Catholic priests in military face arrest for celebrating Mass

[DaveBj]

I think Dave’s point is that a civilian contractor priest will have many other places to go other than the military. More than likely he can’t even expect to be assigned to the military for very long.

Exactly. In reality, I SERIOUSLY doubt that any contractor priests are actually going to be arrested for attempting to fulfill their duties. At worst they may be stopped at the gate and prevented from entering the military reservation. And even if any are arrested, I DOUBLE-DOG SERIOUSLY doubt that jail time would be involved. Even if any contractor priests lose their military contractor gig, with the current priest shortage in the U.S., there will be positions for them.

 

[Mike_tn]

Priests Barred from Military Chapels During Shutdown
Tuesday, October 08, 2013
cbn.com/cbnnews/politics/2013/October/Priests-Barred-from-Military-Chapels-During-Shutdown/

The U.S. Senate has not taken steps to restore military chaplain services affected by the shutdown.

Meanwhile, some Catholic priests are being barred from performing their chaplain duties during the closure.

John Schlageter, the general counselor for the Catholic military Archdiocese, said priest were unable to minister this past Sunday on at least 15 military posts.

The lockout affects priests who are not in the military but are under contract to serve as chaplains. That’s because they are classified as non-essential personnel.

The House voted Saturday to keep those chaplains working during the shutdown. It’s unclear if the Senate will consider the resolution.
[UNQUOTE]

 

[novusCatholic]

The stories continue…

Story Link

*Obama Administration Denies Mass to Catholics

Apparently, a priest was denied access to a military chapel this weekend. Father Ray Leonard serves at Naval Submarine Base Kings Bay in Georgia but because of the government shutdown, he wasn’t allowed to go to celebrate Mass this past weekend.

He is contracted by the Defense Department to meet the spiritual needs of Catholics, but not now. The chapel doors were locked and the sign said, “Shutdown: No Catholic service till further notice.”

Father Leonard said the following:

“This is our church, Catholics have an expectation and obligation to attend Mass and we were told, ‘No you can’t go to church this week…“ My parishioners were upset. They were angry and dismayed. They couldn’t believe that in America they’d be denied access to Mass by the government.”

Rep. Tim Huelskamp had this reaction:

“Time and time again this Administration demonstrates it is waging a war against the very religious freedoms upon which America was founded. This is exactly why we worked to pass legislation (House Concurrent Resolution 58) this past weekend – to protect the religious liberties of all those who bravely serve in our Armed Forces.”*

 

[DaveBj]

Locking civilian chaplains out of chapels . . . barry-cading 80-90-year-old veterans out of the memorial for their war, which is an open-air location . . . closing an area of the ocean off Florida to fishing . . . putting up orange cones to block people from pulling off a public road to look at Mount Rushmore . . . and the beat goes on . . .

I only wish that all of this would blow up in Barry’s face. I won’t argue that the Republicans should take 51% of the blame for the shutdown, but 99% of the shut-down related disgrace lands right in the Oval Office. U.S. citizens should surround the White House and just stand there chanting, “Shame! Shame! Shame!”

 

[sw85]

We should also make clear that this does not seem to affect active duty chaplains. I went to Mass just yesterday celebrated by a Captain.

 

[WhiteLeather]

3 pages of people who didn’t read the entire original article, it would appear. Folks, this is not a vendetta against Catholic priests. Chaplains of all faiths are facing the same situation. If they are active duty, they continue to serve. If they are contracted employees, they - chaplains of all faiths - are barred from performing their contracted duties.

I’m also amazed at the number of folks on this forum and others who seem to truly believe that the President has the sole power to do to the nation what we’re going through at this time. Don’t forget that there were 7 shutdowns in the Reagan era, so let’s keep this forum Catholic and not political, please.

I, too, don’t know if there are any military leaders who are willing to arrest a priest for saying Mass any more than they are willing to arrest a Methodist, Baptist, or Presbyterian pastor or even a rabbi. But if they do, they are following the law.

By the way, the ACA is also the law. Just sayin’…

 

[Hopes]

3 pages of people who didn’t read the entire original article, it would appear. Folks, this is not a vendetta against Catholic priests. Chaplains of all faiths are facing the same situation. If they are active duty, they continue to serve. If they are contracted employees, they - chaplains of all faiths - are barred from performing their contracted duties.

