Catholic Press in Fear

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Pope Leo XIII: “Nothing truly can be more salutary or efficacious for Christian families to meditate upon than the example of this Holy Family, which embraces the perfection and completeness of all domestic virtues.”
If so, then where in Scripture is any expansion of the Holy Family as an example of all domestic virtues? To me, what the Holy Family did in obedience to God is well-documented in Scripture. But, we have almost no knowledge of their domestic life. How can they exemplify domestic virtue if no one knows how they lived except to say that they lived the lives of virtuous, hardworking, observant lower-class Jews? And they are not unique in these qualities.
The Holy Family models for us what family life should exemplify.
And these examples are?
It is a school of virtue for both parents and children. There we find God, and learn how to connect with God and with others. The family is where love is freely given without self-interest. It is where we learn to love, to pray and to practice the gift of charity.
Can this be said about any of us as Catholic husbands, wives, parents, teachers of our children? Yes, it can be. So many of us belong to this school of virtue.
I can’t see why you would minimize the holy Family. For centuries the Church has said they are the ideal for family life. Do you know of a better example?
How are they the ideal if we don’t know what their domestic life was like? They are an ideal of obedience. That is without doubt.
 
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Richardols:
If so, then where in Scripture is any expansion of the Holy Family as an example of all domestic virtues? To me, what the Holy Family did in obedience to God is well-documented in Scripture. But, we have almost no knowledge of their domestic life. How can they exemplify domestic virtue if no one knows how they lived except to say that they lived the lives of virtuous, hardworking, observant lower-class Jews? And they are not unique in these qualities.
Two out of three of the Holy Family were without sin. Seems like a pretty good model to me.
 
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buffalo:
Two out of three of the Holy Family were without sin. Seems like a pretty good model to me.
Agreed. They certainly are. But that goes to their holiness and obedience to God, of which there is no doubt whatsoever, not to the perfection of their domestic life.
 
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Richardols:
If so, then where in Scripture is any expansion of the Holy Family as an example of all domestic virtues? To me, what the Holy Family did in obedience to God is well-documented in Scripture. But, we have almost no knowledge of their domestic life. How can they exemplify domestic virtue if no one knows how they lived except to say that they lived the lives of virtuous, hardworking, observant lower-class Jews? And they are not unique in these qualities.
Others may be virtuous, but not in the same degree as the Holy Family.
And these examples are?
The home of Nazareth is the school where we begin to understand the life of Jesus—the school of the Gospel. First, then, a lesson of silence. May esteem for silence, that admirable and indispensable condition of mind, revive in us…A lesson on family life. May Nazareth teach us what family life is, its communion of love, its austere and simple beauty, and its sacred and inviolable character…A lesson of work. Nazareth, home of the Carpenter’s Son," in you I would choose to understand and proclaim the severe and redeeming law of human work. — Paul VI at Nazareth, January 5, 1964
Can this be said about any of us as Catholic husbands, wives, parents, teachers of our children? Yes, it can be. So many of us belong to this school of virtue.
Sure, but I do not equate myself with the Holy Family. That would be arrogant and presumption.
 
The Holy Family as models of domestic virtue, as models of family life, in Catholic tradition.

catholicculture.org/lit/overviews/months/02_1.cfm

catholic.net/rcc/Periodicals/Faith/JAN-FEB99/Families.html

pddm.us/Adoration-YearA/Adoration5_YearA.htm

laymc.bizland.com/Society_Feast_Novena.htm

ewtn.com/library/SPIRIT/JOEROLE.TXT

livingcitymagazine.com/livingcity/05_04/NazarethModel_print.htm

Just for starters. . . Of course, we don’t limit ourselves to Scripture alone, but see in the articles posted the Scriptural bases, both New and Old Testament, as well as Sacred Tradition.
 
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Richardols:
Agreed. They certainly are. But that goes to their holiness and obedience to God, of which there is no doubt whatsoever, not to the perfection of their domestic life.
Being sinless surely is related to the perfection of their domestic life.
 
