Catholic priest’s traditionalist changes face resistance from progressive parish in Cincinnati, Ohio. Media report,

[Tis_Bearself]

Thanks for that insight. I wasn’t sure what was going on. I have seen in past decades some inner-city parishes that got involved in serving the local black community and in so doing started drawing a lot of wealthy white people from the suburbs who were eager to join in the effort, and might go down some path like incorporating African dances and drums despite the parish being 80 or 90 percent white. But in this case it seems like it is the local demographics that actually live in the area, and not doctors and lawyers driving in from a distant 'burb just to be part of a social justice parish.

 

[pnewton]

I have a little more time to elaborate. What is being changed is nothing but practices, things which can change, or cannot. There is not an issue of right or wrong, at least based on what the bishop has said, who supports both the new priest, and the previous one. Compromise is not only possible, but pastoral, at least in some cases. There is no reason to call the anyone here heterodox. This situation is not a theological misunderstanding.

We are a sick society. I do not know how anyone can deny this. We are ill and suffering from a divisiveness that we cannot escape. At least as individuals we need to get past looking at every single issue in from the human point of view, to think not as the world, but as God thinks, to whom every soul is sacred. God so loved the world, that he sent his only begotten son, leaving behind all the trappings of his glory to reach people in the lowest places. Mass is the Holy Sacrifice and worthy of the greatest splendor, and at the same time where God is at His humblest and willing to meet people in the lowliest of manners. We need to stop acting like we are more “sacred” than God, or more pastoral. We darn sure need to leave our politics at the altar.

I apologize if my shorter comments seemed offensive.

 

[Vico]

Vico:

Do you mean this from the GIRM?

kneel …from after the Holy, Holy, Holy until the end of the Great Amen (e.g., during the Eucharistic
Prayer),14 unless the church has no kneelers,15 in which case, the faithful stand,16 and make a profound bow when the celebrant genuflects17

14 GIRM, 43
15 “The furnishings of sacred buildings have some relation to the customs of each place. For example, …at Rome in the basilicas in our days there are more often benches which lack kneelers and therefore can accommodate greater numbers. In cases in which it is not possible to kneel, a profound bow and dignified posture will be signs to manifest reverence and adoration at the time of the consecration and communion.” Notitiae 14 (1978): 302-303, n. 4.
16 In churches without kneelers, the faithful are asked to stand for the Eucharistic Prayer. GIRM, 43
17 “Those who do not kneel should make a profound bow when the [celebrant] genuflects after the Consecration.” GIRM, 43

Curious. Why did you substitute the wold ‘celebrant’ for the actual word in the instructions, ‘Priest’ ?

I don’t see any reason for that.

The GIRM 43 wording from the USCCB website has:

However, those who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow when the Priest genuflects after the Consecration.

I copied it from a summary made by the Diocese of Cleveland.

https://www.dioceseofcleveland.org/files/resources/cdcposturechartduringmasswdocumentation.pdf

 

[PeterT]

The GIRM 43 wording from the USCCB website has:

However, those who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow when the Priest genuflects after the Consecration.

So odd that the Diocese of Cleveland felt the need to substitute the word ‘celebrant’ for ‘Priest’. Priest makes it clear that the celebrant is a priest (and not a deacon or some other person). Celebrant is vague which might be why the G.I.R.M. states Priest and not celebrant.

 

[Anesti33]

Vico:

The GIRM 43 wording from the USCCB website has:

However, those who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow when the Priest genuflects after the Consecration.

So odd that the Diocese of Cleveland felt the need to substitute the word ‘celebrant’ for ‘Priest’. Priest makes it clear that the celebrant is a priest (and not a deacon or some other person). Celebrant is vague which might be why the G.I.R.M. states Priest and not celebrant.

The Latin IGMR uses sacerdos. The English word “priest” is inadequate to describe sacerdos which means “either a priest or bishop”.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

So odd that the Diocese of Cleveland felt the need to substitute the word ‘celebrant’ for ‘Priest’.

My guess is they were thinking in terms of “priest or bishop” so just said “celebrant” to capture both, since the document probably came from the bishop’s office.

 

[commenter]

The issues involved are not right and wrong. The same bishop that supports the new priest and these changes made that clear.

Maybe not exactly right or wrong, in the sense of sin, or validity of the Mass. But the issues could involve pastoral Prudence. If you have a congregation opposed to Catholic statues, I wonder what else they oppose, or are ignorant of.

I am tempted to insert my own prejudices here based on direct experience with other parishes, which may or may not be comparable.

This is one of those cases where it would really help to have a poster, preferably one whose posts (viewpoint) on other subjects I have read, who lives in that particular city.

That way we could get some history, some context, some important details omitted from the secular media.