I’m also amazed at the number of folks on this forum and others who seem to truly believe that the President has the sole power to do to the nation what we’re going through at this time. Don’t forget that there were 7 shutdowns in the Reagan era, so let’s keep this forum Catholic and not political, please.

I, too, don’t know if there are any military leaders who are willing to arrest a priest for saying Mass any more than they are willing to arrest a Methodist, Baptist, or Presbyterian pastor or even a rabbi. But if they do, they are following the law.

By the way, the ACA is also the law. Just sayin’…

Thank you for your factual level headed ness . People with agendas try to stir up problems and debates to prove their point, and many people fall for it. Are Christians persecuted ? No doubt. Are other groups? Same answer. Is this an example of President Obama trying to further his " agenda" of stopping Catholics-all Christians from worshipping the way they want to? IMHO, no. If the military HAD enough priests, would not have ever been brought up. Tell me, is that President Obama’s fault too? And nope, I don’t fit in anywhere.

 

[otjm]

sigh when will this Tea Party shutdown end?

About the same time that Harry Reid stops saying “Pass the bill and then we will talk”.

Talk? Harry couldn’t be more transparent that he will not negotiate anything with the Republicans, because he doesn’t need to; it is law by Democrat fiat.

Politics once was said to be the art of negotiation. It no longer is; it is now the art of “We are in power and s&^%w you.”

Were the Democrats willing to negotiate in good faith, we would not be in this position.

All of which is off topic.

 

[novusCatholic]

Thank you for your factual level headed ness . People with agendas try to stir up problems and debates to prove their point, and many people fall for it. Are Christians persecuted ? No doubt. Are other groups? Same answer. Is this an example of President Obama trying to further his " agenda" of stopping Catholics-all Christians from worshipping the way they want to? IMHO, no. If the military HAD enough priests, would not have ever been brought up. Tell me, is that President Obama’s fault too? And nope, I don’t fit in anywhere.

I’m the OP. I’m not trying to stir up problems - I linked the story to acknowledge the problems. Nor do I have an agenda - I have concerns.

There is no common sense in many of the decisions being made when it comes to this government “shutdown”. There is obviously an agenda involved in many of the decisions, though.

Barricading open air monuments is about the best example. Not being sensitive to religious liberties and allowing priests to VOLUNTEER is another.

Yes, there are people with agendas. That’s why they are trying to make this “shutdown” hurt.

 

[Orleans_Attny]

I’m the OP. I’m not trying to stir up problems - I linked the story to acknowledge the problems. Nor do I have an agenda - I have concerns.

There is no common sense in many of the decisions being made when it comes to this government “shutdown”. There is obviously an agenda involved in many of the decisions, though.

Barricading open air monuments is about the best example. Not being sensitive to religious liberties and allowing priests to VOLUNTEER is another.

Yes, there are people with agendas. That’s why they are trying to make this “shutdown” hurt.

I thought hard about even opening this thread, because I knew what I’d find. Alas . . .

I happen to be a U.S. military attorney and I’m obviously working on the shutdown issues.

No one was threatening the arrest of priests.

It was the General Council for the Archdiocese of the Military that posted the open letter stating that priests would not be able to say mass.

He was correct to write that some contracts might not be executable during the shutdown. And in fact, he was right. In some places the chapels closed to religious services. (Though the one I attend was open)

The issue has to do with the dearth of active-duty priests. We don’t have them so (especially in the Continental US, and especially in the Navy) we contract with priests to provide religious support.

But the U.S. government is by law and regulation barred from accepting “volunteer” services - especially from someone you’re supposed to be paying.

To keep their bosses (base commanders, region commanders, etc.) from getting in trouble for accepting volunteer services or by committing an Anti-Deficiency Act Violation many staffs advised that the contract services at the chapel be discontinued until the shutdown ended - or until the contract chaplains were funded.

Like all contract law, the best answer depends upon what the contract says. Those contracts that require Fiscal Year (FY) 2014 dollars simply can’t be executed. Those chaplains who were paid with FY2013 dollars, can be executed.

So they did.

This is absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with President Obama or even politicians in general. There is no direct link here.

If you want to blame someone, blame the military commanders. But understand they are just trying to make the best decisions they can make, on a legal landscape that changes from day to day, hour to hour, and where firm guidance from civilian leadership was slow in coming.

