Catholic priest’s traditionalist changes face resistance from progressive parish in Cincinnati, Ohio. Media report,

[HomeschoolDad]

That chart about when people sit, stand etc is from the Diocese of Cleveland. I was born and raised there and can attest that the last couple bishops had a bit of a fixation with people’s Mass postures.

HomeschoolDad:

Cleveland?

This is a story about Cincinnati, published in a Columbus newspaper. Three different places. Cincinnati and Cleveland are at the opposite ends of the state, and Columbus is in the middle.

Yes, I know my geography. Cincy and Cleveland are well-known to me (my beloved Steelers whip the tar out of them on a regular basis).

Nevertheless, the quotation is from a document from the diocese of Cleveland:

I copied it from a summary made by the Diocese of Cleveland.

OK, got it, didn’t catch that part of the narrative. When I saw the Columbus Dispatch masthead, I first thought it was a parish in the Columbus Diocese, until I read further. Didn’t mean to “Buckeye-splain” the vagaries of Ohio ecclesiastical geography. Ohio is a very interesting, richly textured state.

I, too, dislike the idea that posture is overly important, and I have bad knees, so I don’t normally associate posture with piety. When I once attended the SSPX when visiting friends in Germany (USMA Major and family), I noticed that the locals would stand, sit, and kneel seemingly at random. I asked them about this and they said they didn’t know, they’d noticed that too, and never figured it out themselves.

 

[Vico]

…
I, too, dislike the idea that posture is overly important, and I have bad knees, so I don’t normally associate posture with piety. When I once attended the SSPX when visiting friends in Germany (USMA Major and family), I noticed that the locals would stand, sit, and kneel seemingly at random. I asked them about this and they said they didn’t know, they’d noticed that too, and never figured it out themselves.

Some people are not able to join in a common posture as desired by the Church. See GIRM.

42. The gestures and posture of the priest, the deacon, and the ministers, as well as those of the people, ought to contribute to making the entire celebration resplendent with beauty and noble simplicity, so that the true and full meaning of the different parts of the celebration is evident and that the participation of all is fostered.[52] Therefore, attention should be paid to what is determined by this General Instruction and the traditional practice of the Roman Rite and to what serves the common spiritual good of the People of God, rather than private inclination or arbitrary choice.

A common posture, to be observed by all participants, is a sign of the unity of the members of the Christian community gathered for the sacred Liturgy: it both expresses and fosters the intention and spiritual attitude of the participants.

 

[CTBcin]

Without getting into too much detail, I will say that I’m very familiar with this parish. I’ll refrain from saying much more than that, for charity’s sake.

I’m also familiar with the pastor. He is a good and holy (not to mention patient) man. He’s far from the rigid, authoritarian traditionalist that he’s made out to be in the media. He’s simply orthodox.

It’s pretty horrible and unjust what his parishioners are doing to him right now. I didn’t realize that this news made it to the Dispatch until I saw this thread.

 

[CTBcin]

As I said, a beautiful city, and that’s just one parish (in the suburbs, of course) but it is definitely not to my liking.

Being familiar with the area, there are plenty of great parishes there, and it’s continuing to get better. But there’s also some that are… like, as you said.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

Some people are not able to join in a common posture as desired by the Church. See GIRM.

1. The gestures and posture of the priest, the deacon, and the ministers, as well as those of the people, ought to contribute to making the entire celebration resplendent with beauty and noble simplicity, so that the true and full meaning of the different parts of the celebration is evident and that the participation of all is fostered.[52] Therefore, attention should be paid to what is determined by this General Instruction and the traditional practice of the Roman Rite and to what serves the common spiritual good of the People of God, rather than private inclination or arbitrary choice.

A common posture, to be observed by all participants, is a sign of the unity of the members of the Christian community gathered for the sacred Liturgy: it both expresses and fosters the intention and spiritual attitude of the participants.

Yet one more reason, out of many, that I much prefer the EF, where various postures are tolerated (though in the US, you typically don’t have anyone standing while everyone else is sitting or kneeling).

 

[Tis_Bearself]

He’s far from the rigid, authoritarian traditionalist that he’s made out to be in the media. He simply orthodox.

