Catholic scholars urge pope to slow Pius sainthood

[JReducation]

If the letter sounded like NCR reports it, the scholars were respectful and are not denying the holiness of Pope Pius XII. They are doing what a good Catholic should do. They have a concern and they are communicating it and offering a solution, delay the Beatification.

It does not mean that their concern is right or wrong. I’m more impressed by their respectful tone. I wish that we would be as respectful when we are concerned. I’m also impressed by the fact that they offered an alternative. We tend to be critical without offering alternatives or solutions. Finaly, I’m impressed by the fact that they profess that they will accept what the Holy Father decides. They don’t sound angry or oppositional.

To me the tone of the letter is as important as the content. Had they made a case with anger and criticism without anything positive to say, then I would say that it’s nonsense. But to make their case in the tone that they SEEM to have made it, there’s no harm done.

I don’t even understand why this made the press. There are many letters that go back and forth between Rome and scholars and they don’t make the press.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[chosen_people]

In addition to Rabbi Dalin’s book I would encourage Catholic and Jew alike to read the book’The Last Three Popes and the Jews(Pius XI,Pius XII,and John XXIII) by Pinchas E. Lapide an Orthodox Rabbi.He wrote that Pius XII and those under his orders saved 860,000Jews,more than were saved by all other organizations combined.

Even my country dear saintly Canada in the person of then Prime Minister Mckenzie King spurned the Jews:

Prime Minister MacKenzie
King and Immigration
Director F.C. Blair kept
the number of Jewish
refugees small.
As the influence of Nazi-inspired hatred
threatened the Jewish communities of Europe,
Jews tried to head to safety in the United
States, Canada, Australia, and even Cuba.
Between 1933 and 1945,
less than 5000 Jews were
accepted into Canada.
Individual citizens, aid agencies and groups
tried to encourage the government to open its
borders to desperate Jewish refugees. Trying to
appeal to Canada’s economic interests,
companies like Canadian Pacific hand-selected
Jewish engineers for immigration. Skilled
professionals, particularly needed during the
war, applied to come to Canada. They were
almost universally rejected.
Jewish refugees were
placed in a special class.
Entry into Canada relied directly on the
Canadian cabinet. In spite of guarantees that
Canadian families would bear the financial
burdens, even schemes to allow orphans to
enter Canada were rejected.
The SS St. Louis, with
nearly 1000 refugees, was
turned away from
Canada.
On May 15, 1939, 907 German Jews left
Hamburg aboard the SS St. Louis with visas
allowing them to enter Cuba. But when they
arrived in Havana harbour, Cuba denied the
refugees entrance. The St. Louis was then
turned away from Panama, Argentina,
Colombia, Chile and Paraguay. Canada, the last
hope for the refugees aboard that ship, refused
them entry. The St. Louis sailed back to
Europe. Very few of the refugees survived the
Holocaust.

June 7, 1939: Prime Minister Mackenzie King turns away Jewish refugees on board the SS St. Louis.(Moment)
I am sick unto death of the lies and calumny heaped upon our Church and the Sainted Pius XII.

AS A canadian I am ashamed.As a Catholic I could not be prouder.Pius XII is already a Saint,but we must be brave enough to declare him so.Let the rest of the world including our elder brothers the Jews catch up!

This website contains further information concerning Canada’s actions concerning Jews at the time:
christianactionforisrael.org/antiholo/non2many.html - the quote “none is too many” refers to the Canadian reply to the number of Jews they would accept into Canada

 

[chosen_people]

In addition to Rabbi Dalin’s book I would encourage Catholic and Jew alike to read the book’The Last Three Popes and the Jews(Pius XI,Pius XII,and John XXIII) by Pinchas E. Lapide an Orthodox Rabbi.He wrote that Pius XII and those under his orders saved 860,000Jews,more than were saved by all other organizations combined.