I suppose it would be too much to ask Tisbearfield, Maximian, Georgias,
Pnewton, Vico, or someone similar to move to Cincinnati for a year then report back on a new thread.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Someone already posted in the thread noting that this area is apparently gentrifying, as did the other parish this priest is serving in the same area, and the priest is likely responding to the needs and wishes of the new people moving in, rather than these folks who were living there 20 years ago when the demographics were different.

I strongly doubt that all 200 families in the parish have the issues that this little cadre of older people who apparently have been running the Parish Council and everything else for years, have. If you just moved into a new parish, then you don’t have all this investment in the past processes that some person who’s 50 or 60 years old and considers it “their church” has. Also, we know that younger people are more likely to want something that looks more traditional - not necessarily in the sense of wanting the EF Mass with all the smells and bells, but at least in the sense of wanting some statues and not wanting odd things like standing all through the Mass or liturgical dance down the aisles. I’ve seen quite a few OF churches that used to look all “modern” and bare adding back things like the Mary statues and the candles and so forth and most people seem to like it.

 

[commenter]

I’ve seen quite a few OF churches that used to look all “modern” and bare adding back things like the Mary statues and the candles and so forth and most people seem to like it.

It’s not so much that individuals are getting more conserative, but most liberals have left altogether. In my diocese several LCWR convents have turned into nursing homes. A whole generation of 1960s and 70s liberals has retired from priesthood, with no like minded replacents. Young men with similar views went into politics, media, etc.

My cousins over 65 tend to dissent but still talk about parish and diocesan events. Their children don’t belong to any parish, couldn’t care less about the diocese.

The conservatives are the ones who still show up.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

As I said in my post, the younger people coming into the church have more appreciation of the conservative/ traditional elements. As we’ve discussed before on the forum, they don’t have bad memories of the pre-Vatican II church and consequently don’t see the need to change or update so many things.

The “old hippies” who were pushing a lot of the change are, as you mentioned, aging and dying out, if they didn’t already leave the Church altogether in response to not getting everything they wanted, whether that was married priests or women priests or liturgical dancers at Mass or making up their own gestures and prayers at Mass, or whatever. Hopefully the worst excesses will fade away with them.

 

[Ridgerunner]

move to Cincinnati for a year then report back on a new thread

My wife has relatives in Cincinnati. Nice city, but going to Mass there on visits has been discouraging. The sanctuary is crowded with auxiliaries of every kind, all women except for the priest. The priest is in the background somewhere or other. Tabernacle hidden somewhere. No statues. Weird corpus of Christ. Awful architecture. Totally “progressive” in every way. As I said, a beautiful city, and that’s just one parish (in the suburbs, of course) but it is definitely not to my liking.

 

[Gorgias]

But in this case it seems like it is the local demographics that actually live in the area, and not doctors and lawyers driving in from a distant 'burb just to be part of a social justice parish.

Except… that’s not what the article says, right? The one person whose location is mentioned is one of the parish council members who was dismissed, and one of the leaders of the “eulogy” newspaper ad. The article says:

Brogle, who drives across town from College Hill to attend St. Anthony’s, said she’s considered looking for a new parish, as some others have done.

So, at least part of the self-styled ‘leadership’ of the parish really are “driving in from a distant 'burb just to be part of” the parish…

My guess is they were thinking in terms of “priest or bishop” so just said “celebrant” to capture both

This!

I suppose it would be too much to ask Tisbearfield, Maximian, Georgias,
Pnewton, Vico, or someone similar to move to Cincinnati for a year then report back on a new thread.

Perhaps. Yet, this story is really ringing a bell with me. I could’ve sworn this exact parish came up in a news story – discussed here at CAF, if memory serves! – in which the situation between the new pastor and the parishioners made the local news. It was the same story – parish is ‘progressive’ and has somewhat unorthodox elements to their Masses, and the new pastor comes in and restores liturgical norms; the parish erupts with angst. As I recall, this was the one in which they got up during Mass and protested in the middle of Mass. (Maybe I’m remembering a different story, though?)

I have friends who had lived in Cincy, and that’s why the story caught my attention – both times.

I strongly doubt that all 200 families in the parish have the issues that this little cadre of older people who apparently have been running the Parish Council and everything else for years, have.

Again… this!

At its heart, this is really just a story of the transfer of control from one generation to the next. It can be a painful process, if the old guard doesn’t want to give up its grasp. It happened in the 60’s-70’s, and now the pendulum is swinging in the other direction.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Yet, this story is really ringing a bell with me. I could’ve sworn this exact parish came up in a news story – discussed here at CAF, if memory serves! – in which the situation between the new pastor and the parishioners made the local news. It was the same story – parish is ‘progressive’ and has somewhat unorthodox elements to their Masses, and the new pastor comes in and restores liturgical norms; the parish erupts with angst.

There’s been at least two of these stories in the last couple years. One was in Chicago and another was in Portland. It seems to be a recurring theme.

