-43).

The outline of God’s prophecies are that the KINGDOM OF SATAN becomes the KINGDOM OF GOD.

1. The DURATION of God’s Kingdom on earth is described in Daniel 2:44; Daniel 7:14; Daniel 7:27.
2. The time of the CHANGEOVER of the KINGDOM from Satan to Christ, described in Daniel 7:13-14; Daniel 7:21-22; DANIEL 7:26-27; REVELATION 11:15.
3. The CLEANING up of the Kingdom of God is described in Matthew 13:41-42.
4. The LIFE IN THE KINGDOM OF GOD is described in Isaiah 11:6-9; Isaiah 51:3; Isaiah 52:9-10; Isaiah 65:20-25; Zechariah 8:3-8, etc.

There is no doubt when Christ comes back the second time with His angels (Matt.24:29-31) and with all His saints (Zech.14:4-5; Jude 14-15; Matt.19:27-28), He will take over Satan’s kingdom and will be a literal kingdom on this earth. – Rev.11:15

Christ will rule in His kingdom with His saints (Daniel 7:13-14, 21-22, 26-27; 1 Pet.2:9; Rev.20:5). This kingdom is an EVERLASTING kingdom and will NEVER end (Daniel 2:44; Daniel 7:14, 27).

PREDESTINATION TO GRACE. DESTINATION IS HELL.
As long as Salza and we are thinking in two dimension: There is no other way, the above statement is correct.

When we think in THREE DIMENSIONS like the Church fathers did, and as the Bible describes the eternity of the people in the THRE DIMENSIONS: Heaven, God’s Kingdom on earth, and hell then we will KNOW, the destination of the PREDESTINATION TO GRACE is not hell but GOD’S KINGDOM ON EARTH.

PREDESTINATION TO THE KINGDOM OF GOD ON EARTH
This is a CONDITIONAL ELECTION, based on God’s foreknowledge of our response to His grace, (elects choice).

It is up to the individuals to accept it, or reject it, or accept it for a while and then reject it, but in this case, their names never were among the predestined.

The names of the elects, and their full number is completed before the creation of the world.
Destination is God’s Kingdom on earth.
The predestined cannot lose their salvation.
Style of the election: Molinism [After Luis de Molina (1535 - 1600)].

This predestination is consistent with Deut.30:19-20; Ez.36:24-28; Amos 9:14-15; Is.19:19-25; Matt.13:29-30, 40-43; Matt.25:31-46, and of course the same principle applies to all nations.

The JUSTIFICATION and SALVATION of those who are predestined to the Kingdom of God on earth exactly the same as those who are predestined to heaven.

They are NOT saved by their works, but by Grace alone, solely on account of the work of Christ.
Their salvation is God’s gift, so as their merit which will be rewarded by God.
Reward cannot be everlasting life or entrance into the Kingdom of God but reward IN the Kingdom of God.

With love in Christ,
LH

 

[Richca]

I hope this is in the correct forum. Anyway, predestination is one of the doctrines of the Church that really gives me pause, because I really don’t know exactly what it is. I was reading the book of Wisdom, and 3:9 says, “[God’s] care is with the elect”. This sparked my interest, so I was wondering if any of you wise men of CAF could explain to me what the Church teaches on this. As I understand it, there is an elect, to whom God gives efficacious grace, so that they 100% will definitely be saved. But to all others, He gives sufficient grace, so that they might be saved, if they choose to accept this grace. I also understand that is a sin to believe that one knows whether or not one is an elect. So, to sum up my understanding:
Worst case scenario: only the elect are saved.
Best case scenario: all are saved.

Please tell me whether or not this soteriology is correct and, if it is contrary to Church teaching, please instruct me on what is correct. Thank you all in advance!

Hi James,
I agree with THR1292 and I highly recommend the book Fr Most wrote “Grace, Predestination, and The Salvific Will of God.” This book is consistent with Holy Scripture, the teaching of the Catholic Church, and the CCC. Banezianism/Thomism and the Molinism of world orders cannot be reconciled with God’s universal salfivic will to save all mankind. These systems are based on the theory of a “principle of predilection.” This theory states that even before God foreknows how a person will respond to His grace He alone decides the eternal lot of every human being. For all practical purposes it amounts to a double predestination to either heaven or hell and this cannot be admitted by catholics.

