Catholic responses to Blake Ostler (Mormon apologist)?

[TOmNossor]

Tom - What I believe is lacking for you is obedience. Plain and simple.

It occurs to me that the fully engaged response to this is to ask for clarification.
if that is not the case, then I am not smart enough or engaged enough to know what you mean, so I still need clarification.
Charity, TOm

 

[crazzeto]

It occurs to me that the fully engaged response to this is to ask for clarification.
if that is not the case, then I am not smart enough or engaged enough to know what you mean, so I still need clarification.
Charity, TOm

I suspect though the OP aline can confirm, that he means obedience to the truth. I we should seek truth first, no matter our “feelings” on the matter. Like darth Vader suggested, our feelings betray us.

 

[lax16]

It occurs to me that the fully engaged response to this is to ask for clarification.
if that is not the case, then I am not smart enough or engaged enough to know what you mean, so I still need clarification.
Charity, TOm

Hi Tom - I do not mean this as an insult.

Jesus came as the Messiah and founded a church. The apostles went out and spread the gospel. 2,000 years later we are still carrying on and called to follow Christ and His Church.

We may not understand every little thing along the way, but we pray and move forward in faith and obedience.

We can question and read, etc, however, we are called to be obedient no matter how we might feel about this or that.

Sometimes we can get too caught up in the questions and the details!

 

[Ezekiel_Stone]

well…I engaged him this morning and have gotten no responses…

What do you mean by “engaged” him? Emailed him?

I’d be curious if he’d respond to someone … more like 2PekingGuys or Marie

“I saw a definition of heresy once, from a Catholic POV of course, that defined heresy as placing a focus on one aspect of the Catholic faith, to the detriment of everything else.”

Very few Mormons ever use the word “heresy.” I heard Elder Oaks give a fireside once on that tendency to focus on one aspect of the faith to the detriment of everything else, but I think that the word he used was “annoying.” He used the metaphor of a piano … folks hitting just one note. I’m not seeing any mormon here focusing on just one aspect of the Catholic faith. I’m curious what one aspect of Catholicism you think that mormons focus on? I’ve seen mormons focus on Catholic charity, on Catholic opposition to same-sex marriage, on Catholic respect for marriage, on our mutual love of Jesus Christ … I’ve seen Mormons touched by your reverence for Mary the Mother of God, and Max Wilberg who now directs the Mormon Tabernacle Choir used to get BYU students to sing Catholic hymns to Mary. Which of those offends you?

 

[TexanKnight]

What do you mean by “engaged” him? Emailed him?

I’d be curious if he’d respond to someone … more like 2PekingGuys or Marie

“I saw a definition of heresy once, from a Catholic POV of course, that defined heresy as placing a focus on one aspect of the Catholic faith, to the detriment of everything else.”

Very few Mormons ever use the word “heresy.” I heard Elder Oaks give a fireside once on that tendency to focus on one aspect of the faith to the detriment of everything else, but I think that the word he used was “annoying.” He used the metaphor of a piano … folks hitting just one note. I’m not seeing any mormon here focusing on just one aspect of the Catholic faith. I’m curious what one aspect of Catholicism you think that mormons focus on? I’ve seen mormons focus on Catholic charity, on Catholic opposition to same-sex marriage, on Catholic respect for marriage, on our mutual love of Jesus Christ … I’ve seen Mormons touched by your reverence for Mary the Mother of God, and Max Wilberg who now directs the Mormon Tabernacle Choir used to get BYU students to sing Catholic hymns to Mary. Which of those offends you?

on a different thread, I posted all the anti-Catholic and anti- other church comments by your prophets and leaders Kinda hard to play innocent in the face of facts

 

[Ezekiel_Stone]

on a different thread, I posted all the anti-Catholic and anti- other church comments by your prophets and leaders Kinda hard to play innocent in the face of facts

Given the spirit of your remarks on this board, I’m not surprised at all that Mr. Ostler (whoever he is) has not responded to you, Tex. Like I said, I’m curious how he would respond to the more reasonable and polite members of this board.

 

[Ezekiel_Stone]

Given the spirit of your remarks on this board, I’m not surprised at all that Mr. Ostler (whoever he is) does not wish to engage you, Tex. Like I said, I’m curious how he would respond to the more reasonable and polite members of this board.

 

[TexanKnight]

Given the spirit of your remarks on this board, I’m not surprised at all that Mr. Ostler (whoever he is) does not wish to engage you, Tex. Like I said, I’m curious how he would respond to the more reasonable and polite members of this board.

lol…like most LDS, you consider truth and facts rude.

I hope you see the truth someday

 

[Ezekiel_Stone]

“like most LDS, you consider truth and facts rude.”

No. But I do admit that there are some of LDS people who do consider bad news rude. I could tell you some funny stories about BYU … I was never like that, even when I was LDS.

I wonder how many Catholics on this site could say with a straight face that they do not think that your posts about Mormons are rude, Tex. Or an embarassment to your community… As I felt when one of my mission companions used to say rude things about Catholics. Come to think of it, he also used to use that “truth” defense.