Even my country dear saintly Canada in the person of then Prime Minister Mckenzie King spurned the Jews:

Prime Minister MacKenzie
King and Immigration
Director F.C. Blair kept
the number of Jewish
refugees small.
As the influence of Nazi-inspired hatred
threatened the Jewish communities of Europe,
Jews tried to head to safety in the United
States, Canada, Australia, and even Cuba.
Between 1933 and 1945,
less than 5000 Jews were
accepted into Canada.
Individual citizens, aid agencies and groups
tried to encourage the government to open its
borders to desperate Jewish refugees. Trying to
appeal to Canada’s economic interests,
companies like Canadian Pacific hand-selected
Jewish engineers for immigration. Skilled
professionals, particularly needed during the
war, applied to come to Canada. They were
almost universally rejected.
Jewish refugees were
placed in a special class.
Entry into Canada relied directly on the
Canadian cabinet. In spite of guarantees that
Canadian families would bear the financial
burdens, even schemes to allow orphans to
enter Canada were rejected.
The SS St. Louis, with
nearly 1000 refugees, was
turned away from
Canada.
On May 15, 1939, 907 German Jews left
Hamburg aboard the SS St. Louis with visas
allowing them to enter Cuba. But when they
arrived in Havana harbour, Cuba denied the
refugees entrance. The St. Louis was then
turned away from Panama, Argentina,
Colombia, Chile and Paraguay. Canada, the last
hope for the refugees aboard that ship, refused
them entry. The St. Louis sailed back to
Europe. Very few of the refugees survived the
Holocaust.

June 7, 1939: Prime Minister Mackenzie King turns away Jewish refugees on board the SS St. Louis.(Moment)
I am sick unto death of the lies and calumny heaped upon our Church and the Sainted Pius XII.

AS A canadian I am ashamed.As a Catholic I could not be prouder.Pius XII is already a Saint,but we must be brave enough to declare him so.Let the rest of the world including our elder brothers the Jews catch up!

This website contains further information concerning Canada’s actions concerning Jews at the time:
christianactionforisrael.org/antiholo/non2many.html - the quote “none is too many” refers to the Canadian reply to the number of Jews they would accept into Canada

 

[canadianguy1143]

I think its rude to place a great deal of emphasis on what a person says by how outward polite they are or respectful. Jesus certainly didn’t act respectful or polite when he overturned the money changer’s tables when he drove them out of the temple as they were defiling the temple with their practices.

I can’t take anything they say serious for many reasons:

1. If they are afraid of identifying themselves, then that speaks volumes about their integrity.
2. The refusal of addressing the excellent rebuttals that people have made in defense of Pope Pius XII says to me that they can’t refute it. If they can’t refute it, then its politics and aren’t we all sick of the politics?

 

[chosen_people]

The claim that the Catholic scholars wrote the letter anonymously or have withheld their names is patently untrue. Several of the names may be found in the various newspaper reports and of course all the names were signed to the letter.

 

[JReducation]

The fact that these “scholars” don’t reveal who they are speaks volumes about their credibility.

It’s the news that does not reveal who they are. The scholars signed the letter. It was not an anonymous letter. And as I said above, the letter was written very politely and did not bash either Pope Pius XII or Pope Benedict XVI. We may disagree with them on why the beatification should be delayed, but we have to acknowledge that they have a right to express a concern and make a suggestion, as long as they abide by the rules. There is no indication that they have not followed the proper protocol.

Had this letter been on any other subject we wouldn’t even know about it. This one was picked up by the news because of the subject matter. Theologians and Church Historians are in constant contact with the Holy See. Letters asking for things, making requests, expressing concerns go back and forth every day. That’s the job of the theologian, to research and to inform. It is the job of the Holy See to discern and make decisions.

The Church wants the (name removed by moderator)ut of the theologians. What she does not want is for them to go out and teach without her consent or teach what she has not approved as if it were a belief of the Church. But she does want their (name removed by moderator)ut. This has been done since the first century in the Church.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[redrosetea]

God will have the last word…If there are miracles …

 

[JReducation]

God will have the last word…If there are miracles …

We have to be clear with what was asked. The theologians are not saying that Pius should not be beatified or canonized. What they asked for was for the Holy Father to postpone the beatification until the archives are opened, for the sake of Jewish-Catholic relations. What they hope to find in the archives is the evidence that will calm down those who believe that Pius was indifferent or not aggressive enough.

If we notice, they are not calling into question his sanctity. They are concerned with producing the evidence to quiet down the mob. Even if there is a miracle, the pope can delay or cancel a beatification or canonization. This does not take anything away from the saint. A saint is a saint with or without a decree from the Church.

Some people (not you) are interpreting this letter as questioning Pius’ holiness. That’s not the intent. The intent is to protect the Jewish-Catholic dialogue.