CCC#1037 says “God predestines no one to hell.” The corollary of this is that God must initially predestine everyone to heaven. Is not God our Father and does not all mankind have the same end, namely, the beatific vision? Only those go to hell who persistently refuse God’s grace to the end. St Thomas Aquinas says "And since this ability to impede or not impede the reception of divine grace is within the scope of free choice, not undeservedly is responsibility for the fault imputed to him who offers an impediment to the reception of grace. In fact, as far as He is concerned, God is ready to give grace to all; indeed “he wills all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth” (1 Tim 2:4). But those alone are deprived of grace who offer an obstacle within themselves to grace. (Summa Contra Gentiles, Book 3, Chapter 159).

CCC#600 says “When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of “predestination”, he includes in it each person’s free response to his grace.”

Further, the CCC#605 says:
"At the end of the parable of the lost sheep Jesus recalled that God’s love excludes no one: “So it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish.” He affirms that he came “to give his life as a ransom for many”; this last term is not restrictive, but contrasts the whole of humanity with the unique person of the redeemer who hands himself over to save us. The Church, following the apostles, teaches that Christ died for all men without exception: “There is not, never has been, and never will be a single human being for whom Christ did not suffer.”

Since Christ suffered His cruel passion, crucifiction, and death for every single human being and thereby showing His love for every single human being that they might get to heaven; I do not know how you reconcile this with a “principle of predilection.” Nor do I know how you reconcile a “principle of predilection” with God’s vehement desire to save all men as evidenced by Christ’s passion, crucifiction and death.

Since God predestines no one to hell and sincerely desires that all human beings be saved, it appears the “elect” of God are those who do not resist His grace. The “elect” of God may also refer to full membership in the Church or to the chosen people of Israel which Fr Most refers to as the external economy. It is in this sense that “God will have mercy on whom he will have mercy.” Though even in this sense, God does not do anything without His wisdom. The internal economy refers to the eternal lot or destiny of every single person. As we have seen, God sincerely and vehemently desires the salvation of all mankind; and that whether they have full membership in the Church or not or whether in Old Testament times a person was of the chosen people of Israel or not. St Augustine applied the principle of the external economy to the internal economy from his exegesis of Romans 9. However, all biblical scholars and exegetes today say that St Paul was not talking about the eternal lot of each man in this chapter but the election of Israel as the chosen people of God.

St Thomas Aquinas, working under the impressive weight of St Augustine in the Golden Age of Scholasticism, felt obliged to accept Augustine’s interpretation of Romans 9. Thus, we find traces of this line of thought in his Summa Theologica especially in his articles on predestination. However, he held another line of thought from 1 Timothy 2:4 which I quoted above from his Summa Contra Gentiles. Knowing that he was working with divine mysteries and not knowing how to reconcile the two lines of thought, he simply admitted both and wrote with lesser clarity in these instances than his usual style.

 

[Richca]

I hope this is in the correct forum. Anyway, predestination is one of the doctrines of the Church that really gives me pause, because I really don’t know exactly what it is. I was reading the book of Wisdom, and 3:9 says, “[God’s] care is with the elect”. This sparked my interest, so I was wondering if any of you wise men of CAF could explain to me what the Church teaches on this. As I understand it, there is an elect, to whom God gives efficacious grace, so that they 100% will definitely be saved. But to all others, He gives sufficient grace, so that they might be saved, if they choose to accept this grace. I also understand that is a sin to believe that one knows whether or not one is an elect. So, to sum up my understanding:
Worst case scenario: only the elect are saved.
Best case scenario: all are saved.

Please tell me whether or not this soteriology is correct and, if it is contrary to Church teaching, please instruct me on what is correct. Thank you all in advance!

Hi James,
In sort of a continuation of my last post, I would like to explain what is meant by efficacious and sufficient grace as you appear to understand it in your post. You do understand it correctly according to Banezianism/Thomism predestination. In this theory of predestination, a human being must receive an efficacious grace from God to perform a salutary good act. Efficacious grace infallibly moves man to perform a salutary good act. Sufficient grace does not move man to perform a good act. Indeed, if God does not give efficacious grace, the result of sufficient grace is sin. Now the Banezianism/Thomists say that if a man does not resist sufficient grace he will be given efficacious grace from God. However, to not resist sufficient grace, an efficacious grace is necessary.

