Catholic sins that do not break the golden rule

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kage_ar said:
Jesus said “I Am the Way, the Truth and the Life”.

Since Jesus IS the Truth, His Church holds the keys to that Truth.
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I see that you are a convert. Can I just ask if you were an evangelical before you converted?
 
wanner47 said:
And how do you know you are right? Or that you are interpreting God correctly?
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I don’t. But to be honest, I don’t think the church, the pope, or anyone really has any more authority than myself in the matter.
 
hellopeople said:
I do. In that context, masturbation would be hurting others. If your wife does not approve of masturbation, one should not do it. But, if you are not in a relationship, it is a different matter. So, you are right, in some contexts, masturbation does break the golden rule.
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Exactly - no one has demonstrated any inherent evil in masturbation; it’s just a matter of context. It’s like watching TV; a morally neutral activity in itself which can be done in an immoral way; for example, when someone spends so much time watching TV that he neglect his family or job.
 
hellopeople said:
I do. In that context, masturbation would be hurting others. If your wife does not approve of masturbation, one should not do it. But, if you are not in a relationship, it is a different matter. So, you are right, in some contexts, masturbation does break the golden rule.
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But masturbation hurts YOU even when you’re not in a relationship. As someone who used to indulge and has now largely conquered the sin, I know that it leads to an unhealthy and unnatural obsession with sex. It’s often accompanied either by pornography or at least pornographic fantasies that distort one’s view of sex away from what is healthy, reasonable and well-ordered. It can seriously impact on the health of current or future relationships - it did for relationships at the time I was doing it, for sure.

It’s taking something sacred, something meant as a communication of love between two people, and turning it into a solo activity, cheapening it to the level where it’s just like any other mindless thing that we do merely to relieve boredom or stress or whatnot.

Like building a 3-storey house entirely out of gold and then using it for your dog or pig to live in. You might say ‘if I pay for it myself, what’s the harm?’ The harm is that that one act is reflective of a wrong mindset, and you can betcha that someone that selfish and disordered in one particular is selfish and disordered in a whole bunch of other ways too.
 
LilyM said:
But masturbation hurts YOU even when you’re not in a relationship. As someone who used to indulge and has now largely conquered the sin, I know that it leads to an unhealthy and unnatural obsession with sex. It’s often accompanied either by pornography or at least pornographic fantasies that distort one’s view of sex away from what is healthy, reasonable and well-ordered. It can seriously impact on the health of current or future relationships - it did for relationships at the time I was doing it, for sure.

It’s taking something sacred, something meant as a communication of love between two people, and turning it into a solo activity, cheapening it to the level where it’s just like any other mindless thing that we do merely to relieve boredom or stress or whatnot.

Like building a 3-storey house entirely out of gold and then using it for your dog or pig to live in. You might say ‘if I pay for it myself, what’s the harm?’ The harm is that that one act is reflective of a wrong mindset, and you can betcha that someone that selfish and disordered in one particular is selfish and disordered in a whole bunch of other ways too.
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Your own evaluation of your personal experience is not proof of anything; it’s just an opinion.
 
hellopeople said:
I use my own logic, reason, and the good heart that God gave me to determine my morality.
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In other words, you are your own authority.

What if someone uses the same criteria (logic, reason, and good heart) to determine that masturbation (for example) is wrong? How do you know who is right?

Do you think that God can lead two different people to two opposite conclusions?
 
It’s not the sin itself, it’s the sinful nature that’s at original question here. If it were a mere matter of checks and balances, that would be easy, it’s clearly not, yet before, it required those due to the more limited understanding of the people’s. Do we throw them out, not necessarily, but they no longer hold the same weight when you compare it to entering into the new covenant.

By the new, it’s through God’s grace we are transformed from within, with the old, it had more to do the other way around. You then listen to Paul, and how he states along this line as for keeping control over ones own thoughts, and this makes good sense, and we know, he’s simply telling you what Christ taught him originally. Ultimately, it’s up to you as to what you choose to view, and have around you, at least part of your day. What we do in this area counts for a lot, yet we all know, the world is still out there, working on it’s own, working in the manner we ourselves have died to. In this way though, we are showing the light in the darkness.
I
 
TedDC said:
Your own evaluation of your personal experience is not proof of anything; it’s just an opinion.
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It’s more than personal experience - it’s observational evidence. Evidence which adds weight to the truth of the Church’s claim that masturbation is wrong in every circumstance.

Put it this way - the AMA teaches that we shouldn’t abuse alcohol because among other things it has numerous bad effects on our health. If someone comes along and says ‘yes, I was an alcoholic and can tell you that I DID, as a direct result of my misuse of alcohol, suffer horrible health effects, namely xyz’ then it adds an amount of weight to the claims of the AMA, no?

Isn’t that one of the ways that science works? Someone comes up with a theory - such as Galileo his theory that the earth revolves around the sun - and proves it at least in part by gathering observational evidence. Galileo says ‘well, a planet that revolves around the sun would behave in x y and z ways. We can observe that the Earth DOES behave in x y and z ways, so that’s evidence in favour of my theory being correct’.
 
hellopeople (if that is your real name) i want to ask, what kind of catholic books have you read? like what are your sources of information on the Catholic church and it’s teachings?
i don’t know much about you…but i thought this might help me understand alittle more of where your coming from with all these questions…well, maybe, maybe not, but i thought i’d ask.
 
hellopeople said:
Who has the authority to say something is a sin though? Many would say the church, but I will not accept something JUST because the church says it. I must rationally deduce it.
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The Church would agree that we not accept something just because the church says so. The Catechism even specifies that one shouldn not be compelled to act against his conscience.
1782 Man has the right to act in conscience and in freedom so as personally to make moral decisions. “He must not be forced to act contrary to his conscience. Nor must he be prevented from acting according to his conscience, especially in religious matters.”

