Catholic Public Domain Version

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Is anyone interested in critiquing the CPDV? This need not be an in-depth or lengthy critique. I’d appreciate some balanced prudent comments about the versions strengths and weaknesses.
Ron, this is awesome that you did this. I always check a few passages when looking at a new translation, and the only one of my standard passages that raised an eyebrow for me (solely from the readability perspective) was Romans 8:19

“{8:19} For the anticipation of the creature anticipates the revelation of the sons of God.”

The anticipation-anticipates is awkward, as is “creature.” I am not saying that either of these are inaccurate. I like the Confraternity version far more: “For the eager longing of creation awaits the revelation of the sons of God.” This passage from Romans is so beautiful and so key that I would recommend polishing that one up.

Your version looks amazing, and I am so thrilled to have it available for free on-line. God bless you for this incredible work!!
 
Hi Ron.

Please do not take offense by my question but how do we know if its an accurate translation? Is your translation approved by the Church?
It seems from what I have read here that it has not been approved at this time by the appropriate authorities in the Catholic Church (but perhaps it has since?)
Don’t get me wrong. I’m not suggesting your translation is not accurate. What I’m asking is how do we know if its accurate or not? Shouldn’t Catholics stick to Church approved translations. Aren’t there already existing approved English translations of the Latin Vulgate?
Nothing to say as to the quality of the translation.

But you I would note that Catholics may make use of translations that are not approved…such as some fine Protestant works out there etc…and it can be good to compare the translations…of several…knowing the translation approach of each. Observing the appropriate discernment.

(the following is for Catholics…)

A translation of Sacred Scripture does though need to be approved in order to be Published. It cannot be published without it.

They must be approved by either the Holy See or the Conference of Bishops. And they must carry the necessary notations.
 
(Apologies for renewing an old thread, but I think this is the best way to contact Ron Conte, the translator of this version who has answered questions about it on this forum)

I read this article about scriptural translations in general, and the ‘Catholic Public Domain Version’ in particular. Many things I agreed with; a few things I didn’t agree with; and a few which gave me food for thought - always a good thing.

Then I got to the final paragraph:
But the Church is about to pass through a time of great suffering. And the City of the Vatican will be destroyed in July of 2013. So it may be some time before the Holy See has Bible versions in various languages over which it has the primary responsibility for editing and maintaining.
When I got to that, I’m afraid I lost all my respect for this work.

Any thoughts, anyone?
 
(Apologies for renewing an old thread, but I think this is the best way to contact Ron Conte, the translator of this version who has answered questions about it on this forum)

I read this article about scriptural translations in general, and the ‘Catholic Public Domain Version’ in particular. Many things I agreed with; a few things I didn’t agree with; and a few which gave me food for thought - always a good thing.

Then I got to the final paragraph:

When I got to that, I’m afraid I lost all my respect for this work.

Any thoughts, anyone?
I agree 100%. If you peruse his website “Catholic Planet”, you will see his predictions for the end of the world, and other predictions.

Because of this, I would never trust his translation of the Vulgate.
 
I’m jumping into the issue of the Knox translation of Isaiah 7:14 years after this thread originated. I love the Knox translation and have gotten over every other translation issue I’ve come accross in the Knox Bible. But I’m having a hard time with the decision, apparently, to revise an earlier edition from “virgin” in his 1945 version to “maid” in the 1949 edition. If its accurate to use either maid or virgin, why break with Catholic tradition, and St. Jerome, and use the word “maid” instead of “Virgin.”. Why not use the word “virgin” and footnote the alternative word choice “maid”? Can someone make me feel better about this issue so my decision to continue using the Knox Bible will not hinge on this one narrow but obviously important issue? Thank you!!
 
The 1910 Raguet New Testament is available here (here is one which has them in PDF). The Barbaro Version is not available on the web, I’m afraid, but I’ve seen a copy in Amazon.