As I said in my previous post, the predestination of Banezianism/Thomism and the Molinism of world orders is based on the “principle of predilection.” This principle is culled essentially from St Augustine’s interpretation of Romans 9 and other passages of scripture. The Church has never officially accepted this interpretation of Romans 9. The Church has never officially taught that the “elect” of God is equivalent to the Banezianism/Thomism’s “principle of predilection.” This principle essentially means that out of the entire human race God bestows efficacious grace to save some men in order to manifest His mercy and only sufficient grace on all others to manifest His justice. For the end result of sufficient grace only is sin. Now I’m not criticizing St Thomas for saying that God saves some in order to manifest His mercy and all others he delivers over to eternal punishment to manifest His justice. For in one sense, this is true. For there is infinite mercy and justice in God. But, as Aquinas says, predestination to glory and reprobation to hell are understood differently. For reprobation is due to foreseen demerits. Aquinas was also working under a “principle of predilection” which he inherited from St Augustine’s interpretation of Romans 9. Biblical scholars and exegetes today say that St Paul was not writing about the predestination of souls to heaven or hell in Romans 9 but the election of Israel to be the chosen people of God. St Paul says that this election was not based on works but was a free gift from God such as grace is a free gift from God.

Nobody denies that God can infallibly move man by an efficacious grace without violating his freedom. However, arguing from St Thomas Aquinas, Fr Most points out that this is not the ordinary providence of God but an extraordinary providence such as St Paul’s conversion.

Nobody denies that God is the First Cause of our salvation. For God’s grace always precedes our good works with us cooperating with that grace.

In our understanding of the Church’s doctrine on predestination, I think we should look too what the Church officially teaches. The Banezianism/Thomism “principle of predilection” is not an official doctrine of the Church and indeed may not be true at all.

We can summarize the Church’s official teaching from the CCC’s following texts:

CCC#239: By calling God “Father”, the language of faith indicates two main things: that God is the first origin of everything and transcendent authority; and that he is at the same time goodness and loving care for all his children. God’s parental tenderness can also be expressed by the image of motherhood."

CCC#74: God “desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth” (1 Timothy 2:4)

St Paul also says that “But the gift is not like the transgression. For if by that one person’s transgression the many died, how much more did the grace of God and the gracious gift of the one person Jesus Christ overflow for the many…The law entered in so that transgression might increase but, where sin increased, grace overflowed all the more” (Romans 5: 15,20).

CCC#605: "At the end of the parable of the lost sheep Jesus recalled that God’s love excludes no one: “So it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish.” He affirms that he came “to give his life as a ransom for many”; this last term is not restrictive, but contrasts the whole of humanity with the unique person of the redeemer who hands himself over to save us. The Church, following the apostles, teaches that Christ died for all men without exception: “There is not, never has been, and never will be a single human being for whom Christ did not suffer.”

continuation on next post

 

[Richca]

I hope this is in the correct forum. Anyway, predestination is one of the doctrines of the Church that really gives me pause, because I really don’t know exactly what it is. I was reading the book of Wisdom, and 3:9 says, “[God’s] care is with the elect”. This sparked my interest, so I was wondering if any of you wise men of CAF could explain to me what the Church teaches on this. As I understand it, there is an elect, to whom God gives efficacious grace, so that they 100% will definitely be saved. But to all others, He gives sufficient grace, so that they might be saved, if they choose to accept this grace. I also understand that is a sin to believe that one knows whether or not one is an elect. So, to sum up my understanding:
Worst case scenario: only the elect are saved.
Best case scenario: all are saved.

Please tell me whether or not this soteriology is correct and, if it is contrary to Church teaching, please instruct me on what is correct. Thank you all in advance!

(continued)

CCC#1730: God created man a rational being, conferring on him the dignity of a person who can initiate and control his own actions. “God willed that man should be ‘left in the hand of his own counsel,’ so that he might of his own accord seek his Creator and freely attain his full and blessed perfection by cleaving to him.”
Man is rational and therefore like God; he is created with free will and is master over his acts.