Are they right? Will the dialogue suffer if Pius is beatified before the archives are opened? Who knows? It’s their conjecture and they have a right to share that with the pope. Others may beleive that it won’t make a dent in the dialogue. That’s their conjecture and they too have a right to share that with the pope. In the end, the pope will decide which argument has the highest merit and go with it. As always, those who “lost” will say that he made a mistake in doing it so fast, but they will accept the decree of canonization. It’s an infallible decree. An orthodox theologian can do nothing but accept it, even if he believes that the timing was wrong.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[redrosetea]

Jr I really don’t much care what people think…Those that want to argue will always find a reason

Those that want to be fair will say, well history before it was rewritten by the play the deputy, will understand

We will never convince some, nor change some minds, no matter what we do

I will leave it to the Holy Spirit to sort things out

 

[pnewton]

We have to be clear with what was asked. The theologians are not saying that Pius should not be beatified or canonized. What they asked for was for the Holy Father to postpone the beatification until the archives are opened, for the sake of Jewish-Catholic relations.

What archives?

If there is evidence that even might result in any issues being resolved, the should be examined. However, I saw nothing in the letter that hinted at any such evidence hithterto unknown. It has been 65 years. I do not see where greater time will make anything clearer. If these people who are top Catholic scholars have evidence, they should be heeded. However, it seemed to me as though all they wanted was time.

 

[Brickmaker]

What archives?

google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5goPgl2N-HNPwrqFuoZGiJf_hfHrw

The Vatican will soon make some of its World War II archives available for free on the Internet, the Holy See’s daily l’Osservatore Romano said on Monday.

The 8,000 pages of documents to be put online will however not include material directly relating to Pius XII, the wartime pope whose attitude towards the Holocaust has been the subject of controversy.

“We noted that the papacy of Pius XII during World War II has become a major cause of friction … ,” Gary Krupp, the head of the Pave the Way Foundation which led the move to digitalise the archives, was quoted saying.

The Vatican Library has already published the documents that will appear online, following an order from Pope Paul VI in 1964.

Material relating to Pius will not be published for another five or six years, the head of the Vatican secret archives Monsignor Sergio Pagano said last July.

 

[redrosetea]

The Vatican has miles of what they call secret archives…Secret only means private

 

[JReducation]

What archives?

If there is evidence that even might result in any issues being resolved, the should be examined. However, I saw nothing in the letter that hinted at any such evidence hithterto unknown. It has been 65 years. I do not see where greater time will make anything clearer. If these people who are top Catholic scholars have evidence, they should be heeded. However, it seemed to me as though all they wanted was time.

There were documents used at the hearings that supported that Pius XII did live a heroic and virtuous Christian life. In those documents there is information about his role to protect Jews and others from the Nazis. However, when the study was comleted and the recommendation for canonization was sent to the Holy Father, it was also suggested that these archives be locked away to protect them from damage until such time as they could be copied.

These are the archives to which the scholars are referring when they aske the Holy Father to wait until the archives were made available, as the Holy Father said they would be. The Holy Father agreed that the archives have to be protected from damaged, but agreed that they could be copied as long as they are not damaged. That is where things were left after October 2009.

The information in the archives is not new. It was already read and confirmed during the study of the cause for canonization. The documents that contain the information are not available at this time. That’s what the scholars are asking for, time for the documents to become public. So that everyone can see that what was said is actually on paper.

The documents are not going to reveal anything new. Personally, I believe that some people will not believe the documents if they were written and signed by Hitler and Pius XII themselves. But I do understand what they’re asking for.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[pnewton]

There were documents used at the hearings that supported that Pius XII did live a heroic and virtuous Christian life…

That seems reasonable. I do not know why this would involve slowing down, but in light of the emotional content of the era Venerable Pius XII represents, I can see why it would be beneficial to show why he is beatified, if he is. If this is not done before hand, it could be done as part of the beatification.

 

[JReducation]

That seems reasonable. I do not know why this would involve slowing down, but in light of the emotional content of the era Venerable Pius XII represents, I can see why it would be beneficial to show why he is beatified, if he is. If this is not done before hand, it could be done as part of the beatification.