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Others may be virtuous, but not in the same degree as the Holy Family.
How can a comparison be made if there is nothing in Scripture that sets us the ideal example?
The home of Nazareth is the school where we begin to understand the life of Jesus—the school of the Gospel. First, then, a lesson of silence. May esteem for silence, that admirable and indispensable condition of mind, revive in us…A lesson on family life. May Nazareth teach us what family life is, its communion of love, its austere and simple beauty, and its sacred and inviolable character…A lesson of work. Nazareth, home of the Carpenter’s Son," in you I would choose to understand and proclaim the severe and redeeming law of human work. — Paul VI at Nazareth, January 5, 1964
Very nice, but nothing concerete about their domestic life.
Sure, but I do not equate myself with the Holy Family. That would be arrogant and presumption.
Yes, arrogant and presumptuous if we are speaking of their holiness and obedience to God. But, not arrogant if we are comparing domestic lives.
 
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buffalo:
Being sinless surely is related to the perfection of their domestic life.
As you said, two out of three are a good model. But, we know so little about their domestic life.
 
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Richardols:
How can a comparison be made if there is nothing in Scripture that sets us the ideal example?

Very nice, but nothing concerete about their domestic life.

Yes, arrogant and presumptuous if we are speaking of their holiness and obedience to God. But, not arrogant if we are comparing domestic lives.
I really can’t see your logic. The Holy Family is a model of obedience and virtue. What are you looking for? The best way to wash your mule or how to set the table for dinner?
 
Tantum ergo:
The Holy Family as models of domestic virtue, as models of family life, in Catholic tradition.
In law, we say that we’d trade a thousand arguments for one case on point.

Your examples are fine generalizations, but there’s not a case on point in there.

I don’t argue with their virtue. As Buffalo pointed out, two of the three were without sin, one being the very Son of God. But, as examples of domestic family life, is it enough to say, “Well, He is God and His Mother is free from sin, so their domestic life must be perfect”? For some people, that would be enough, but I wish there was something to point to, more related to actual domestic family life than to rely on His Divinity and Her Immaculate Conception to make a default argument.
 
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The Holy Family is a model of obedience and virtue.
There’s no argument about that.
What are you looking for? The best way to wash your mule or how to set the table for dinner?
They are the model for obedience and virtue.

They are also held up as the model for domestic family life. I’d love to see some substantiation of what they did as a pious, observant, hard-working Jewish family that made them the models of domestic life besides relying on His divinity and her sinlessness.
 
Can you really honestly think of a better mother than Mary, a father than Joseph, and a child than Jesus? Really? Can you think of a more loving family group than the woman who said “yes” to God, the virgin who bore the Son of God and raised Him to be the most holy human male ever–the man who, thinking his betrothed unfaithful, was unwilling to see her stoned or shamed, who unhestitatingly obeyed God’s messages to him, who selflessly loved and protected his wife and raised his son to be the most holy human male ever–these three “everyday”, humble, POOR people who were so “ordinary” that they experienced hunger, thirst, homelessness, scandal, loss, pain, grief, misunderstandings. . .and yet lived lives of perfect faith, hope, and love?

Gee, I would really like to know just what “family” is a better candidate for the model of a holy family than this one. . .
 
Tantum ergo:
Can you think of a more loving family group than the woman who said “yes” to God, the virgin who bore the Son of God and raised Him to be the most holy human male ever–the man who, thinking his betrothed unfaithful, was unwilling to see her stoned or shamed, who unhestitatingly obeyed God’s messages to him, who selflessly loved and protected his wife and raised his son to be the most holy human male ever–these three “everyday”, humble, POOR people who were so “ordinary” that they experienced hunger, thirst, homelessness, scandal, loss, pain, grief, misunderstandings. . .and yet lived lives of perfect faith, hope, and love?
Absolutely not. There is no question whatever of the Holy Family as the prime example of obedience and submission to the will of God.
Gee, I would really like to know just what “family” is a better candidate for the model of a holy family than this one. . .
As a model of ideal domestic family life, I’d love to see a few examples of how the Holy Family excelled other than with the argument that, “well, they’d have to be, given that Jesus is God.”