CCC#1987: The grace of the Holy Spirit has the power to justify us, that is, to cleanse us from our sins and to communicate to us “the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ” and through Baptism."

CCC#2002 : “God’s free initiative demands man’s free response.”

CCC#1993: “When God touches man’s heart through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, man himself is not inactive while receiving that inspiration, since he could reject it; and yet, without God’s grace, he cannot by his own free will move himself toward justice in God’s sight.”

CCC#1037: God predestines no one to go to hell; for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end."

CCC#600: “When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of “predestination”, he includes in it each person’s** free **response to his grace”

Fr Most’s book " Grace, Predestination, and the Salvific Will of God," is consistent with the foregoing teaching of the CCC. He takes from St Thomas Aquinas the main thesis of the work:
“And since this ability to impede or not impede the reception of divine grace is within the scope of free choice, not undeservedly is responsibility for the fault imputed to him who offers an impediment to the reception of grace. In fact, as far as He is concerned, God is ready to give grace to all; indeed “he wills all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth” (1 Tim 2:4). But those alone are deprived of grace who offer an obstacle within themselves to grace.” (Summa Contra Gentiles, Book 3, Chapter 159). He also argues that the above text from Aquinas is not contradictory to Aquinas’ own metaphysical principles.

It is not my intention here to criticize the persons who expounded the theological systems that developed in the Church over the doctrine of predestination. As Fr Most says, the Church has benefited from the cumulative light that the Holy Spirit has sent upon the Church throughout so many centuries and thus teaches many truths more clearly now such as the universal salvific will of God. Our understanding of Holy Scripture has also benefited from biblical scholarship.

blessings and peace, Richca

 

[Lion_Heart]

I’m having a little trouble following your train of thought, but the term “double predestination” usually refers to the idea of predestination to heaven and to hell, and this idea the Catholic Church rejects. Certainly you can fine-tune your approach to predestination so that you could distinguish different forms, but that does not make it double predestination in the way the term is virtually always used.

If we must speak of predestination to grace, then all of us have it, the elect and the reprobate. All of us are given sufficient grace for salvation, and so you could say we were “predestined” to receive this. But this “predestination to grace” (I do not know if this is the sense in which John Salza used the term) is in no way a predictor of final salvation one way or the other. Final salvation relies upon sufficient grace being made efficacious by God, so that we freely cooperate with it, and furthermore it requires that the gift of final perseverance be efficaciously granted so that we may remain in the state of grace at the hour of death.

Greetings in Christ, Aelred Minor

I believe: In order to understand predestination it is very useful to understand some key terms relating to predestination such as:

1. GOD’S GREAT AND SPECIAL GIFT OF FINAL PERSEVERANCE

A Tiptoe Through TULIP by James Akin
Quote: Trent’s Decree of Justification, canon 16, speaks of “THAT GREAT AND SPECIAL GIFT OF FINAL PERSEVERANCE,” and chapter 13 of the decree speaks of “the gift of perseverance of which it is written: ‘He who perseveres to the end shall be saved [Matt. 10:22, 24:13],’ WHICH CANNOT BE OBTAINED FROM ANYONE EXCEPT FROM HIM WHO IS ABLE TO MAKE HIM WHO STANDS TO STAND [Rom. 14:4].” End quote (Emphasize mine)

2 Tim.4:18 “And the Lord will deliver me from every evil work and preserve me for His heavenly kingdom. …” Also proves the above doctrine of “GOD’S GREAT AND SPECIAL GIFT OF FINAL PRSEVERANCE.”

ARE ALL TRUE CHRISTIANS PREDESTINED TO PERSEVERE? by James Akin
Quote: St. Thomas Aquinas, In his Summa Theologiae he wrote: [P]erseverance is called he abiding in good to the end of life. And in order to have this perseverance man . . . NEEDS the divine assistance GUIDING him and GUARDING him against the attacks of the passions . . . And hence after anyone has been JUSTIFIED BY GRACE, he still needs to beseech God for the aforesaid GIFT OF PERSEVERANCE, that he may be kept from evil till the end of his life. For to many GRACE is GIVEN to whom PERSEVERANCE IN GRACE IS NOT GIVEN. (ST IIa:109:10)

This same teaching was infallibly taught by the Council of Trent after the Protestant Reformation. End quote. (Emphasize mine.)