I do concede that some of the things that you say is true. Like the LDS hypersensitivity to rudeness and conflict. But that’s generally true of most consensus-driven societies.

 

[TexanKnight]

“like most LDS, you consider truth and facts rude.”

No. But I do admit that there are some of LDS people who do consider bad news rude. I could tell you some funny stories about BYU … I was never like that, even when I was LDS.

I wonder how many Catholics on this site could say with a straight face that they do not think that your posts about Mormons are rude, Tex. Or an embarassment to your community… As I felt when one of my mission companions used to say rude things about Catholics. Come to think of it, he also used to use that “truth” defense.

I do concede that some of the things that you say is true. Like the LDS hypersensitivity to rudeness and conflict. But that’s generally true of most consensus-driven societies.

wow…so now I am an embarrassment to my community?

and you call ME rude?

 

[Ezekiel_Stone]

I am not part of your community, Tex, so I cannot say, and did not say that your posts cause embarassment to this online community. I have seen at least two Catholics on this site hint publicly that they considered your unpleasant posts with regard to mormons to cause them discomfort.

Another fine distinction that you have missed, is that I did not say anything about YOU being an embarassment, I said “your posts.” I doubt that any of us has never gaffed and said something that caused us and those we love some embarassment.

I do know that if a mormon, on an LDS site, was as discourteous to Catholics as you have been to mormons, that I would find that mormon’s posts to be embarassing. Even though I’m an Ex.

When Paul DuPre told that terrible story about his brother refusing to talk to him because it was “family home evening,” I cringed in embarassment. Unlike some other stories and theories that have been told, that one is believable. Not typical, but believable. And it’s a story that belongs in the Mormon hall of shame.

I simply wonder how many Catholics here feel the same about your conduct towards mormons on this forum.

If that seems discourteous to you, then please consider the possibility that it’s the Truth.

 

[Stephen168]

… Mr. Ostler (whoever he is) …

I guess he isn’t in the heart of Mormon thinking.

 

[Stephen168]

Hi Tom - I do not mean this as an insult.

Jesus came as the Messiah and founded a church. The apostles went out and spread the gospel. 2,000 years later we are still carrying on and called to follow Christ and His Church.

We may not understand every little thing along the way, but we pray and move forward in faith and obedience.

We can question and read, etc, however, we are called to be obedient no matter how we might feel about this or that.

Sometimes we can get too caught up in the questions and the details!

Even when I get caught up in the questions, I’ve always found his Catholic Church has a very reasoned answer. Sometimes it may take me 20 years to understand it but the answer is always there.

 

[Ezekiel_Stone]

I guess he isn’t in the heart of Mormon thinking.

Apologetics aren’t as central to most Mormons as they seem to be for many Catholics here. Few mormons are interested in them. There’s a Moromon Apologetics site, but I can’t even remember what it’s called. I can’t off hand name any mormon apologist. Mormons are generally more interested in becoming better mormons than in agonizing over whether to be a mormon.

I could ask my brother whether Ostler is considered a highly useful apologist, but I won’t ask him if he’s the “best.” **Mormons cringe at questions over who is the bestest or most holiest whatever. ** If someone asked whether President Benson or President Kimball was a better prophet, he’d probably get no answer but a bunch of weird looks from Mormons. They regard questions like that as an invitation to pride, and all the sin and conflict that brings. I’m still a litttle shocked at those who compare Pope Benedict to Pope Francis. It seems disrespectful to the office as well as to the men.

 

[Stephen168]

Apologetics aren’t as central to most Mormons as they seem to be for many Catholics here.

Apologetics are central to Mormons here. Some Mormons claim Ostler is a Mormon theologian. Clearly he is not, and your statement supports that.

 

[TexanKnight]

I am not part of your community, Tex, so I cannot say, and did not say that your posts cause embarassment to this online community. I have seen at least two Catholics on this site hint publicly that they considered your unpleasant posts with regard to mormons to cause them discomfort.

and many more than two Catholics have told me they appreciate my posts…so? Thank you for backtracking on your rude comments.

Another fine distinction that you have missed, is that I did not say anything about YOU being an embarassment, I said “your posts.” I doubt that any of us has never gaffed and said something that caused us and those we love some embarassment.

That is untrue. You made this a separate and complete sentence : “Or an embarassment to your community.” You did not make any distinction. I assume that was intentional, so you could backtrack more easily.

I do know that if a mormon, on an LDS site, was as discourteous to Catholics as you have been to mormons, that I would find that mormon’s posts to be embarassing. Even though I’m an Ex.

Perhaps. But when I was part of one, Mormons were MUCH ruder to me that ANYTHING I have said on this board, and when I complained, I was banned. No one came to my defense. So, in my experience, you are flat wrong.

When Paul DuPre told that terrible story about his brother refusing to talk to him because it was “family home evening,” I cringed in embarassment. Unlike some other stories and theories that have been told, that one is believable. Not typical, but believable. And it’s a story that belongs in the Mormon hall of shame.

What stories have been told that are unbelievable? Or do you feel that they are not believable because they make the LDS Church look even worse?

I simply wonder how many Catholics here feel the same about your conduct towards mormons on this forum.

I simply wonder why you are like the rest of the Mormons who come here and, because they cannot respond to the issues, they attack the posters and their styles of posting?

If that seems discourteous to you, then please consider the possibility that it’s the Truth.

If that is the standard, then you MUST consider my points about the LDS true… because YOU consider them discourteous…

Be Blessed

 

[TexanKnight]

Apologetics aren’t as central to most Mormons as they seem to be for many Catholics here. Few mormons are interested in them.

You have apparently not been to LDS Forums and LDS websites

There’s a Moromon Apologetics site, but I can’t even remember what it’s called. I can’t off hand name any mormon apologist. Mormons are generally more interested in becoming better mormons than in agonizing over whether to be a mormon.

Please give your reference for this assertion

I could ask my brother whether Ostler is considered a highly useful apologist, but I won’t ask him if he’s the “best.” **Mormons cringe at questions over who is the bestest or most holiest whatever. **

Please give your reference for this assertion

If someone asked whether President Benson or President Kimball was a better prophet, he’d probably get no answer but a bunch of weird looks from Mormons.

Maybe only where you live. When that has come up here, Kimball always gets the nod

 

[Ezekiel_Stone]

Apologetics are central to Mormons here. Some Mormons claim Ostler is a Mormon theologian. Clearly he is not, and your statement supports that.

I’m not sure how my own personal ignorance as an ex-Mormon supports anything, anymore than the word “attest” is appropriate for the uninformed opinions of some on this site as to whether I am a Christian, based on a few exchanges over the internet.

As luck would have it, my brother the stake president just called me to invite me to his son’s baptism 3 minutes ago, and I asked who he considered the best apologist for the LDS church. He hesitated a moment, probably because “apologist” isn’t even an ordinary term in the LDS vocabulary So I said, who has the best books for responding to attacks by anti-mormons. Oh, he said. “Brent Ostler, without question.” So there you have it. Unless Blake Ostler has a brother named Brent, I suspect that my brother was referring to the same dude that you are referring to. Also, it is rather early in the morning, and I might have heard him wrong.

 

[lax16]

Apologetics aren’t as central to most Mormons as they seem to be for many Catholics here. Few mormons are interested in them. There’s a Moromon Apologetics site, but I can’t even remember what it’s called. I can’t off hand name any mormon apologist. Mormons are generally more interested in becoming better mormons than in agonizing over whether to be a mormon.

Hi Ezekiel Stone! I must beg to differ. I live in Utah and know many Mormons that agonize over wanting to leave but don’t want to offend parents. Or, claim the church is true then admit they haven’t been to church in years.
But, most of all, websites like Mormonthink and exMormon are loaded with questions from Mormons that are faced with disbelief and do not know where to go with it. Or, come across a piece of info about Joseph Smith that shakes them to their core…
*So while Mormons may not be looking to be apologists to non-members, they most certainly are seeking out answers to the defend the faith to themselves. *

I could ask my brother whether Ostler is considered a highly useful apologist, but I won’t ask him if he’s the “best.” **Mormons cringe at questions over who is the bestest or most holiest whatever. ** If someone asked whether President Benson or President Kimball was a better prophet, he’d probably get no answer but a bunch of weird looks from Mormons. They regard questions like that as an invitation to pride, and all the sin and conflict that brings. I’m still a litttle shocked at those who compare Pope Benedict to Pope Francis. It seems disrespectful to the office as well as to the men.

Who is comparing Pope Benedict to Pope Francis? I don’t watch t.v. so maybe I am missing some information on this.
thanks!

 

[lax16]

I’m not sure how my own personal ignorance as an ex-Mormon supports anything, anymore than the word “attest” is appropriate for the uninformed opinions of some on this site as to whether I am a Christian, based on a few exchanges over the internet.

As luck would have it, my brother the stake president just called me to invite me to his son’s baptism 3 minutes ago, and I asked who he considered the best apologist for the LDS church. He hesitated a moment, probably because “apologist” isn’t even an ordinary term in the LDS vocabulary So I said, who has the best books for responding to attacks by anti-mormons. Oh, he said. “Brent Ostler, without question.” So there you have it. Unless Blake Ostler has a brother named Brent, I suspect that my brother was referring to the same dude that you are referring to. Also, it is rather early in the morning, and I might have heard him wrong.

I think it is because of the internet and all of the information that is available about Mormonism and because of how many Catholics and Protestants are getting really good at knowing their faith - that it is becoming necessary for some Mormons to become better apologists.

For instance, when missionaries stop to talk to someone on the street, the person might know that JS had multiple wives, some underage, and ask about that.

Not so long ago, that information was not available to the average person.

Also, listening to Catholic radio (especially Catholic Answers Live) has helped so many Catholics get up to speed on their faith that they are far more knowledgeable than ever.
This means the missionaries have to keep up as well.

Any time I have asked questions about Mormonism, I was told to have the missionaries come to my house. At least here on the forum, I can ask without a knock at my door!

Anyway, I absolutely think Mormons are becoming better apologists because there is so much information out there that is really hard to ignore. They have to learn what to say in response.