Let me give you an example. You know about the Good Samaritan. Scripture documents that man’s virtue regarding obligations to one’s neighbor. Wouldn’t it be great to have some anecdotal evidence of the ideal family life virtues of the Holy Family?
 
I don’t think that we need to have, say, examples of how Jesus cleaned his room without being told, how Mary gave the local women tips on being a “total woman”, or how Joseph outlined a 12 step plan to being a better dad.

I think that we already have plenty of evidence of the Holy Family demonstrating ideal family life virtues.

When Joseph had to go to the census, Mary, though far along in the pregnancy, went with him. Shows that they thought of themselves as a couple, even a “family” with the impending birth of a child. Though they wound up in a stable, Mary was prepared with the swaddling clothes. . .obviously, made by her or her family. Shows domestic capability even under less than “ideal”-- even downright awful–conditions. When shepherds and wise men came to see the baby, both Joseph and Mary acted with great courtesy and hospitality, again, under less than “ideal” situations. . .temporarily in a shelter not even their own. How many people can accept help gracefully, and not whine or complain or otherwise try to puff themselves up, instead of surrendering humbly and thinking more of others?

When Herod was searching for the child to kill him, the Lord sent Joseph to Egypt for at least a couple of years (they returned after the death of Herod). Here’s a refugee poor family with an infant traveling to a foreign country and managing to make a decent living and bring a child through the first few years of life–historically speaking, the most dangerous years for a child. What was childhood mortality at that time, especially for the poor or displaced–at least 50%–but we know from Scripture that Jesus grew and “throve”. . .a child cannot take care of himself, so that “thriving” was because of the work of his parents.

When the family returned to Nazareth Joseph went back to work as a carpenter. Jesus was “the carpenter’s son”. Carpentry was a good trade, a carpenter was a respected craftsman. Certainly Joseph modeled a good “work ethic” to his son.

As far as the “only child”. . .we know that Mary had sisters, and that those sisters had children, cousins of Jesus, both older and younger. Jesus had plenty of playmates. We know that his kinspeople later “worried” about him, as his ministry took off. It is as likely that they worried because the “fame” looked OUT OF CHARACTER to Jesus, who while intelligent enough to astound learned doctors of religion when he was only 12, was yet MODEST enough not to parade around town demonstrating it. This young man, living with his hardworking father and humble, spiritual, but capable mother (remember who wove Jesus’s robe SEAMLESSLY, so that when He was crucified the soldiers didn’t want to tear it, but to throw dice so one lucky man could WEAR it–yep, the weaver was Mary), surrounded by family and friends (one of whom later invited him to that wedding in Cana), living a modest life. . .well, 30 years of obscurity in a little village probably SHOULDN’T have produced a man who proceeded to electrify the world with messages that sounded, well, divine. His actions shouldn’t have been so. . .so controversial yet so right and true. And yet–all that quiet, peaceful, normal, obedient, God-centered, humble life was really the preparation, the background, the FOUNDATION of Jesus’s ministry. He was thoroughly human and He had a thoroughly normal, ordinary human life. . .but because of the character of his parents AND their actions in raising Him, He is an example of perfect childhood, youth, and maturity.

Even when Jesus was left in Jerusalem, and His parents searched for Him, did you notice how Mary and Joseph reacted? When they found Jesus, did they scream and berate Him? Mary said, “Son, why have you done this? Your father and I have been searching for you in sorrow?” She ASKS Him WHY He did what He did, instead of criticizing HIM, or second-guessing Him. She trusted that He had a REASON, that He will GIVE a reason. And He does, “Why were you searching? Did you not know that I would be about My Father’s business?” Mary and Joseph do not UNDERSTAND the reason thoroughly, but they ACCEPT the reason with absolutely no hesitation and He went right back to Nazareth with them, obeying them, and advancing “in wisdom, grace and favor with God and men”.