Unfortunately, any Catholic cleric who tells any Catholic, “No, you can’t do that” is likely to get portrayed as an evil old authoritarian Uncle Scrooge by the press. All the “wronged” Catholic has to do is look sympathetic (i.e. female, a minority, gay, an alleged “crusader” against clergy scandals, an alleged helper of the homeless, etc) and the journalist will almost certainly write an article about rigid priest and oppressive Church.

 

[RoseScented]

(though in the US, you typically don’t have anyone standing while everyone else is sitting or kneeling).

You mentioning this reminded me of an amusing moment when I was visiting NY once. I was at mass in a high tourist traffic area and there were two guys who were apparently not warned that there’s extra kneeling in the US. Everyone went down and they were still up. Cue general looking around in a “what’s going on?” fashion and then they stayed standing. I wouldn’t even have noticed them except they were in the pew in front of me. All of us visitors seemed to be drawn to this one column in the middle of the seating, kinda near the back and side of the church, and we were generally hidden.

This isn’t related to the thread at all, but thanks for the happy chuckle the memory brought on this gloomy, cloudy day.

 

[CTBcin]

Unfortunately, any Catholic cleric who tells any Catholic, “No, you can’t do that” is likely to get portrayed as an evil old authoritarian Uncle Scrooge by the press. All the “wronged” Catholic has to do is look sympathetic (i.e. female, a minority, gay, an alleged “crusader” against clergy scandals, an alleged helper of the homeless, etc) and the journalist will almost certainly write an article about rigid priest and oppressive Church.

Yes, that’s unfortunately how it is, isn’t it?

 

[AnonStCharles]

I am not familiar with this Parish. However, this sounds like something very similar to what was going on in my home parish. St Charles Borromeo in Arlington VA.

Something pretty similar happened. For years, this church was run by very “progressive” clergy. The area is also very “progressive.” A few years ago, a new pastor was installed by the Bishop and he made some serious changes. The homilies have changed from “social justice and affordable housing all the time” to caring for the poor, but also personal piety and pro-life messages. The music has changed from Haas hymns and folk music to Gregorian chant and organ music. He made the church darker when a mass was not going on. He also fired the religious education teacher who married a divorcee.

A few loud people were upset, and decided to switch to a “progressive” parish across the river, but most people have stayed. I hope the new Pastor’s message is getting through to them, and I hope the same happens in Cincinnati. It is good to get people to come to mass and donate, but remember Revelations 3:16 “So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth.” The goal of a parish should not be to maximize attendance, or to maximize donations, but to maximize the number of souls saved. While having people come to church and donate is important to help save souls, it’s not the be all end all. I would much rather have orthodoxy taught to people, and some who can’t deal with it get turned cold rather than all be lukewarm. If people get repulsed by hearing the Church’s teaching and end up leaving, that might not be the worst outcome. Better someone outside the church, and we can pray that God will reach them and they become a real Catholic who accepts the whole faith rather than someone goes to Church every weekend, living in mortal sin and being told it’s okay.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

I am not familiar with this Parish. However, this sounds like something very similar to what was going on in my home parish. St Charles Borromeo in Arlington VA.

Something pretty similar happened. For years, this church was run by very “progressive” clergy.

“Progressive”? In the Diocese of Arlington? I normally don’t think of those two things as going together. Things may have changed.

I lived in the Arlington diocese for almost a decade and got very spoiled — though, for some reason that was never specified, they had no diocesan TLM until after we left. Had to go across the river for that.

 

[Gorgias]

“Progressive”? In the Diocese of Arlington? I normally don’t think of those two things as going together.

LOL! That was my first reaction, too!

Maybe an enclave of progressives in an otherwise orthodox diocese?

 

[AnonStCharles]

Yep! Arlington is a pretty orthodox diocese, despite Arlington itself being very liberal. For years, however, St. Charles was the outlier. I didn’t necessarily have a problem with it. And you could tell, the priests were very passionate about social justice and good causes. They were clearly good people, and I’m sure the priests were good catholics. But I do appreciate the changes, as I find the mass more reverent and the emphasis on personal piety and pro-life causes is just as important as social justice is.

 

[TheLittleLady]

Because the celebrant could be a Bishop, Archbishop, etc.

 

[PeterT]

Because the celebrant could be a Bishop, Archbishop, etc.

The official English language wording is Priest. Bishops and Archbishops are priests too. Those who came up with the official English translation of the G.I.R.M. know and understand what they wrote.