If I might add, Fr. Raguet’s version was done in classical literary Japanese - as is common among Bible translations done at the period, such as the well-known Taisho Revised Version (1917), or the Japanese Orthodox Version by Nicholas of Japan (1901). Fr. Barbaro’s (1913, Venice - 1996, Pordenone) version, meanwhile, is more colloquial, ever since the Japanese Bible Society’s Colloquial Version of 1954 set the ground for more modern translations of the Bible.
Hi Patrick,

Just curious, is classical literary Japanese easily understood by the Japanese? I guess what I am asking is, would that style be considered an impediment to reading the scripture for the average Japanese person today?
 
Hi Patrick,

Just curious, is classical literary Japanese easily understood by the Japanese? I guess what I am asking is, would that style be considered an impediment to reading the scripture for the average Japanese person today?
If I could make an analogy, I’d say that the gap between Literary Japanese and modern Japanese is probably more or less the same as the gap between Middle English and modern English. So to continue the analogy this isn’t really so much an issue akin to “a modern English speaker reading the KJV” but closer to something like “a modern English speaker reading Wycliff’s translation.” Of course back in those days the educated knew classical Japanese (it was the literary language after all), but that ain’t really the case nowadays. :cool:

For starters, there’s of course the issue of some words becoming either obsolete or having a different meaning than they do today. Then there’s also the issue of changes in spelling (and the simplification of Chinese characters post-WWII) and some difference in grammar.

To give you a couple of examples: in classical Japanese, there’s the word wokasi (をかし, nowadays pronounced okashi), which meant something like ‘attractive’, ‘delightful’, ‘charming’, or ‘tasteful’. It’s really difficult to express the meaning in English, but it denotes the sort of cheerful, intellectual beauty that causes a smile to the face, of either delight or amusement. One theory has it that wokasi is probably derived from the adjective woko ‘foolish, ridiculous, laughable’. The modern Japanese adjective okashii (おかしい) is closer to this meaning: ‘laughable’, ‘ridiculous’, ‘odd’, ‘out-of-the-ordinary’.

In modern Japanese, the word aware (あわれ) is mainly used to mean ‘pathetic’ or ‘pitiable’. But in classical Japanese ahare (あはれ, historical pronunciation: afare, modern pronunciation: aware) has a slightly deeper meaning: ‘pathos’, ‘poignancy’ or ‘awareness’. (Afare was originally an exclamation of measured surprise: ‘Ah!’) Ahare is pretty much the exact opposite of wokasi: note for example mono-no-aware.
 
If I could make an analogy, I’d say that the gap between Literary Japanese and modern Japanese is probably more or less the same as the gap between Middle English and modern English. So to continue the analogy this isn’t really so much an issue akin to “a modern English speaker reading the KJV” but closer to something like “a modern English speaker reading Wycliff’s translation.” Of course back in those days the educated knew classical Japanese (it was the literary language after all), but that ain’t really the case nowadays. :cool:

For starters, there’s of course the issue of some words becoming either obsolete or having a different meaning than they do today. Then there’s also the issue of changes in spelling (and the simplification of Chinese characters post-WWII) and some difference in grammar.

To give you a couple of examples: in classical Japanese, there’s the word wokasi (をかし, nowadays pronounced okashi), which meant something like ‘attractive’, ‘delightful’, ‘charming’, or ‘tasteful’. It’s really difficult to express the meaning in English, but it denotes the sort of cheerful, intellectual beauty that causes a smile to the face, of either delight or amusement. One theory has it that wokasi is probably derived from the adjective woko ‘foolish, ridiculous, laughable’. The modern Japanese adjective okashii (おかしい) is closer to this meaning: ‘laughable’, ‘ridiculous’, ‘odd’, ‘out-of-the-ordinary’.

