Catholic rites

[Phyllo]

Hi,

There are a lot of Catholic Rites. I practice the Roman Rite. I have a few questions:

1. Do all these different rites follow the Magisterium and are they recognized by the Pope?
2. Do they all follow Vatican II?
3. Do they all have licit Masses?
4. Why is the SSPX considered schismatic and not a Rite? As I understand they just don’t want to follow the pastoral suggestions of the council.

Thanks

 

[ComeHome2Rome]

1. Yes and Yes
2. Yes
3. Yes
4. It’s my understanding that they reject the authority/validity of all Pope’s that came after Pope Pius X and they reject the validity of the Second Vatican Ecumenical Council.

I’m about the visit the Maronite Rite Catholic Church this morning.

How many Catholic Rites/Churchesr have you visited?

Hi,

There are a lot of Catholic Rites. I practice the Roman Rite. I have a few questions:

1. Do all these different rites follow the Magisterium and are they recognized by the Pope?
2. Do they all follow Vatican II?
3. Do they all have licit Masses?
4. Why is the SSPX considered schismatic and not a Rite? As I understand they just don’t want to follow the pastoral suggestions of the council.

Thanks

 

[Ignatius]

I’m about the visit the Maronite Rite Catholic Church this morning.

Which parish?

 

[Rolltide]

Most people are not aware that the “Catholic Church” is actually comprised of twenty-three self-governing Catholic Churches, all in union with the pope. The Western, or Latin Catholic Church, is so large, however, that many people, even Catholics, are completely unaware of the other twenty-two churches, which make up the Eastern Branch. (Some have from only a few thousand members to a few million.)

Originally, there was only one denomination… the Catholic Church (the word Catholic meaning “universal”). However, there were five cities that early on were singled out as being important centers of Christianity. They were Jerusalem, Antioch, Alexandria, Constantinople, and of course, Rome. Each developed its own unique traditions and liturgy, but ALL shared a common theology and were in communion with each other and the Bishop of Rome, known as the Pope. However, about 1000 years ago, due to a variety of unfortunate problems, the other four cities, allied with the Byzantine Empire, mutually broke off from Rome, forming the various Eastern Orthodox Churches. Although doctrinally, they are virtually identical to Catholics, they refuse to acknowledge that the pope is more than a “first among equals”. (A couple groups broke of much earlier in the 400s AD also, to form what are known as the Oriental Orthodox Churches).

What has happened is that over time, some portions of each of the various Orthodox groups have decided to reconcile with the Catholic Church and come back into communion with Rome. When they do, they are allowed to keep all of their traditions and much of their independence, although they acknowledge the authority of the Pope. They become truly Catholic, in that anyone from ANY branch of the Catholic Church can participate in the liturgy and ceremonies of any OTHER branch of the Catholic Church. The only two Eastern groups that never fell out of communion with the Catholic Church were the Maronite Catholic Church, and the Italo-Albanian Catholic Church. So… for every branch of the Orthodox Churches that are NOT in communion with Rome, there is a corresponding and virtually identical branch of the Eastern Catholic Church that IS in communion with Rome. Since their customs and liturgies date from before the Council of Trent, they are allowed to remain.

The following liturgies are used by the Eastern Catholic Churches:

• The Liturgy of St. Basil
• The Chaldean Mass
• The Order of the Divine and Holy Liturgy of Our Father Among the Saints Gregory the Theologian (or Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts)
• The Liturgy of St. James
• The Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom
• The Liturgy of St. Mark
• The Holy Qorbono

 

[Rolltide]

Here is a listing that includes EACH of the twenty-three Catholic Churches in union with the Pope. Do not confuse “churches” with “rites”. A rite is a series of traditions, that includes different customs and liturgies. Several different churches may use the exact same rite. A Church has its own rules and separate line of authority to the Pope. It may also have a figure in charge, like a Metropolitan or a Patriarch (like an Archbishop), since these churches are generally very small and work very hard to preserve their unique traditions. The major rites are the Latin, Alexandrian, Antiochian, Armenian, Chaldean, and Byzantine.