Oh, we have plenty of evidence. We have to dig a little deeper perhaps, contemplate, work “forwards and backwards” by noting Jesus’s character in His ministry, the way that the apostles acted toward His mother and other family members (always to His mom with reverence, to family members with love even when the family members disagreed or misunderstood). We see that one of Jesus’s last actions was to arrange to have His Mother protected and cared for by “the disciple whom He loved”. . .a last loving action from a very loving Son, a last example of filial piety. . .a last example from the God/Man who lived, with His family, according to God’s commandments, ALL the commandments.
 
Tantum ergo:
I think that we already have plenty of evidence of the Holy Family demonstrating ideal family life virtues.

quiet, peaceful, normal, obedient, God-centered, humble life
All that you’ve said could apply as well to other Jewish families of the period leading quiet, peaceful, normal, obedient, God-centered, humble lives.

There’s just nothing unique about all that you’ve given as examples.

I guess we’ll have to stay in disagreement on this one, Tantum. I see them as perfect examples of obedience to God’s will, and I see evidence of them as a good Jewish family, but nothing of their being perfect examples of domestic family life. It’s just not in the record.
 
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Richardols:
All that you’ve said could apply as well to other Jewish families of the period leading quiet, peaceful, normal, obedient, God-centered, humble lives.

There’s just nothing unique about all that you’ve given as examples.

I guess we’ll have to stay in disagreement on this one, Tantum. I see them as perfect examples of obedience to God’s will, and I see evidence of them as a good Jewish family, but nothing of their being perfect examples of domestic family life. It’s just not in the record.
I think post #35 laid out the argument very well. While other families may be virtuous, none of them can approach the level of the holy Family. They are the model. Which family has a sinless Mother, a son who is God and a father Joseph who was obedient and patient. Can you give one example that is superior to this family? They are models for all areas of family life. That we do not have a book with specific day to day examples with pictures does not mean they are not the example, it only means we have limited our understanding.
 
Gabriel Gale said:
** And at Boston College, the school’s president was asked at a faculty lunch to explain whether the ability of professors to question teachings of the Roman Catholic Church is now under threat at the Jesuit university.**

This part struck me as very odd and I think it shows what has gone so terribly wrong with our higher education system.

It is not the place for a college professor to question, it is their place to teach.
 
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IWhile other families may be virtuous, none of them can approach the level of the holy Family.
Why not?
Which family has a sinless Mother, a son who is God and a father Joseph who was obedient and patient.
Falling back on the argument that because Jesus was God and Mary was sinless, they had to be perfect, are you? That’s no proof.
Can you give one example that is superior to this family?
I don’t have to find someone superior, you have to show that they are superior.
They are models for all areas of family life. That we do not have a book with specific day to day examples with pictures does not mean they are not the example, it only means we have limited our understanding.
Correct, it doesn’t mean that they aren’t such, but the lack of examples doesn’t mean that they are. Arguing in the negative is a very weak way to do it.
 
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Richardols:
Why not?

Falling back on the argument that because Jesus was God and Mary was sinless, they had to be perfect, are you? That’s no proof.

I don’t have to find someone superior, you have to show that they are superior.

Correct, it doesn’t mean that they aren’t such, but the lack of examples doesn’t mean that they are. Arguing in the negative is a very weak way to do it.
Do you not think it is a bit disingenuous to argue that God and His mother are not the family ideal? Throughout the ages the Church as given us much to ponder about and strive for using them as the example.

Your argument seems to be that we do not have a video of their daily activities and that axiomatically excludes them from the “top” spot.

The Church has given proof that they are the ideal, you need to show why that proof is not to your standards. Their lives may be hidden to some degree, but that does not mean they are not the ideal it means you need to change your understanding of how to view the Holy Family.
 
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