In modern Japanese, the word aware (あわれ) is mainly used to mean ‘pathetic’ or ‘pitiable’. But in classical Japanese ahare (あはれ, historical pronunciation: afare, modern pronunciation: aware) has a slightly deeper meaning: ‘pathos’, ‘poignancy’ or ‘awareness’. (Afare was originally an exclamation of measured surprise: ‘Ah!’) Ahare is pretty much the exact opposite of wokasi: note for example mono-no-aware.
Thanks Patrick. I had been looking for a long time for a public domain Japanese translation based on the Vulgate with no success. Its amazing how fast languages change these days. The Chinese got a new simplified language after the revolution, but I did not realize the Japanese changed theirs as well post-WWII.

I got excited when you mentioned that version, but it sounds like it would be a barrier for too many average readers. Thanks again for the information.
 
Hi Ron,

Congratulations! That must have taken several years of hard work.

Just curious, do you have it in a format that can be parsed? Like xml?

Having it in a format like xml would make it very simple for a developer to turn it into a module for programs to consume and display. Such as for desktop programs, apps for phones and tablets, websites etc.
 
I’m jumping into the issue of the Knox translation of Isaiah 7:14 years after this thread originated. I love the Knox translation and have gotten over every other translation issue I’ve come accross in the Knox Bible. But I’m having a hard time with the decision, apparently, to revise an earlier edition from “virgin” in his 1945 version to “maid” in the 1949 edition. If its accurate to use either maid or virgin, why break with Catholic tradition, and St. Jerome, and use the word “maid” instead of “Virgin.”. Why not use the word “virgin” and footnote the alternative word choice “maid”? Can someone make me feel better about this issue so my decision to continue using the Knox Bible will not hinge on this one narrow but obviously important issue? Thank you!!
I understood that the Knox Old Testament didn’t appear until 1949. Where do you find a 1945 edition?
 
Thanks Patrick. I had been looking for a long time for a public domain Japanese translation based on the Vulgate with no success. Its amazing how fast languages change these days. The Chinese got a new simplified language after the revolution, but I did not realize the Japanese changed theirs as well post-WWII.
It’s not so much that the (spoken) language changed, but that the written language did in a way: the use of the archaic literary language in formal and official contexts was dropped in most cases in favor of a more modern standard or the spoken vernacular, and the Chinese characters (hanzi/kanji) used were simplified. It’s not as if the Chinese and the Japanese all of a sudden switched from speaking classical Chinese and classical Japanese (which are, even then, already dead as a spoken language for hundreds of years) to say, Mandarin or Cantonese and modern Japanese overnight.

The Raguet New Testament is BTW available here. AFAIK the Barbaro translation isn’t available online - I think it’s still under copyright.

There are two modern translations which are pretty much the standard in Japanese Catholicism: the Franciscan version (フランシスコ会訳 Furanshisuko kai-yaku) produced by the Studium Biblicum Franciscanum, which was commenced in 1956 and finished in 1978, and the so-called New Interconfessional Translation (新共同訳 Shin Kyōdō-yaku) released in 1987, which was a joint ecumenical effort.

Before the Franciscan version was released, there was really no official Catholic translation of the Bible into Japanese. Translations available - like Raguet’s and later, Barbaro’s - were all personal efforts, plus they used the Vulgate as source text. This is in contrast to many Protestant churches, which had then pretty much adopted the 1917 Taisho Revised Version (大正改訳 Taishō Kai-yaku, in classical Japanese - available here!) as the de facto standard, and the Japanese Orthodox, which had their own translation made by St. Nicholas of Japan (also in an archaic form of the language - which incidentally they still use today in the Divine Liturgy, also translated by Nicholas into archaic Japanese).

The Franciscan version was produced essentially to compete with the so-called Colloquial Version (口語訳, Kōgo-yaku) produced by the Japanese Bible Society in 1956. The original plan was to complete the translation within ten years, but they have only gotten as far to releasing the first volume (Genesis) in 1958 that it was realized that the project would take longer to finish if they proceeded as planned due to various reasons. So they adopted the approach of releasing one volume per year, and translation work on the NT became simultaneous with that of the OT (originally the OT was to be translated first before the NT). Eventually the first volume of the NT (Mark) was released in 1962. Just two years after that, the Salesian missionary Fr. Federico Barbaro (1913-1996) released his own translation of the OT from the Vulgate - his translation of the NT already came out eleven years earlier.