KEY THEOLOGICAL FACTS IN THE ABOVE QUOTES:

a. NO ONE can be saved without God’s GREAT AND SPECIAL GIFT OF FINAL PERSEVERANCE.

b. God predestines NO ONE to hell.

c. This third KEY theological fact comes from the other two:
God never ever predestines anyone without THE PROTECTION of His GREAT AND SPECIAL GIFT OF FINAL PERSEVERANCE, because without this gift the DESTINATION of His predestination would be hell.

d. God’s desire is for everyone saved. So God provides ENOUGH grace for EVERYONE to be able to make a FREE decision between to be saved or to be a reprobate (unsaved).

e. Those who accept God’s grace and His free gift of salvation are predestined by God with His GIFT OF FINAL PERSEVERANCE.

f. Those who reject God’s grace and His free gift of salvation they are lost by their own choice.

g. The condition of God’s predestination and His gift of final perseverance is the acceptance of His grace.

h. Every saved person in the world are predestined by God with His gift of final perseverance.

j. The names of the reprobates are not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world. – Rev.13:8; Rev.17:8.
Logically we could conclude, as God’s will is to save everyone, their name was written in the book of life, but God cancelled it by His foreknowledge of their rejection of His grace.

k. From the above theological facts, it is also logical to conclude: Every saved person in the world are predestined by God for salvation with the protection of His GREAT AND SPECIAL GIFT OF FINAL PERSEVERANCE.

1. GOD’S WILL IN GENERAL

a. The Will by which God DESIRES what will happen.
b. The Will by which God DECREES what will happen.

For the fulfillment of God’s DESIRED will, God NEEDS man’s cooperation. The fulfillment SOLELY depends on men’s will.
For example: God’s DESIRE is not to kill. The fulfillment SOLELY depends on men’s will.

For the fulfillment of God’s DECREED will, God MAKES man to cooperate. The fulfillment SOLELY depends on God’s GECREED will.

For example:
When Christ comes back the second time with His angels (Matt.24:29-31) and with all His saints (Zech.14:4-5; Jude 14-15; Matt.19:27-28), He will take over Satan’s kingdom and will be a literal kingdom on this earth. – Rev.11:15
Christ will rule in His kingdom with His saints (Daniel 7:13-14, 21-22, 26-27; 1 Pet.2:9; Rev.20:5). This kingdom is an EVERLASTING kingdom and will NEVER end (Daniel 2:44; Daniel 7:14, 27).

The fulfillment of the above prophecies are God’s DECREED will.
The fulfillment SOLELY depends on God’s DECREED WILL.

Continued on the next post.

 

[Lion_Heart]

Continuation.

1. THE SALFIVIC WILL OF GOD
   God’s universal salfivic will is to save all mankind. (1 Tim.2:4)

PREDESTINATION

Scripture Catholic by John Salza. (Catholic Apologetics)
III. Predestination and the “Elect”
Quote: “There are two types of predestination, TWO GRACE and TWO GLORY. … Predestination is either to grace (which we could lose) or to glory (which we cannot lose). … 1 Tim.2:6 – Jesus Christ gave Himself as a ransom for all (not just for the elect). But only those predestined to glory will be saved.” End quote. (Emphasize mine.)

The above two types of predestinations taught by St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas as well and present Catholic apologetics also teach them.

PREDESTINATION TO GRACE
If we think in two dimensions: Heaven and hell, then all those whom God has predestined to grace end up in hell as Salza teaches it and correctly so.

But if we think in three dimensions, as the Church fathers thought and as according to the Bible prophecies, the eternal future of the human race is in three dimensions: Heaven, God’s Kingdom on earth and hell, then the outcome of the predestination to grace is everlasting life, not in hell but in the Kingdom of God on earth.

PREDESTINATION TO GRACE (ACCORDING TO THE THREE DIMENSIONAL VIEW)

1. This is a GENERAL predestination, EVERYONE is invited to be predestined and to be saved, who are not predestined to glory/heaven.
2. The DESTINATION of this election is the Kingdom of God on earth.
3. God’s DESIRED will is to predestine and to save everyone.
4. This is a CONDITIONAL election.
5. The predestination and the salvation of the elects, and those who are chosen to be reprobates by rejecting God’s grace is 100% the elects or the reprobates choice.
   It is up to every individual to accept God’s grace or reject it or accept it for a while and then reject it, but in this case, their names never were among the predestined.
6. God provides every kind of grace to ENABLE all persons to freely choose between life and death. – Deut.30:19-20. The same principle applies to all nations.
   God’s DESIRED will is to predestine and to save all other people as well (whom He has not predestined to glory/heaven) by predestine to God’s Kingdom on earth.
7. The elects CANNOT lose their salvation because their salvation is protected by God’s GREAT AND SPECIAL GIFT OF FINAL PERSEVERANCE.
8. The names of the elects, and their full number is completed before the creation of the world.

PREDESTINATION TO GLORY/HEAVEN

1. This is an EXCLUSIVE election.

John 6:44 … NO ONE can come to Me unless the Father DRAWS him.
John 6:65 I have said to you that NO ONE can come to Me unless it has been GRANTED to him by My Father.
John 15:16 … You DID NOT choose Me, but I CHOSE YOU …

1. The DESTINATION of this election and predestination is heaven.
2. God has predestined the elects according to His DECREED will.
3. This is an UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION. His election based on His ETERNAL DECREE ACCORDING TO HIS PURPOSE.
4. The predestination and the salvation of the elects is 100% God’s choice.
5. God provides the predestined efficacious grace.
6. The elects CANNOT lose their salvation because their salvation is protected by God’s GREAT AND SPECIAL GIFT OF FINAL PERSEVERANCE.
7. The names of the elect, and their full number is completed before the creation of the world.

THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE PREDESTINATION TO GLORY AND TO GRACE:

Predestination to GLORY. ……………. Predestination to GRACE.

1. EXCLUSIVE election. ……………… GENERAL election.
2. Destination: HEAVEN. ……………… GOD’S KINGDOM on earth.
3. God’s DECREED will. ……………… God’s DESIRED will.
4. UNCONDITIONAL election. ….…… CONDITIONAL election.
5. 100% GOD’S choice. ……………… 100% ELECTS choice.
6. EFFICACIOUS grace. ……………… ALL grace which need to make a free choice.

Predestination to grace is to hell, or into the Kingdom of God on earth DEPENDS on what Christ will do when He comes back the second time with His angels (Matt.24:29-31) and with all His saints (Zech.14:4-5; Jude 14-15; Matt.19:27-28), and takes over Satan’s kingdom and will be a literal kingdom on this earth. – Rev.11:15

According to the WORD OF GOD, after Christ will comes back the second time He will takes over the Kingdom (Rev.11:15; Dan.7:13-14, then Christ with His saints takes over the ruler-ship of the Kingdom (Dan.7:21-22, 26-27).

The LIFE IN THE KINGDOM OF GOD is described in Isaiah 11:6-9; Isaiah 51:3; Isaiah 52:9-10; Isaiah 65:20-25; Zechariah 8:3-8, etc.

When we think in THREE DIMENSIONS like the Church fathers did, and as the Bible describes the eternity of the people in the THREE DIMENSIONS: Heaven, God’s Kingdom on earth, and hell then we will KNOW, the destination of the PREDESTINATION TO GRACE is not hell but GOD’S KINGDOM ON EARTH.

The two dimensional thinking is totally and unambiguously crushed by the weight of biblical evidence.

God wants to save everyone, He provides all necessary grace for everyone (reprobates included) to FREELY be able to choose between life and death.

God’s offer in Deut.30:19-20 without the provision of ALL NECESSARY GRACE needed to freely choose between LIFE and DEATH, and without God’s “GREAT AND SPECIAL GIFT OF FINAL PERSEVERANCE,” could not be a valid offer.

Aelred I would like to have your view about this post.
I also would like to have the view of the readers.
Thanks you all in advance!

With love in Christ,
LH

 

[Isaiah45_9]

I knew that. I was being a bit facetious, and making the point that I’m just another dude on the Internet (well, a dude with a Ph.D., admittedly, but certainly not the Magisterium or even, as yet, in full communion with the Catholic Church).

Edwin

You rang?