PAX,
OA

 

[Graubo3]

This is absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with President Obama or even politicians in general. There is no direct link here.

PAX,
OA

Thanks for insight. Here is some more from a military chaplain/GOP congressman:

dailycaller.com/2013/10/09/an-interview-with-a-military-chaplain-who-happens-to-be-a-gop-congressman/

.

 

[RCconvert7]

Honestly, this sounds mostly like government rule-following gone awry.

The general principle is that a contracted or wage employee may not perform work without pay. These laws were meant to protect employees from being coerced into “volunteering”, but they are often followed to stupid extremes. (For example, at a department store we were legally prohibited from telling a customer where to find something while on break.) So the base could get in serious trouble for allowing the priest to say Mass.

The easy way around this would be just to move priests around until the shutdown is over. The rules only apply to people who work for the government, not to people who are pure volunteers. Send in priests from the local diocese to say Mass as volunteers on the base, and ask the chaplains to fill in at the local parishes.

The rules are stupid, but sometimes it’s easier to work around them. I doubt there’s any malice here so much as people trying to follow all the regulations to the letter.

THANK YOU for this voice of sanity. As an employer, I ABHOR the idea of my employees working without pay.

I think that a larger issue needs to be addressed here. If we are going to place blame, why not blame the people who are causing the shutdown… John Boehner, who won’t let the house of reps vote on a spending bill that is 100% the republican numbers. Or, why not bring up the point that the USCCB sent letters to a large number of Republican legislators, in the week leading up to the shutdown BEGGING them to shut down the government if the administration didn’t get rid of the birth control mandate…?
bilgrimage.blogspot.com/2013/10/role-of-us-catholic-bishops-in-shutdown.html

This means that according to the bishops, the chance that the non-catholic employee of a catholic layperson might go on bc is WORSE than THOUSANDS of people getting laid off, worse than military families not getting death benefits, worse than poor moms not getting formula for their babies (WIC), worse than the unemployed not getting their unemployment insurance checks. The hypothetical possibility of a baby not being concieved is MORE IMPORTANT than ACTUAL BABIES GETTING FOOD. What the heck? Am I taking CRAZY PILLS? Someone help me, please, please, please help me understand why this is OK?:crying::crying::crying:

 

[_Abyssinia]

Catholic priest sues over access denial at military base because of shutdown

 

[Moonbug]

THANK YOU for this voice of sanity. As an employer, I ABHOR the idea of my employees working without pay.

I think that a larger issue needs to be addressed here. If we are going to place blame, why not blame the people who are causing the shutdown… John Boehner, who won’t let the house of reps vote on a spending bill that is 100% the republican numbers. Or, why not bring up the point that the USCCB sent letters to a large number of Republican legislators, in the week leading up to the shutdown BEGGING them to shut down the government if the administration didn’t get rid of the birth control mandate…?
bilgrimage.blogspot.com/2013/10/role-of-us-catholic-bishops-in-shutdown.html

This means that according to the bishops, the chance that the non-catholic employee of a catholic layperson might go on bc is WORSE than THOUSANDS of people getting laid off, worse than military families not getting death benefits, worse than poor moms not getting formula for their babies (WIC), worse than the unemployed not getting their unemployment insurance checks. The hypothetical possibility of a baby not being concieved is MORE IMPORTANT than ACTUAL BABIES GETTING FOOD. What the heck? Am I taking CRAZY PILLS? Someone help me, please, please, please help me understand why this is OK?:crying::crying::crying:

Amen to that !!!

 

[Darken_Rahl]

3 pages of people who didn’t read the entire original article, it would appear. Folks, this is not a vendetta against Catholic priests. Chaplains of all faiths are facing the same situation. If they are active duty, they continue to serve. If they are contracted employees, they - chaplains of all faiths - are barred from performing their contracted duties.

I’m also amazed at the number of folks on this forum and others who seem to truly believe that the President has the sole power to do to the nation what we’re going through at this time. Don’t forget that there were 7 shutdowns in the Reagan era, so let’s keep this forum Catholic and not political, please.

I, too, don’t know if there are any military leaders who are willing to arrest a priest for saying Mass any more than they are willing to arrest a Methodist, Baptist, or Presbyterian pastor or even a rabbi. But if they do, they are following the law.