Eventually, the Franciscan committee finished translation work on the NT in 1978 and released it in a single volume in 1980, just around the time when the original Interconfessional Translation was released. That didn’t stop the translation work though; work on the OT continued until 2002, when the final volume (Jeremiah) was released. The complete Bible was released fairly recently in 2011. Part of the reason for the translation delay was because many of the translators of the Franciscan version also worked on - were “given up to” - the 1978 Interconfessional Translation.

BTW did I mention the differences in the transliteration of names of biblical figures?
 
It’s not so much that the (spoken) language changed, but that the written language did in a way: the use of the archaic literary language in formal and official contexts was dropped in most cases in favor of a more modern standard or the spoken vernacular, and the Chinese characters (hanzi/kanji) used were simplified. It’s not as if the Chinese and the Japanese all of a sudden switched from speaking classical Chinese and classical Japanese (which are, even then, already dead as a spoken language for hundreds of years) to say, Mandarin or Cantonese and modern Japanese overnight.

The Raguet New Testament is BTW available here. AFAIK the Barbaro translation isn’t available online - I think it’s still under copyright.

There are two modern translations which are pretty much the standard in Japanese Catholicism: the Franciscan version (フランシスコ会訳 Furanshisuko kai-yaku) produced by the Studium Biblicum Franciscanum, which was commenced in 1956 and finished in 1978, and the so-called New Interconfessional Translation (新共同訳 Shin Kyōdō-yaku) released in 1987, which was a joint ecumenical effort.

Before the Franciscan version was released, there was really no official Catholic translation of the Bible into Japanese. Translations available - like Raguet’s and later, Barbaro’s - were all personal efforts, plus they used the Vulgate as source text. This is in contrast to many Protestant churches, which had then pretty much adopted the 1917 Taisho Revised Version (大正改訳 Taishō Kai-yaku, in classical Japanese - available here!) as the de facto standard, and the Japanese Orthodox, which had their own translation made by St. Nicholas of Japan (also in an archaic form of the language - which incidentally they still use today in the Divine Liturgy, also translated by Nicholas into archaic Japanese).

The Franciscan version was produced essentially to compete with the so-called Colloquial Version (口語訳, Kōgo-yaku) produced by the Japanese Bible Society in 1956. The original plan was to complete the translation within ten years, but they have only gotten as far to releasing the first volume (Genesis) in 1958 that it was realized that the project would take longer to finish if they proceeded as planned due to various reasons. So they adopted the approach of releasing one volume per year, and translation work on the NT became simultaneous with that of the OT (originally the OT was to be translated first before the NT). Eventually the first volume of the NT (Mark) was released in 1962. Just two years after that, the Salesian missionary Fr. Federico Barbaro (1913-1996) released his own translation of the OT from the Vulgate - his translation of the NT already came out eleven years earlier.

Eventually, the Franciscan committee finished translation work on the NT in 1978 and released it in a single volume in 1980, just around the time when the original Interconfessional Translation was released. That didn’t stop the translation work though; work on the OT continued until 2002, when the final volume (Jeremiah) was released. The complete Bible was released fairly recently in 2011. Part of the reason for the translation delay was because many of the translators of the Franciscan version also worked on - were “given up to” - the 1978 Interconfessional Translation.

BTW did I mention the differences in the transliteration of names of biblical figures?
Thanks for the information Patrick.

As for the names, I suspect the transliteration of the biblical figures differed greatly amongst the different versions…
 
Thanks for the information Patrick.

As for the names, I suspect the transliteration of the biblical figures differed greatly amongst the different versions…
That’s correct. There was a time when you could pretty much figure out what denomination a person is from based on their preferred transliteration of ‘Jesus’. Catholics originally used Iesuzu (イエズス) from the Latin Iesus. Protestants - from Hepburn onwards - preferred the transliteration Iesu (イエス), while the Japanese Orthodox used Iisusu Harisutosu (イイスス・ハリストス, from the Slavonic/Russian Іисусъ Христосъ/Иисус Христос Iisus Hristos). The ‘standard’ transliteration in non-religious contexts follows the Protestant scheme: Iesu Kirisuto (イエス・キリスト).

Eventually Catholics and Protestants in Japan agreed to standardize the transliterations of biblical names as part of the ecumenical effort, so that nowadays Iesu would also be used in Catholic contexts, although the former Latinate transliteration is still preserved in the Japanese name for the Jesuits - the ‘Society of Jesus’ (イエズス会 Iezusu-kai) - and older texts. The Japanese Orthodox still uses their unique transliteration scheme today - the official name for the Japanese Orthodox Church in Japanese is Harisutosu Seikyōkai (ハリストス正教会).

Part of the reason why the original 1978 Interconfessional Translation was deemed less than satisfactory actually (necessitating the revision) is because it used a unique transliteration scheme of its own: for instance ‘Jesus’ is transliterated as Iesusu (イエスス) and Paul was Paurosu (パウロス), which is admittedly closer to the Greek forms Ἰησοῦς (Iēsous) and Παῦλος (Paulos) but which many Japanese Christians found unfamiliar and grating. (Note: Catholics and Protestants transliterated Paul’s name in the same way: Pauro パウロ. The Japanese Orthodox used Paueru パウェル, from Павел Pavel.) In fact, the newer version is still criticized for not following ‘familiar’ transliteration schemes from older translations like the Taisho Revised Version or the Colloquial Version: for instance, using Efeso (エフェソ) instead of Epeso (エペソ) for ‘Ephesus’.
 
Note though that the 1910 Catholic Raguet version already used the form Efeso. :cool: By the way, Japan being a country highly sensitive to ‘political correctness’ (yes, you heard that right), there was really a minor controversy about how to render the biblical word(s) for “leprosy.” (While we’re at it, should we move this discussion to another thread?)
 
, I would never trust … translation of the Vulgate.
And as I recall it does NOT have an imprimatur…

So nope it is not a Catholic version.

(and this thread is real old --so lets let it die --those who want to discuss Japanese -this old thread is not really the place…)
 
AmbroseSJ -

Thanks for responding. Here’s the website I obtained the information from, and I have pasted the relevant text from the article. Not sure how reliable the website or source is. The lead into his section 5.2 was the discovery of the Isaiah scroll amongst the Dead Sea Scrolls.

wallsofjericho.info/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=15&Itemid=31

5.2 Monsignor Knox’s U-turn

Among the first to react was Monsignor Knox, the prominent Roman Catholic scholar and Bible translator. His case is worth telling in so much that it is representative of the monumental turnaround in many church scholarly circles. Until 1945 Knox perpetuated the translation of the word in Isaiah 7.14 as “virgin” without qualification. However after the finding of the Dead Sea Scrolls, without acknowledging his previous position, Knox changed his translation of the word to “maid”.

Knox 1936—1945

In the 1936—1945 period Knox published two works in which he endorsed the translation of “virgin” in Isaiah 7:14, without even a hint that this translation was questionable.

In 1936 Knox’s The Holy Bible: an abridgement and rearrangement rendered Isaiah 7:14 as "Behold a virgin shall conceive and bear a son…” There was no comment about the word translated as ”virgin”, merely a footnote stating: “This text has been quoted by all the Fathers, from St. Justin onwards, in proof of our Lord’s Virgin Birth.”

In Knox’s 1945 translation of the New Testament, a footnote to Matthew 1:23 upheld the translation of the word in Isaiah 7:14 as ‘”virgin”, in categorical terms. The only qualification to the translation in his work of some nine years earlier related to the definite article in the Hebrew: “Isaias vii. 14. ‘The virgin’ is a literal translation of the Hebrew; ‘a virgin’ would equally express the sense of the original prophecy.”

Knox 1949

After the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls, Knox did a U-turn on the meaning of the word in Isaiah 7:14. No longer did he claim that “virgin” is the literal translation of the word. In his 1949 translation of the Old Testament, the word is translated as ”maid”.

Knox’s footnote includes these words: “In the Hebrew text, the word translated ‘virgin’ should perhaps be ‘maiden’, since it refers rather to a time than to a state of life; but in view of the event, we cannot doubt that this prophecy looks forward to the Virgin Birth. No very successful attempt has been made to explain its relevance to contemporary happenings.”

Knox’s U-turn between 1945 and 1949 was an enormous shift. Not accidentally, his turnaround coincided with the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls
 
While it is certainly a notable accomplishment to translate the entire Bible from the Vulgate, it’s hard for me to understand why a Vulgate-based translation would be superior to one from the original Greek and Hebrew. Modern archaeology has found Greek and Hebrew texts that are older than Jerome’s Vulgate (commissioned in 382 AD), so why use the Latin text as a major basis for an English translation?
-Joe Offer-
 
Note though that the 1910 Catholic Raguet version already used the form Efeso. :cool: By the way, Japan being a country highly sensitive to ‘political correctness’ (yes, you heard that right), there was really a minor controversy about how to render the biblical word(s) for “leprosy.” (While we’re at it, should we move this discussion to another thread?)
Sorry for the tangent off topic. And thanks Patrick for the in depth answers. No need to fork the thread.
 
denton catholic:
Thanks for responding. Here’s the website I obtained the information from, and I have pasted the relevant text from the article. Not sure how reliable the website or source is. The lead into his section 5.2 was the discovery of the Isaiah scroll amongst the Dead Sea Scrolls.
Well that is revealing! I had no idea that Knox had published a book called: The Holy Bible: an Abridgement and Rearrangement in 1936. The book appears to be very scarce, and so I was unable to learn much about it. For example, was it created from an existing translation, or did he do the translation? That’s an important question.

The quote on the 1945 New Testament is correct.

The footnote on his 1949 translation of the OT is also correct.

I have to admit, I was disappointed myself that Knox would forsake the Latin Vulgate for the Hebrew Almah, when he was supposedly translating the Vulgate.

I agree that the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls was probably the catalyst for his decision to abandon the Vulgate in this verse. Sad though.

My own personal opinion is that Simeon in the Temple was a translator of the prophet Isaiah, and that he himself chose the Greek word for Virgin. I know that would make him VERY old, but such a thing is not unheard of. The prophets and other books of the Septuagint, were translated at a much later date than the original Torah translation.
 
While it is certainly a notable accomplishment to translate the entire Bible from the Vulgate, it’s hard for me to understand why a Vulgate-based translation would be superior to one from the original Greek and Hebrew. Modern archaeology has found Greek and Hebrew texts that are older than Jerome’s Vulgate (commissioned in 382 AD), so why use the Latin text as a major basis for an English translation?
-Joe Offer-
I am speaking for myself on this answer, one reason for the preference for a Latin text as a major basis is not that it is Latin, but that the Vulgate carries a weight of authority for its standardized use by the Church for over a thousand years. It has played such a huge part in the Church, and the Church has been truly blessed by it. Its one of those things that you can NEVER go wrong by using it. Modern versions today have Protestant fingerprints all over them because the Greek and Hebrew texts used today by translators are critical texts done mostly by Protestant scholarship, using Protestant textual critical systems to determine what they belive to be the “most reliable” readings. Not to mention that there are ancient manuscripts that have been in the hands of heretics and altered. But with the Vulgate it has been a standard reliable Catholic version that has been given the seal of approval.

I’m not saying that modern Biblical scholarship is bad because I love the field of study. But it doesn’t have the “can’t go wrong with it” kind of authority that you get with the Vulgate.
 
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