Here’s the latest on the Portland church, from last November, by the “Distorter”. Sounds like all the people who couldn’t “have it their way” formed their own “church” or quit altogether. I would presume that area of Portland now has much bigger problems than whether some aging progressive Catholics are allowed to put pictures of MLK in the sanctuary and run a soup kitchen or not.

At St. Francis of Assisi Parish in Portland, unity is elusive | National Catholic Reporter

 

[commenter]

From NCR article:
“Stevens and a few dozen others from St. Francis now meet regularly in an informal community, celebrating the Mass rites on their own, a lay-run service without a priest present. Others have moved on to neighboring Catholic parishes or have severed ties with organized faith entirely.”

I’ve seen this trend locally. I don’t know, but suspect, people have mostly lost the Catholic faith, but cling to “spirituality” or “community” or generalized Concern and Commitment. The individuals I know tend to reflect views of the media on everything.

Eventually a few join the Episcopal Church, or quit church altogether.
The Secular media reports on what a tragedy it is people leave the Catholic Church, ignoring the tragedy of leaving the Catholic Faith.

In the long run the best way we can love those people is not to say “believe what you want, we’re all inclusive here”, just keep coming.

Our local Evangelism programs focus exclusively on attracting people to the Church, not to the Faith, and fail miserably to lead them to either.

The loving thing to do is to affirm the truth in love so they have a solid place to return to when they are ready.

 

[Ridgerunner]

It’s not so much that individuals are getting more conserative, but most liberals have left altogether. In my diocese several LCWR convents have turned into nursing homes

Given the average age of LCWR this is not surprising. It will probably take a long time for them to be fully replaced by new and existing traditional orders. But orders like this give one reason for at least some optimism. Observe the apparent ages of these sisters. And look at their missions! Direct hands-on charitable work.

Homepage - Sisters of Life

 

[HomeschoolDad]

Take it up with the Diocese of Cleveland, I’d say.

Cleveland?

This is a story about Cincinnati, published in a Columbus newspaper. Three different places. Cincinnati and Cleveland are at the opposite ends of the state, and Columbus is in the middle. Ohio has six Latin Rite dioceses — besides these three, there is also Toledo, Youngstown, and the weirdly-shaped Diocese of Steubenville, which connects areas that have absolutely nothing in common with each other, aside from the fact that they mostly border the Ohio River. The bishop has to drive windy, two-lane roads to administer confirmation in places such as Ironton and Gallipolis. It would make much more sense to suppress this diocese and split its territory between Youngstown and Columbus.

I have some familiarity with this area. My dear parents were baptized in the Diocese of Steubenville.

 

[Gorgias]

Cleveland?

This is a story about Cincinnati, published in a Columbus newspaper. Three different places. Cincinnati and Cleveland are at the opposite ends of the state, and Columbus is in the middle.

Yes, I know my geography. Cincy and Cleveland are well-known to me (my beloved Steelers whip the tar out of them on a regular basis).

Nevertheless, the quotation is from a document from the diocese of Cleveland:

I copied it from a summary made by the Diocese of Cleveland.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

That chart about when people sit, stand etc is from the Diocese of Cleveland. I was born and raised there and can attest that the last couple bishops had a bit of a fixation with people’s Mass postures. Which I ignore in favor of using the same postures that I was taught as a child and continue to use in all dioceses where I spend time.

 

[Phillip_Rolfes]

I live in Cincinnati, although I don’t belong to the Archdiocese (I’m Maronite, so my bishop is out in St. Louis).

Having grown up in the area, I remember the Archdiocese when Archbishop Pilarczyk was the one in charge. “Progressive” parishes were the norm. Outside of Old St. Mary’s and St. Gertrude’s (which was/is Dominican-run), you’d be hard-pressed to find a parish that celebrated Mass according to the rubrics, had beautiful music and liturgical art, and was completely orthodox in its teaching. The local seminary was also a hotbed for progressivist theology.

Things have changed now. Archbishop Schnurr is a solid bishop who cares about preserving the orthodoxy of our Faith. He’s completely turned the seminary around, and young vocations to the priesthood are booming so much that they’ve had to build new dormitories.

Parishes in the area are getting newly ordained young priests who are passionate about preserving orthodoxy and tradition in line with what Vatican II, Pope St. John Paul II, and Pope Benedict XVI envisioned. It’s become quite an amazing place!

Incidentally, if anyone in this thread is ever in the area, I invite you to stop by St. Anthony of Padua Maronite Catholic Church for Divine Liturgy/Mass on Sundays at 10:30am. You’d be more than welcome! I’ll be the one toward the back juggling children.

 

[paperwight]

I’ll be the one toward the back juggling children.

Goodness, Maronite services are quite different to ours, then. They sound a lot more fun ,too: