Catholic predestination?

[simspt]

This is a huge, and hugely complex, topic. It can be debated, but not properly elucidated, in the context of short forum posts - it demands a book-length study at the very minimum, and, ideally, many book-length studies. In the end, our mortal minds can not comprehend the predestinating and fore-ordaining decree of God, except insofar as he has revealed it to us (“some are predestinated, some are not, and never the twain shall meet”) in his revelation, the Bible.

I recommend the book Predestination by Dominican Father Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange, OP for the traditional Roman Thomistic view on predestination, and the book Iustitia Dei (it’s in English) by Alister McGrath for a good historical theological overview of the doctrine of justification, which is inextricably bound up with the question of predestination.

Thomas Aquinas also wrote some decent articles in the Summa theologiae on these matters (search newadvent.org which has an online copy of the ST), as does John of Damascus in his De fide orthodoxa (“On the Orthodox Faith”, more accurately, “An Exact Exposition of the Orthodox Faith”, from the original Greek title), in the section where he speaks of the division between the antecedent and consequent wills of God. (To fully understand this difference, John of Damascus himself gives you the tools in his Philosophical Chapters, which, together with the Exact Exposition and his On Heresies, make up the work entitled Fount of Knowledge, available several places online in old translation, but ideally available in Vol. 37 of Fathers of the Church, a scan of which of which I am uploading to Scribd in .pdf, which is here: scribd.com/doc/179134666/St-John-of-Damascus-The-Fount-of-Knowledge-FoC-37

Great recommendations, thanks!

 

[PeaceInChrist]

I subscribe more to St. Francis de Sales than other theologians on this matter. However, I ultimately realize that the sovereign will of God, His desire for all to be saved, Man’s free will, and the nature of grace, all exist together mysteriously in a way that cannot be fully comprehended. I’ve met very vehement Thomists that proclaim a negative damnation, bordering on Calvinism, and that God does not give grace to all, as though it were dogmatic. In reality, they have a theory, as do Molinists.

Some are content with Mysteries. Some have to explain everything to the minutest detail, even if the Church has not deemed it necessary. I fall into the former category.

 

[Oren]

This stuff bothers me. If we aren’t ‘really’ pre destined, what’s the point of using the term?? Ok, God knows and we don’t…except for the Saints that is. So what? God must have told us for a reason. It must be a real thing that at least some are definitely pre destined and it must be relevant to us since it is talked about in Scripture. The Blessed Mother is a good example. She was given more grace than the rest of us for sure. She was pre destined for sure. Same for John the Baptist. He was given more grace since he was sanctified in the womb. He was predestined for sure. There are many other examples.

So, we know that depending on the ‘role’ of the person in salvation history up til the end of the world, in general, some people are given way more grace than us regular people. I don’t know all the theological background, and that’s probably obvious, but this is the only way I can see that predestination has any meaning for us and not just saying, ‘well God, knows, oh well, let’s not think about it anymore’ or ‘well, God gives everyone grace’ thus taking all meaning out of the term.

We can’t deny that God wills everyone to be saved since that’s what it says in the Bible, but at the same time, I don’t think we can deny that certain people are predestined for sure to be saved and others, the vast majority, are not predestined ‘for sure’ to be saved but are only given enough to be saved if they work really, really hard at it. (not saying that those who are predestined don’t work hard as well, but let’s face it, if you are immaculately conceived or sanctified in the womb, or never commit a mortal sin in your life due to being raised by saintly parents etc, you have it way easier!) This can be seen in a more frequent way even by who God chooses to be born into a Catholic family to be baptized as infants, who has a good Catholic education as children, and on and on. We can see with our own eyes that some are given more grace than others, at least to a certain extent.

**Of course, I’m open to correction since I am pretty ignorant of the topic in general. ** I’m just trying to reason it out from my reading of the Bible and the Saints but I could be way off.