I think that you have summed up what the scholars are saying. I put it this way, “We have these documents in the archive. They were used in the study of Pius’ life. We understand that they have to be protected and copies will be published later. Can we not wait for the publication before we proceed with beatification?”

In summary, that’s what they’re saying. Whether we agree that it will make a difference or not in the Jewish-Catholic dialogue is a matter of opinion. They believe that it will help. Not having read the documents, I don’t have an opinion one way or another. I just know what I said. Some people will not be convinced even if Hitler and Pius had co-signed the documents proving Pius’ positive role in WW II.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

CORNWELL, A committed Catholic and one-time candidate for the priesthood, aimed to prove Pius’s innocence. He was therefore allowed to peruse parts of the secret Vatican archives. Following exhaustive research, Cornwell recounted, “by the middle of 1997 I was in a state of moral shock. The material I had gathered amounted not to an exoneration but to an indictment… The evidence was explosive.”

Cornwell said it showed Pius “was patently, and by the proof of his own words, anti-Jewish. It revealed that he had helped Hitler to power and at the same time undermined potential Catholic resistance in Germany. It showed that he had implicitly denied and trivialized the Holocaust, despite having reliable knowledge of its true extent. And, worse, that he was a hypocrite, for after the war he had retrospectively taken undue credit for speaking out boldly against the Nazi persecution of the Jews.”

Indeed, postwar – obviously free of Fascist and Third Reich intimidation – Vatican City and extraterritorial buildings in Rome became protective semi-official asylums for numerous wanted war-criminals. The exodus to Arab destinations and the Americas of Nazis and their collaborators would have been impossible were the highest Vatican echelons genuinely faultless or clueless.

jpost.com/Opinion/Editorials/Article.aspx?id=169207

There are some pretty explosive claims here that ought to be dealt with. I don’t know what to believe about this but it certainly merits a closer look.

 

[JReducation]

jpost.com/Opinion/Editorials/Article.aspx?id=169207

There are some pretty explosive claims here that ought to be dealt with. I don’t know what to believe about this but it certainly merits a closer look.

I have no idea who this person is. But there is no closer look. Once the decree of venerable is made, it cannot be retracted. The decree affirms, without a doubt, that all the evidence presented by the Postulator of the Cause was enough to convince the Defender of the Faith that he (the Defender) had no reason to deny that Pius XII did not live a heroic Christian life.

In presenting these cases both sides, the Postulator and the Defender are allowed to bring anything to the table and anyone. Once their presentations are completed and the Cardinals vote the vote is sent to the Sacred Congregation for the Causes of the Saints.

The Sacred Congregation again looks at all the evidence presented and votes again. They have to vote unanimously, before they can present their recommendation to the pope.

The recommendation is then sent to the pope who can open all the documents again and ask as many questions as he wishes. Once he is satisfied, he send a letter back to the Sacred Congregation for the Causes of the Saints authorizing them to prepare a decree that the person in question did indeed lead a heroic and virtuous Christian life and that the studies of any alleged miracles can now begin.

At this point, there is no further study allowed on the person. That is closed. The studies now focus on alleged miracles. If the alleged miracle is proven true, then there is beatification. If there are two, there is canonization. However, the pope as Supreme Pontiff can wave the miracles and beatification. He can proceed to canonize, because canonization is an Ex-Cathedra right of the Pontiff to which all Catholics must submit.

The documents in the archives have already been examined by both the Postulator of the Cause and the Defender of the Faith and their respective teams… Then their findings were reviewed by the Sacred Congregation. Given such a detailed scrutiny, I would give much more credit to the conclusions of the Sacred Congregation and Pope Benedict than to those of a lone researcher.

You have to remember that in the first round of studies, the Defender of the Faith and Postulator bring in non-Catholics and non-believers to argue their case. The witnesses must be Catholic and non-Catholic.

In the end, if the pope chooses to canonize, then it is infallibly true that Pope Pius XII is in heaven and worthy of public veneration as a saint. There have been three cases where there was canonization without consultation: Francis of Assisi, Clare of Assisi and Anthony of Padua. They were never studies or beatified. The system was already in place at their time. But Pope Gregory IX and Honorius IV knew these people personally. They relied on what they knew and on their discernment to canonize them. In the canonization of St. Francis, Pope Gregory IX said, that he had heard the testimony of credible witnesses and that he was satisfied. There was no cross examination by the Devil’s Advocate as he was called before it was changed to the Defender of the Faith. The friars went to Rome, told their story and in 18 months, Francis was a saint, Clare in 11 months and Anthony in 11 months or less.