**The Western (Latin) Catholic Church

Latin liturgical tradition**

1. Ordinary Form (This is the form of the Mass that you will find in virtually every Latin Catholic Church almost every day of the week. This Mass has existed since the mid-1960s, ever since reforms were made following the Second Vatican Council.)
2. Extraordinary Form (This is the form of the Mass that was used in virtually every Latin Catholic Church from the Middle Ages until the mid-1960s. It may still be said in Catholic Churches should a priest choose to use it. Some of the differences from the Ordinary Form include the exclusive use of the Latin language (except for the homily), the receipt of Communion exclusively on the tongue and kneeling, the priest facing the same direction as the people (toward the altar and God) so he can lead the people in prayer, no lay participation on the altar, and usually, no responses by lay people.)
3. Ambrosian Rite (Only permitted in the Archdiocese of Milan)
4. Mozarabic Rite (Only permitted in the Cathedral of Toledo, Spain and a few surrounding churches of the diocese)
5. Bragan Rite (Only permitted in the Archdiocese of Braga, Portugal)
6. Anglican-Use Mass (This form was once only permitted in the extremely rare circumstance in which an Anglican priest converted to Catholicism and brings his entire parish with him. In that event, a parish could continue to use the Anglican liturgy, with corrections to make it conform with Catholic teachings. It was originally meant as a transitional liturgy, and upon the death of the pastor, the church would revert to the Ordinary Form. With the recent provisions announced by the Vatican to allow Anglicans into the Catholic Church and keep their traditions, it seems that the Anglican-Use will now become both far more widespread AND permanent.)

**Rites of Religious Orders **

1. Dominican Rite
2. Carthusian Rite
3. Carmelite Rite
4. Cisternian Rite

Note: Technically, the forms of the Latin liturgy listed above are NOT different rites, but variations of the SAME rite, although people do tend to commonly use the term somewhat erroneously in this context. The differences between the Latin “rites” are FAR less than those between the Latin liturgy and any of the Eastern Rites.)

**The Eastern Catholic Churches

1. Alexandrian liturgical tradition**
2. Coptic Catholic Church (patriarchate): Egypt (1741)
3. Ethiopian Catholic Church (metropolia): Ethiopia, Eritrea (1846)
   2. Antiochian (Antiochene or West-Syrian) liturgical tradition
4. Maronite Church (patriarchate): Lebanon, Cyprus, Jordan, Israel, Palestine, Egypt, Syria, Argentina, Brazil, United States, Australia, Canada, Mexico (union re-affirmed 1182)
5. Syriac Catholic Church (patriarchate): Lebanon, Iraq, Jordan, Kuwait, Palestine, Egypt, Sudan, Syria, Turkey, United States and Canada, Venezuela (1781)
6. Syro-Malankara Catholic Church (major archiepiscopate): India, United States (1930)
   3. Armenian liturgical tradition:
7. Armenian Catholic Church (patriarchate): Lebanon, Iran, Iraq, Egypt, Syria, Turkey, Jordan, Palestine, Ukraine, France, Greece, Latin America, Argentina, Romania, United States, Canada, Eastern Europe (1742)
   4. Chaldean or East Syrian liturgical tradition:
8. Chaldean Catholic Church (patriarchate): Iraq, Iran, Lebanon, Egypt, Syria, Turkey, United States (1692)
9. Syro-Malabar Church (major archiepiscopate): India, Middle East, Europe and America.
   5. Byzantine (Constantinopolitan) liturgical tradition:
10. Albanian Greek Catholic Church (apostolic administration): Albania (1628)
11. Belarusian Greek Catholic Church (no established hierarchy at present): Belarus (1596)
12. Bulgarian Greek Catholic Church (apostolic exarchate): Bulgaria (1861)
13. Byzantine Church of the Eparchy of Križevci (an eparchy and an apostolic exarchate): Croatia, Serbia and Montenegro (1611)
14. Greek Byzantine Catholic Church (two apostolic exarchates): Greece, Turkey (1829)
15. Hungarian Greek Catholic Church (an eparchy and an apostolic exarchate): Hungary (1646)
16. Italo-Albanian Catholic Church (two eparchies and a territorial abbacy): Italy (Never separated)
17. Macedonian Greek Catholic Church (an apostolic exarchate): Republic of Macedonia (1918)
18. Melkite Greek Catholic Church (patriarchate): Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Israel, Jerusalem, Brazil, United States, Canada, Mexico, Iraq, Egypt and Sudan, Kuwait, Australia, Venezuela, Argentina (1726)
19. Romanian Church United with Rome, Greek-Catholic (major archiepiscopate): Romania, United States (1697)
20. Russian Catholic Church: (two apostolic exarchates, at present with no published hierarchs): Russia, China (1905); currently about 20 parishes and communities scattered around the world, including five in Russia itself, answering to bishops of other jurisdictions
21. Ruthenian Catholic Church (a sui juris metropolia, an eparchy, and an apostolic exarchate): United States, Ukraine, Czech Republic (1646)
22. Slovak Greek Catholic Church (metropolia): Slovak Republic, Canada (1646)
23. Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church (major archiepiscopate): Ukraine, Poland, United States, Canada, Great Britain, Australia, Germany and Scandinavia, France, Brazil, Argentina (1595)

 

[Phyllo]

1. Yes and Yes
2. Yes
3. Yes
4. It’s my understanding that they reject the authority/validity of all Pope’s that came after Pope Pius X and they reject the validity of the Second Vatican Ecumenical Council.

I’m about the visit the Maronite Rite Catholic Church this morning.

How many Catholic Rites/Churchesr have you visited?

None. I am lucky if I can find a Latin Mass that is close enough to get to.

I didn’t realize that they don’t recognize Pope Benedict XVI’s authority. I wonder if that is true. I know they don’t recognize VaticanII.

 

[Phyllo]

Here is a listing that includes EACH of the twenty-three Catholic Churches in union with the Pope. Do not confuse “churches” with “rites”. A rite is a series of traditions, that includes different customs and liturgies. Several different churches may use the exact same rite. A Church has its own rules and separate line of authority to the Pope. It may also have a figure in charge, like a Metropolitan or a Patriarch (like an Archbishop), since these churches are generally very small and work very hard to preserve their unique traditions. The major rites are the Latin, Alexandrian, Antiochian, Armenian, Chaldean, and Byzantine.

**The Western (Latin) Catholic Church

Latin liturgical tradition**

1. Ordinary Form (This is the form of the Mass that you will find in virtually every Latin Catholic Church almost every day of the week. This Mass has existed since the mid-1960s, ever since reforms were made following the Second Vatican Council.)
2. Extraordinary Form (This is the form of the Mass that was used in virtually every Latin Catholic Church from the Middle Ages until the mid-1960s. It may still be said in Catholic Churches should a priest choose to use it. Some of the differences from the Ordinary Form include the exclusive use of the Latin language (except for the homily), the receipt of Communion exclusively on the tongue and kneeling, the priest facing the same direction as the people (toward the altar and God) so he can lead the people in prayer, no lay participation on the altar, and usually, no responses by lay people.)
3. Ambrosian Rite (Only permitted in the Archdiocese of Milan)
4. Mozarabic Rite (Only permitted in the Cathedral of Toledo, Spain and a few surrounding churches of the diocese)
5. Bragan Rite (Only permitted in the Archdiocese of Braga, Portugal)
6. Anglican-Use Mass (This form was once only permitted in the extremely rare circumstance in which an Anglican priest converted to Catholicism and brings his entire parish with him. In that event, a parish could continue to use the Anglican liturgy, with corrections to make it conform with Catholic teachings. It was originally meant as a transitional liturgy, and upon the death of the pastor, the church would revert to the Ordinary Form. With the recent provisions announced by the Vatican to allow Anglicans into the Catholic Church and keep their traditions, it seems that the Anglican-Use will now become both far more widespread AND permanent.)

**Rites of Religious Orders **

1. Dominican Rite
2. Carthusian Rite
3. Carmelite Rite
4. Cisternian Rite

Note: Technically, the forms of the Latin liturgy listed above are NOT different rites, but variations of the SAME rite, although people do tend to commonly use the term somewhat erroneously in this context. The differences between the Latin “rites” are FAR less than those between the Latin liturgy and any of the Eastern Rites.)

**The Eastern Catholic Churches

1. Alexandrian liturgical tradition**
2. Coptic Catholic Church (patriarchate): Egypt (1741)
3. Ethiopian Catholic Church (metropolia): Ethiopia, Eritrea (1846)
   2. Antiochian (Antiochene or West-Syrian) liturgical tradition
4. Maronite Church (patriarchate): Lebanon, Cyprus, Jordan, Israel, Palestine, Egypt, Syria, Argentina, Brazil, United States, Australia, Canada, Mexico (union re-affirmed 1182)
5. Syriac Catholic Church (patriarchate): Lebanon, Iraq, Jordan, Kuwait, Palestine, Egypt, Sudan, Syria, Turkey, United States and Canada, Venezuela (1781)
6. Syro-Malankara Catholic Church (major archiepiscopate): India, United States (1930)
   3. Armenian liturgical tradition:
7. Armenian Catholic Church (patriarchate): Lebanon, Iran, Iraq, Egypt, Syria, Turkey, Jordan, Palestine, Ukraine, France, Greece, Latin America, Argentina, Romania, United States, Canada, Eastern Europe (1742)
   4. Chaldean or East Syrian liturgical tradition:
8. Chaldean Catholic Church (patriarchate): Iraq, Iran, Lebanon, Egypt, Syria, Turkey, United States (1692)
9. Syro-Malabar Church (major archiepiscopate): India, Middle East, Europe and America.
   5. Byzantine (Constantinopolitan) liturgical tradition:
10. Albanian Greek Catholic Church (apostolic administration): Albania (1628)
11. Belarusian Greek Catholic Church (no established hierarchy at present): Belarus (1596)
12. Bulgarian Greek Catholic Church (apostolic exarchate): Bulgaria (1861)
13. Byzantine Church of the Eparchy of Križevci (an eparchy and an apostolic exarchate): Croatia, Serbia and Montenegro (1611)
14. Greek Byzantine Catholic Church (two apostolic exarchates): Greece, Turkey (1829)
15. Hungarian Greek Catholic Church (an eparchy and an apostolic exarchate): Hungary (1646)
16. Italo-Albanian Catholic Church (two eparchies and a territorial abbacy): Italy (Never separated)
17. Macedonian Greek Catholic Church (an apostolic exarchate): Republic of Macedonia (1918)
18. Melkite Greek Catholic Church (patriarchate): Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Israel, Jerusalem, Brazil, United States, Canada, Mexico, Iraq, Egypt and Sudan, Kuwait, Australia, Venezuela, Argentina (1726)
19. Romanian Church United with Rome, Greek-Catholic (major archiepiscopate): Romania, United States (1697)
20. Russian Catholic Church: (two apostolic exarchates, at present with no published hierarchs): Russia, China (1905); currently about 20 parishes and communities scattered around the world, including five in Russia itself, answering to bishops of other jurisdictions
21. Ruthenian Catholic Church (a sui juris metropolia, an eparchy, and an apostolic exarchate): United States, Ukraine, Czech Republic (1646)
22. Slovak Greek Catholic Church (metropolia): Slovak Republic, Canada (1646)
23. Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church (major archiepiscopate): Ukraine, Poland, United States, Canada, Great Britain, Australia, Germany and Scandinavia, France, Brazil, Argentina (1595)

Thanks for this.

 

[dzheremi]

The following liturgies are used by the Eastern Catholic Churches:

• The Liturgy of St. Basil
• The Chaldean Mass
• The Order of the Divine and Holy Liturgy of Our Father Among the Saints Gregory the Theologian (or Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts)
• The Liturgy of St. James
• The Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom
• The Liturgy of St. Mark
• The Holy Qorbono

I’ve heard of most of these, but what is the “Liturgy of St. Mark”? I take it the Chaldean Mass is some sort of shorthand for the Liturgy of Mar Addai and Mar Mari (or some version of it), and the Holy Qurbono its West Syrian equivalent (though we call it the Liturgy of St. James already in the Orthodox Church, so I’m wondering how it’s different than that, since you already have the Liturgy of St. James up there separately). I don’t know. This list is confusing to me.

 

[Ignatius]

None. I am lucky if I can find a Latin Mass that is close enough to get to.

I didn’t realize that they don’t recognize Pope Benedict XVI’s authority. I wonder if that is true. I know they don’t recognize VaticanII.

You want to stay away from SSPX, they are in schism with The Catholic Church.

For Maronite, There is St. John Maron, at 300 South Flower Street, Orange, CA 92868.
There are also a Melkite and Ruthenian Bizantine parish near Anaheim.

If you want to go to the extraordinary form (Latin Mass) in full communion with The Catholic Church, you can go to San Secondo d’Asti 250 N. Turner Ave, Guasti, California, 91743; Website

 

[Rolltide]

You want to stay away from SSPX, they are in schism with The Catholic Church.

Actually, they are not technically in schism, but they have an extremely irregular status that is essentially schism in all but name, and their masses are not licit. Some of their sacraments, including confession, are currently invalid as well, which means they have no effect.

 

[Phyllo]

You want to stay away from SSPX, they are in schism with The Catholic Church.

For Maronite, There is St. John Maron, at 300 South Flower Street, Orange, CA 92868.
There are also a Melkite and Ruthenian Bizantine parish near Anaheim.

If you want to go to the extraordinary form (Latin Mass) in full communion with The Catholic Church, you can go to San Secondo d’Asti 250 N. Turner Ave, Guasti, California, 91743; Website

Thanks but I am on the other side of the country.

Actually, If I could find an SSPX chapel here that would be where I would go to Mass. As with the SSPX I am a Traditionalist and not happy with VatII and its modernism and its aftermath. I don’t know why they should be punished for wanting to remain true to the ways of the previous popes and Traditionalism prior to VatII.

What is the difference in the SSPX Latin Mass and the Latin Mass that the Pope is now “allowing” the priests (who are able) to say? They are the same Latin Mass. So what makes one licit and the other illicit? Not adhering to VatII?

Just my opinion of course.

 

[Rolltide]

Thanks but I am on the other side of the country.

Actually, If I could find an SSPX chapel here that would be where I would go to Mass. As with the SSPX I am a Traditionalist and not happy with VatII and its modernism and its aftermath. I don’t know why they should be punished for wanting to remain true to the ways of the previous popes and Traditionalism prior to VatII.

What is the difference in the SSPX Latin Mass and the Latin Mass that the Pope is now “allowing” the priests (who are able) to say? They are the same Latin Mass. So what makes one licit and the other illicit? Not adhering to VatII?

Just my opinion of course.

They are illicit because the four original bishops were suspended from public ministry, and then appointed other priests and bishops illicitly while under excommunication. The excommunications have now been lifted, but they are still suspended. So, no one in their seminaries was approved through the hierarchy of the church, so none of the new priests are being licitly ordained, and none of the priests should be saying Mass at all. This is in disobedience to the pope. It is not heresy, but it is an act of disobedience bordering on schism, similar (but not quite the same) as to the situation with the Orthodox Church. They also generally do not recognize the validity of Vatican II, which, despite objections, was a valid church council.

 

[theistgal]

I sense a bit of confusion here.

The SSPX is not a separate rite within the Church; it’s a breakaway protest group within the Latin Rite. Attending their Masses might be OK but may I suggest you ask a priest whose opinion you trust first? He might know of more licit Latin Masses in your area.

The Maronites are one of the Eastern rites of the Church and they are totally faithful to the Pope. All the Eastern Catholic rites are legitimate parts of the Church and are not in schism from the Pope or the Magisterium and you may attend ANY of their Masses or Divine Liturgies without worrying about the whole issue.

I would strongly suggest you try this as it’s a great way to find out just how catholic the Catholic Church really is!

 

[Denho]

Hi,

There are a lot of Catholic Rites. I practice the Roman Rite. I have a few questions:

1. Do all these different rites follow the Magisterium and are they recognized by the Pope?
2. Do they all follow Vatican II?
3. Do they all have licit Masses?
4. Why is the SSPX considered schismatic and not a Rite? As I understand they just don’t want to follow the pastoral suggestions of the council.

Thanks

People are not members of rites, but of Churches. Rites are liturgical expressions. Churches reflect the entire theological, spiritual, historical, and juridic patrimony of a particular ecclesial community (including a liturgical rite). It is important we make sure our vocabulary is precise when speaking of such things. Schism and centuries of strife and injury to the Body of Christ have occurred because of words (even down to one “iota” ) and we have learned that precision and correct understanding of positions can go a long way. As to the SSPX, they are members of the Roman Church, and their canonical situation is up to Roman authorities. They have little consequence to the Eastern Churches except for an affiliated group of Ukrainian priests who are inexorably wed to liturgical and spiritual bastardization of the Byzantine patrimony.

 

[Phyllo]

They are illicit because the four original bishops were suspended from public ministry, and then appointed other priests and bishops illicitly while under excommunication. The excommunications have now been lifted, but they are still suspended. So, no one in their seminaries was approved through the hierarchy of the church, so none of the new priests are being licitly ordained, and none of the priests should be saying Mass at all. This is in disobedience to the pope. It is not heresy, but it is an act of disobedience bordering on schism, similar (but not quite the same) as to the situation with the Orthodox Church. They also generally do not recognize the validity of Vatican II, which, despite objections, was a valid church council.

As I understand it the only difference in the SSPX is that they do not want to follow VatII. And as I understand it VatII was pastoral and nothing needed to be clanged in the parishes, but the bishops decided to have the NO Mass with exclusion of the Latin Mass and the SSPX I think objected to this. I think it is much ado about nothing. Now the Pope said that the Latin Mass can be said , 50 years too late,if the people in the parishes asked for it. Not so in my parish.

I much prefer the Catholic Church before VatII than after.

Again that is just me. I am sure that I am mostly alone in my opinion but that is ok too.

 

[Rich_C]

1. Ordinary Form (This is the form of the Mass that you will find in virtually every Latin Catholic Church almost every day of the week. This Mass has existed since the mid-1960s, ever since reforms were made following the Second Vatican Council.)

This post was quite literally awesome but to nitpick: the Ordinary Form was promulgated in late 1969 and implemented around 1970. From the close of Vatican II in 1965 until about 1970, Catholics prayed a third Mass not mentioned here, often called the Missal of 1965 which was essentially the Tridentine Mass with lots of vernacular and less reverent rubrics. Fun fact.

 

[PJM]

=Phyllo;9971988]Hi,

There are a lot of Catholic Rites. I practice the Roman Rite. I have a few questions:

1. Do all these different rites follow the Magisterium and are they recognized by the Pope?

1. Do they all follow Vatican II?

1. Do they all have licit Masses?

1. Why is the SSPX considered schismatic and not a Rite? As I understand they just don’t want to follow the pastoral suggestions of the council.

Thanks

Friend, I’m not clear on what you mean by “ALL” Please define further what you mean.

The SSPX 1. Do not accept ANY Pope from the beinging of Vatican II to the present times as “The Vicar of Christ” 2.They are in “Schism” with Rome and the Magisterium 3. They Do NOT accept anything as binding comming through Vatican II.

God Bless,
pat/PJM

 

[Phyllo]

Friend, I’m not clear on what you mean by “ALL” Please define further what you mean.

The SSPX 1. Do not accept ANY Pope from the beinging of Vatican II to the present times as “The Vicar of Christ” 2.They are in “Schism” with Rome and the Magisterium 3. They Do NOT accept anything as binding comming through Vatican II.

God Bless,
pat/PJM

Another poster said that there are 23 Catholic rites and I believe he said that they all have licit Masses as the SSPX Mass is considered illicit.

I personally don’t accept anything coming from VatII as binding either. But who am I?

 

[ConstantineTG]

Another poster said that there are 23 Catholic rites and I believe he said that they all have licit Masses as the SSPX Mass is considered illicit.

I personally don’t accept anything coming from VatII as binding either. But who am I?

There are 23 Catholic Churches. There is only 6 major Rites (Latin, Byzantine/Constantipolonian, Antiochian, Chaldean, Alexandrian and Armenian).

 

[Rich_C]

The SSPX 1. Do not accept ANY Pope from the beinging of Vatican II to the present times as “The Vicar of Christ”

That is frankly just not true. They have never denied that any pope is the pope, and their organization has always had a relationship with the papacy in some manner, even though it has often been a disobedient manner. Don’t confuse them with sedevacantists.