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diggerdomer
Guest
Tradition, then, is a subordinate role for you with regard to…what? Sorry I’m unclear, thanks for any clarification.
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The_Way
Guest
I’m afraid that principle doesn’t work and the reason being is that you will get a whole series of personal opinions in conflict with one another concerning the same topic e.g. Purgatory either exists or it doesn’t exist, The assumption or Mary either happen or it didn’t happen…personal opinions don’t fit into doctrines.
God bless,
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Izdaari
Guest
Well, yes, it is messy, but it has advantages over blind submission to authority. I’m afraid that’s one difference between us that will have to remain. :tiphat:
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Izdaari
Guest
In regards to how we form theology and how we reflect on it.
Code:
* Scripture - the Holy Bible (Old and New Testaments)
* Tradition - the two millennia history of the Christian Church
* Reason - rational thinking and sensible interpretation
* Experience - a Christian's personal and communal journey in Christ(I’m not Methodist, but my church (Assemblies of God) is historically from Wesleyan roots. Anglicans are big on the Quadrilateral too… and Wesley in turn started out as an Anglican.)
We don’t have a magisterium, so we have to use something.
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crazzeto
Guest
No we don’t actually, what we have is saved by the grace of God only. But in order to receive God’s free gift of grace, we must respond with faith working through love, or faith completed by works.
The sola fide doctrine would allow for an unrepentant murderer to go straight to heaven, just as long as they “accept jesus christ into their hearts as their personal lord and saviour”. We Catholics reject this, works of love aren’t “nice”, they’re required.
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Izdaari
Guest
Unrepentant, no. Repentance is necessary. But a repentant murder who believes in his heart that Jesus rose from the grave, and who confesses Him as Lord? Sure, no problem, by grace through faith, just like the brigand crucified next to Jesus. He had no time for any good works, but he was repentant and he believed… sufficient.
In the Protestant view, good works are necessary just as in the Catholic view, and we too believe that “faith without works is dead”, but works aren’t a cause of salvation, they’re a result of it and evidence of it. If someone claims to be saved, but continually does evil and not good, perhaps they aren’t really saved. If they were, they’d want to do good. That doesn’t mean we won’t still struggle with our sinful human nature; even St. Paul did.
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crazzeto
Guest
That’s not faith alone, though is it? So it sounds like even though I doubt you’ll acknowlege it… You don’t actually beleive you’re being saved by faith alone. If you truely believed it, I don’t think you would have offered this correction.
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Josh128
Guest
A MAJOR difference between the Vulgate / DR and Protestant (and even modern Catholic) translations.
Clementine and Stuttgart Vulgate Gen 3:15 inimicitias ponam inter te et mulierem et semen tuum et semen illius ipsa(her/herself/she) conteret caput tuum et tu insidiaberis calcaneo eius
DR-Challoner Gen 3:15 I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel.
KJV Gen 3:15 15And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; **it **shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
RSV-CE Gen 3:15 I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel."
This is a major difference and changes the meaning passage significantly. It seems to be a mistake in the Vulgate, as the KJV and RSV-CE are based more on the Greek, no? There is a conspiracy theory that this error contributed much to the development of the doctrine of immaculate conception in the Catholic Church-- an obviously Protestant founded conspiracy theory, but lets see if it has any merit. I’ll check into it…
Clementine and Stuttgart Vulgate Gen 3:15 inimicitias ponam inter te et mulierem et semen tuum et semen illius ipsa(her/herself/she) conteret caput tuum et tu insidiaberis calcaneo eius
DR-Challoner Gen 3:15 I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel.
KJV Gen 3:15 15And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; **it **shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
RSV-CE Gen 3:15 I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel."
This is a major difference and changes the meaning passage significantly. It seems to be a mistake in the Vulgate, as the KJV and RSV-CE are based more on the Greek, no? There is a conspiracy theory that this error contributed much to the development of the doctrine of immaculate conception in the Catholic Church-- an obviously Protestant founded conspiracy theory, but lets see if it has any merit. I’ll check into it…
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Josh128
Guest
Quickly looking at the “immaculate conception” entry in the Catholic Encyclopedia, Gen 3:15 is mentioned, but the discrepancy is therein noted, and furthermore the passage is not cited as not a specific scriptural proof. Now, I cant say the Catholic Encyclopedia is without some bias (lets be real here) in defending doctrine --it doesnt admit Gen 3:15 was a foundation in development of the doctrine. While the Vulgate translation does seem to change the meaning of the passage, implying that Eve should stomp the serpents head instead of the “emnity”, I think the conspiracy theory mentioned earlier is a bit overblown.
I would be curious however, to see if any dark age to enlightenment age proponents of the doctrine cite that passage as a proof…dont really feel like digging that up right now though…
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Izdaari
Guest
Hmm. You think it isn’t possible to sincerely believe that good works should and do matter in a Christian’s life, and at the same time believe they aren’t a cause of salvation, but a result of it? I don’t see why there would be any apparent contradiction there.
Or is it repentance that’s the issue?
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jamison
Guest
Thank you for putting this thread back on track…
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jamison
Guest
Please be kind enough to start a different thread or stay on topic? This has been derailed quite a bit here.
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mmsiciliana
Guest
2 verses come to my mind immediately…
Genesis 3: 15 is translated differently in Catholic bibles and in Protestant Bibles.
For instance in the Catholic New American Bible:
I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel."
The NRSV Catholic edition:
I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will strike your head, and you will strike his heel."
Revised Standard Version with Apocrypha:
I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel."
Douay Rheims Catholic Bible
I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel.
Authorized King James Version
And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
The second example that come to mind is the different translation for John 1:1 in the Jehovah’s Witnesses own translation, The New World Translation:
In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god.
The Jehovah’s Witnesses’ Bible is the only translation that adds an “a” before the word “God” in that verse.
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Josh128
Guest
I posted this earlier in this thread, perhaps you didnt catch it. If you notice, only the DR really seems to vary significantly from the rest, saying “she” as in the woman, and not the emmnity, shall crush the serpents head. This is because both Jeromes original Vulgate translation (we should assume, because the Stuttgart agrees), AND the Clementine version say this. There is an atheist and Protestant conspiracy theory that much of the significance / devotion Catholics have for Mary is based SOLEY on this seeming “error”. Check my earlier posts for the Vulgate rendition and commentary.
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adriancombe
Guest
sure is:
*** 28So halten wir nun dafür, daß der Mensch gerecht werde ohne des Gesetzes Werke,allein durch den Glauben.
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Loude
Guest
Then what would be your opinion of those who lack the ability to have faith, such as those who do not have the mental capacity to believe?
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Loude
Guest
I don’t remember anywhere in the Bible where it states that the Apostles were taking notes. I would not consider myself even close to being an expert on Holy Scripture but one would think that writing the Bible depended on Oral Tradition that was guided by the Holy Spirit, that is with excemption to the letters. This case seems to be supported even more so when we consider that some of the authors were not Apostles. not to mention the time frame of when they were written.
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diggerdomer
Guest
Sounds like a discussion for a new thread, I don’t see what this has to do with the topic of Catholic/Protestant scripture differences.
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Loude
Guest
Sorry, I’m new at this and was responding to a post in this thread.
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jamison
Guest
Perhaps the mods can close this thread. It didn’t accomplish much and is hijacked.
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