Ultimately, whatever is in the archives is not going to be decisive. It’s going to be the infallible authority of the pope who canonizes.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

I have no idea who this person is.

Here is information on the author and the book that the article mentions. Note particularly the criticisms of his work:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler’s_Pope

But there is no closer look. Once the decree of venerable is made, it cannot be retracted. The decree affirms, without a doubt, that all the evidence presented by the Postulator of the Cause was enough to convince the Defender of the Faith that he (the Defender) had no reason to deny that Pius XII did not live a heroic Christian life…At this point, there is no further study allowed on the person. That is closed…Ultimately, whatever is in the archives is not going to be decisive. It’s going to be the infallible authority of the pope who canonizes.

It would be a great shame if things went down this way.

A very serious accusation has been made and a number of people have come to believe it. Either there is an error in process or the accusers should be held to account. But if this proceeds as a purely Catholic decision then this issue will not be properly resolved.

The article, for example, claims that there is evidence which has not been made public. I have no idea what this is or what is the normal procedure but if it would resolve the question beyond Catholics, then it can’t be too difficult to take a scanner into the arcive and post digital copies of everything for everyone to review.

If those accusing Pius are in error, they should be made to eat crow.

 

[JReducation]

Here is information on the author and the book that the article mentions. Note particularly the criticisms of his work:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler’s_Pope

.

If wikipedia can be trusted, it also said this:

The author, himself, has since retracted his accusations in substantial part[3][7][8], saying that it is “impossible to judge the motives” of the Pope.[5][6] but that "Nevertheless, due to his ineffectual and diplomatic language in respect of the Nazis and the Jews, I still believe that it was incumbent on him to explain his failure to speak out after the war. This he never did."

The top posting is no longer valuable. The guy who wrote it has retracted it. He admits that the pope’s motives cannot be judged. He says that the pope was an ineffective diplomat.

Well that’s fine. No one is judged on his diplomatic abilities to determine his sanctity. St. Jerome was a bull in a China shop. He was rude, arrogant, mean, fowl mouthed and a saint.

St. Francis was a diplomat’s dipomat, but he was an administrative disaster. Our order would not have survied these 800 years were it not for the efforts of Bonaventure and Clare.

Saints are not judged on their academic or social skills. They are judged on their fidelity to the Gospel. I’m OK with canonizing a diplomatic bafoon. I don’t know that Pius XII was that, but if someone says he was, that does not take away from his sanctity.

The accusations are water under the bridge if he is canonized, because a canonization is an infallible statement. All we Catholics have to know is that he is in heaven.

It really does not affect anyone else, since no one else is going to celebrate a mass in his honor or going to light a candle to him, only Catholics. Whether he’s canonized or not is an internal concern that affects only Catholics or Orthodox who are the others who pray to saints and venerate them.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

The author, himself, has since retracted his accusations in substantial part[3][7][8], saying that it is “impossible to judge the motives” of the Pope.[5][6] but that "Nevertheless, due to his ineffectual and diplomatic language in respect of the Nazis and the Jews, I still believe that it was incumbent on him to explain his failure to speak out after the war. This he never did."

Yep, that’s the criticism I was referring to. But nevertheless there are those who are using his work to claim that Pius was a Nazi collaborator. That is an accusation that deserves scrutiny.

The accusations are water under the bridge if he is canonized, because a canonization is an infallible statement. All we Catholics have to know is that he is in heaven. It really does not affect anyone else, since no one else is going to celebrate a mass in his honor or going to light a candle to him, only Catholics. Whether he’s canonized or not is an internal concern that affects only Catholics or Orthodox who are the others who pray to saints and venerate them.

That is a rather parochial view of the matter. If Catholics simply canonize him and ignore the accusations then it will become fodder for anti-catholicism and damage the reputation of the Church.

If Pius is being libeled, then his libelers should be exposed. I’m not referrring to the accusation that Pius was insufficiently diplomatic to save Jews from the Holocaust but in the accusation that he was an active anti-semitic collaborator. Somebody is lying here.

What is the justification for enabling anti-catholic libel?