There was no reason for the Diocese of Cleveland to take it upon itself and change the wording by substituting ‘celebrant’ for ‘Priest’. No reason whatsoever.

 

[Anesti33]

TheLittleLady:

Because the celebrant could be a Bishop, Archbishop, etc.

The official English language wording is Priest. Bishops and Archbishops are priests too. Those who came up with the official English translation of the G.I.R.M. know and understand what they wrote.

There was no reason for the Diocese of Cleveland to take it upon itself and change the wording by substituting ‘celebrant’ for ‘Priest’. No reason whatsoever.

It is a perfectly correct usage of the word “celebrant” and the Diocese of Cleveland’s document is not a copy of the GIRM but a local guidance. They are perfectly within their rights to use the proper word for the man celebrating the Mass, regardless of what you think of their rights.

I did a survey of GIRM translations and found that “priest celebrant” is also in common usage in other parts.

 

[Vico]

…
Yet one more reason, out of many, that I much prefer the EF, where various postures are tolerated (though in the US, you typically don’t have anyone standing while everyone else is sitting or kneeling).

So for the Extraordinary Form Low Mass (not sung), the posture was to always kneel, except for to stand for the Gospel and Creed, but I don’t know if people today follow that (I only remember childhood before the Ordinary Form), but at the sung masses (High Mass and Missa Cantata) to generally follow the clergy postures.

In my own case, being Byzantine Catholic, the norm is to stand for the entire Divine Liturgy, except for the Apostolic Reading and Homily, however one may sit at some other places (for the Litany of Peace, as he Third Antiphon concludes until just before the Thrice-holy Hymn, and for the Litany of Fervent Supplication) and there is no kneeling at all, but rather three profound bows are made in the Anaphora.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

So for the Extraordinary Form Low Mass (not sung), the posture was to always kneel, except for to stand for the Gospel and Creed, but I don’t know if people today follow that (I only remember childhood before the Ordinary Form), but at the sung masses (High Mass and Missa Cantata) to generally follow the clergy postures.

You do not “always kneel” during the EF. Kneeling, sitting, and standing are prescribed at various points in the liturgy. It would be out of the ordinary to stand when nobody else is, but as far as who’s kneeling and who’s sitting, I don’t think anybody really notices or cares. It would be kind of bizarre to kneel for the reading of the epistle or during the sermon.

 

[Vico]

…
You do not “always kneel” during the EF. Kneeling, sitting, and standing are prescribed at various points in the liturgy. It would be out of the ordinary to stand when nobody else is, but as far as who’s kneeling and who’s sitting, I don’t think anybody really notices or cares. It would be kind of bizarre to kneel for the reading of the epistle or during the sermon.

I remember the changes started in 1965 (I was a Latin Mass altar boy about 1961-1969). This was for Low Mass:

Entrance - kneel (or stand per custom)
Opening prayers - kneel
Gloria - kneel
Epistle - kneel
Gospel - stand
Sermon - sit
Creed - stand, genuflect, stand
Offertory and Dominus Vobiscum - sit
Sanctus - kneel
Communion - kneel
Dominus Vobiscum and Deo Gratias - kneel
Last Gospel - stand, genuflect, stand
Exit - kneel (or stand per custom)

 

[HomeschoolDad]

I remember the changes started in 1965 (I was a Latin Mass altar boy about 1961-1969). This was for Low Mass:

Entrance - kneel (or stand per custom)
Opening prayers - kneel
Gloria - kneel
Epistle - kneel
Gospel - stand
Sermon - sit
Creed - stand, genuflect, stand
Offertory and Dominus Vobiscum - sit
Sanctus - kneel
Communion - kneel
Dominus Vobiscum and Deo Gratias - kneel
Last Gospel - stand, genuflect, stand
Exit - kneel (or stand per custom)

I’m ashamed to say that it has been nine months since I attended a TLM/EF, and I honestly don’t recall whether my 1962 EF parish (not my home parish, it is two hours away) kneels or sits during the Gloria and Epistle. I want to say they sit, but I wouldn’t bet my life on it. I do know that during the entrance and exit, the congregation stands.

The rest of the rubrics you cite are consonant with what my EF parish does.

 

[Vico]

Gloria - kneel
Epistle - kneel

https://www.baroniuspress.com/sample_pages/Daily%20Missal%201962%20-%20A%20guide%20to%20when%20to%20sit,%20stand%20and%20kneel.pdf