However, inherent in that is the Idea that the conscience be properly formed.
1783 Conscience must be informed and moral judgment enlightened. A well-formed conscience is upright and truthful. It formulates its judgments according to reason, in conformity with the true good willed by the wisdom of the Creator. The education of conscience is indispensable for human beings who are subjected to negative influences and tempted by sin to prefer their own judgment and to reject authoritative teachings.

MORE HERE

So - While we are free to act upon our conscience such action must be taken only after carefully forming the conscience in The Faith. That is in God’s Truth as revealed throughHis Church. Only then can the conscience make proper moral judgements related to given specific instances and circumstances.
As an example, The Church teaches that abortion is an intrinsic evil. It is always wrong. Yet there are instances where the mother’s life is in danger and the prescibed treatments will most likely result in the loss of the Child. In such instances, an informed conscience, taking into account the various teachings and concerns and after prayerful reflection can make an informed decision on what action is appropriate to take in the particular instance.

So - when considering the position of the Church on the various teachings. It is critical to have researched and understood the reasoning behind the teachings before. Until such research is completed it is best, and necessary to default to the teaching of the Church rather than to our own, improperly formed, conscience.

Peace
James
 
hellopeople said:
I am going to list a bunch of things that are “grave matters” according to the church that do not break the golden rule. Please add to them if you would like.

Homosexual actions
Masturbation
Condom use
Any ceremonial obligation (confession, eucharist, etc)

So, if these things do not go against the greatest commandment, why are they grave matters?
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First, these are moral evils; not necessarily sins in Catholic thinking. That is, their effects on the actor and/or others are always and everywhere evil – a retardation to the intimate relationship we all seek with our Creator.

Catholics believe our ultimate purpose in life is to achieve unity with our Creator. In the course of a lifetime with God’s grace we transform ourselves from being self-centered to other-oriented. Acts which diminish, retard or reverse that transformation are grave matter.
 
wanner47 said:
In other words, you are your own authority.

What if someone uses the same criteria (logic, reason, and good heart) to determine that masturbation (for example) is wrong? How do you know who is right?

Do you think that God can lead two different people to two opposite conclusions?
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Obviously God can lead two different people to opposite conclusions. Many church leaders and Biblical interpreters have come to different conclusions about the Bible. How else would you explain it? To be honest, I think that when people cannot come to a consensus on something, it likely is not that important in the eyes of God.

Also, I did not say that masturbation was right, but I do believe that it is not a grave matter. In my eyes, it is similar to overeating or something of that nature.
 
LilyM said:
It’s more than personal experience - it’s observational evidence. Evidence which adds weight to the truth of the Church’s claim that masturbation is wrong in every circumstance.

Put it this way - the AMA teaches that we shouldn’t abuse alcohol because among other things it has numerous bad effects on our health. If someone comes along and says ‘yes, I was an alcoholic and can tell you that I DID, as a direct result of my misuse of alcohol, suffer horrible health effects, namely xyz’ then it adds an amount of weight to the claims of the AMA, no?

Isn’t that one of the ways that science works? Someone comes up with a theory - such as Galileo his theory that the earth revolves around the sun - and proves it at least in part by gathering observational evidence. Galileo says ‘well, a planet that revolves around the sun would behave in x y and z ways. We can observe that the Earth DOES behave in x y and z ways, so that’s evidence in favour of my theory being correct’.
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The detrimental health effects of alcohol can actually be measured though. The effect masturbation has on one’s psyche cannot. In some people, it can lead to an impure mind, but this is not true for everyone.

On a side note, it was Copernicus that came up with the earth revolving around the sun.
 
EmeraldWings said:
hellopeople (if that is your real name) i want to ask, what kind of catholic books have you read? like what are your sources of information on the Catholic church and it’s teachings?
i don’t know much about you…but i thought this might help me understand alittle more of where your coming from with all these questions…well, maybe, maybe not, but i thought i’d ask.
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I haven’t read any Catholic books. I did go to a Catholic grammar school and high school though.
 
hellopeople said:
Obviously God can lead two different people to opposite conclusions. Many church leaders and Biblical interpreters have come to different conclusions about the Bible. How else would you explain it? To be honest, I think that when people cannot come to a consensus on something, it likely is not that important in the eyes of God.
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By that logic, NOTHING is important in the eyes of God. There are self-proclaimed Christians who deny the divinity of Christ, for example. Wouldn’t you think that’d be a fairly important issue?

Or what about abortion? Surely you don’t think that the lives of innocent human children “aren’t that important” to God?

Personally, I can’t think of a single issue, save perhaps the existence of God, in which 100% of Christians wholly agree. 🤷

Given that both Jesus and St. Paul speak very strongly about unity AND respecting authority, I’m curious as to the Biblical basis of your philosophy that issues “aren’t important” to God unless everyone agrees on them.
 
hellopeople said:
I am going to list a bunch of things that are “grave matters” according to the church that do not break the golden rule. Please add to them if you would like.

Homosexual actions
Masturbation
Condom use
Any ceremonial obligation (confession, eucharist, etc)

So, if these things do not go against the greatest commandment, why are they grave matters?
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I appreciate your various responses to the posts here on this thread, but I would also suggest that you take some time to consider the error that you have in your original post.

You declare “The Golden Rule” to be the greatest commandment. Several folks, including myself, have been kind enough to show to you, that you are in error - based on Jesus own words - on this very clear and very basic biblical truth.

So - considering that you are clearly in error on this very basic and obvious Biblical fact, how is it that you think you are not in error in these other areas?

I suggest that you might need to rethink where you are spiritually. I also feel that I have the right to make this suggestion since I was once where you are now.

Peace
James
 
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