By the way, the ACA is also the law. Just sayin’…

DOMA is law. The feds couldn’y have cared less.

So was border enforcement in Arizona, which the Feds sued the state over.

The ACA is law, and has been violated some 19 times now by the man who signed it.

Something being the law does not automatically grant it funding or enforcement, as this President has recently shown us. Not sure why this keeps being brought up, frankly.

 

[Darken_Rahl]

THANK YOU for this voice of sanity. As an employer, I ABHOR the idea of my employees working without pay.

I think that a larger issue needs to be addressed here. If we are going to place blame, why not blame the people who are causing the shutdown… John Boehner, who won’t let the house of reps vote on a spending bill that is 100% the republican numbers. Or, why not bring up the point that the USCCB sent letters to a large number of Republican legislators, in the week leading up to the shutdown BEGGING them to shut down the government if the administration didn’t get rid of the birth control mandate…?
bilgrimage.blogspot.com/2013/10/role-of-us-catholic-bishops-in-shutdown.html

This means that according to the bishops, the chance that the non-catholic employee of a catholic layperson might go on bc is WORSE than THOUSANDS of people getting laid off, worse than military families not getting death benefits, worse than poor moms not getting formula for their babies (WIC), worse than the unemployed not getting their unemployment insurance checks. The hypothetical possibility of a baby not being concieved is MORE IMPORTANT than ACTUAL BABIES GETTING FOOD. What the heck? Am I taking CRAZY PILLS? Someone help me, please, please, please help me understand why this is OK?:crying::crying::crying:

Because you cannot do evil to attempt to bring about good. You cannot fund an immoral law (without the religious exemption) because people need to eat. The easiest solution would be the President to exempt religious organizations properly (like the waivers he has granted numerous times already…) and even most Bishops could be on board.

Why hasn’t he done that simple thing? Big business and Congress get exemptions, so it can’t be pride in his own bill. Why hasn’t he?

 

[MJE]

Catholic priest sues over access denial at military base because of shutdown

Father Ray Leonard filed a lawsuit Monday in federal district court in Washington, saying he “wishes to continue practicing his faith and ministering to his faith community free of charge… but has been told that he is subject to arrest if he does so.”

In an affidavit, Leonard said he had previously served the Tibetan community in China for a decade. “In China, I was disallowed from performing public religious services due to the lack of religious freedom in China. I never imagined that when I returned home to the United States, that I would be forbidden from practicing my religious beliefs as I am called to do, and would be forbidden from helping and serving my faith community.”

Leonard also claims “members of religions, other than the Roman Catholic religion, have been afforded access to the chapel to engage in religious exercise in conformity with their respective faiths.”

 

[manualman]

But the U.S. government is by law and regulation barred from accepting “volunteer” services - especially from someone you’re supposed to be paying.

To keep their bosses (base commanders, region commanders, etc.) from getting in trouble for accepting volunteer services or by committing an Anti-Deficiency Act Violation many staffs advised that the contract services at the chapel be discontinued until the shutdown ended - or until the contract chaplains were funded.

Oh, please. I’m sure you’ve got it correct from the lawyer’s perspective, but everybody knows that laws exist to serve justice, not to glorify lawyers and enchain the people. Do you seriously contend that a military commander would be disciplined if he allowed a contractor chaplain priest to willingly to come in and provide mass to soldiers who wanted it? Drop the lawyer talk and answer like a person.

Face it, if Bush, Reagan, Clinton, Eisenhower or ANY earlier president were in office right now, such commanders would make a common sense decision to take care of their troops and have confidence that the CIC would have their backs. But in this case, they have to consult the lawyers and cover their backsides because they have NO confidence that the pres would support them in doing the right thing. THAT is what has people here mad.

 

[novusCatholic]

Story Link Here

Government Allows Contract Priest to Celebrate Mass on Naval Base

One day after a lawsuit was filed in federal court challenging the suspension of Sunday Mass at the base, Justice Department attorneys said the priest could return.

Mute point now that a deal has been made, but still… They couldn’t have made this decision earlier?

 

[TexCatholic4JMJ]

Story Link Here

Mute point now that a deal has been made, but still… They couldn’t have made this decision earlier?

Exactly…and why were the Protestant services not interrupted?