"Catholic social teaching finds Church teaching lacking." by Bishop Dowling
- Status
C
CMatt25
Guest
God knows the heart so indeed I certainly don’t judge there won’t be someone in heaven who wore a cappa magna next to someone who wore cargos next to someone who wore flip flops to Mass.I can’t speak for the Church, but I believe you are free to hold that opinion. However, I don’t believe it has any bearing on on anyone’s salvation. What I would recommend, if it is a big concern for you, is to take a vow of poverty yourself. This is what St Francis did (not the poster…the saint), so I’m certain there is good precedence for that.
R
rlg94086
Guest
I’m not sure. Since tpw starts out with “Speaking from a South African perspective which I suspect none of us on this thread knows the least about,” so I’m assuming tpw doesn’t know either.
R
rlg94086
Guest
Okay then, I guess there is no reason for you to continue complaining about cappa magnas in that case.
T
Tantum_ergo
Guest
No matter how much you talk about men getting pregnant, it’s not going to happen. How helpful is it to men–or women-- and to their children–to endlessly discuss how great it will be when men get pregnant?I have to disagree with your comments. You’ve simply read your prejudices into what Bishop Dowling was talking about and in the process ignored what the entire article is really all about. Interesting that ‘disagreement’ when it comes from YOU is purposeful and informative; disagreement from those who disagree with the Bishop shows PREJUDICE and IGNORANCE.
Speaking from a South African perspective which I suspect none of us on this thread knows the least about, he rails against centralized authority that is so rigid that local churches (i.e. national synods) aren’t given enough freedom . . .One man’s ‘rigid’ is another man’s ‘firm foundation’. Catholic social teaching doesn’t ‘stand on its own’.
It’s viritually impossible for people in this country to grasp what issues are of significant concern in other countries. I suppose that’s because we’re so ignorant.That’s what Catholic social teaching is there for - to provide the local church with the means to read the signs of the time in their context. Because naturally, local churches need to be able to contravene the ‘core’ teaching if it doesn’t mesh with the current social needs or views of its local people. The Church has to ‘change’ to adjust itself to the people — heaven forbid that the people need to change to adjust to the Church!
His introductory comments are intended to call into question a form of traditionalism that fails to recognize the tremendous damage done in many countries by the sex abuse scandal. How in God’s name are you dragging ‘traditionalism’ into the sex scandal? Unfortunately, the bishops in many countries lost all kinds of moral credibility because of it. So? You mean that unless a bishop can APPEAR to be sinless, he can’t have authority? To pretend that wearing elaborate liturigcal vestments will translate into authentic worship is absurd - that’s his point. But nobody is arguing that the reason one wears ‘elaborate vestments’ CAUSES authentic worship. If people erect strawmen to bash down, shouldn’t we point that out?
Another thread on this post seems to discount what young adults are searching for. On one hand Dowling speaks of his pastoral experience in Europe where young, well-educated adults are profoundly aware of grave injustices in the world and all us older people aren’t. Yeah. And only young and well eduated people are profoundly aware of grave injustice. . And since when are liturgical vestments ‘dismissive’ of social concerns?
His comments re: the prohibition of discussion by the Vatican of topics like married clergy The Church does have married clergy in certain rites or the ordination of women The Church has NO AUTHORITY TO ORDAIN WOMEN ANYMORE THAN IT HAS TO CONFECT BEER AND PRETZELS AS THE EUCHARISTwere intended as examples of where there has been a reactionary backlash in the church starting from the Roman curia who are apparently unable or unwilling to listen. Because ‘listening’ somehow means ‘agreeing’. If you don’t agree with someone on something, you aren’t disagreeing, you aren’t LISTENING. I see. Somehow some in the curia believe that talking about such things is going to stop people from discussing them. It’s as one person observed “the battered wives syndrome”…beat somebody down long enough to silence them and then pretend there is no problems. Yep, first they’re pedophiles, then they cover up, and now they’re out to batter women. Guilt by association.
For those on this thread who dismiss such concerns that he raises then you are challenged to offer a way of drawing a wide group of people - young adults - into the church. Wearing elaborate liturgical garments is hardly appealing on any score. Funny how so many young seem to be flocking to the TLM where the vestments are more elaborate than most–and how the dioceses where more traditional practices (including vestments) are in place ARE THE ONES HAVING HIGHER NUMBERS OF THOSE SEEKING THE PRIESTHOOD AND RELIGIOUS VOCATIONS.
Re: rags - hmmm - one of the few persons to recieve a stigmata Francis of Assisi was not known to concern himself with elaborate liturgical dress. You know who ELSE had the stigmata? PADRE PIO. WHO WORE ELABORATE VESTMENTS AT MASS and was concerned with modest dress in women., , , it wouldn’t be the first time that weathly donors tried to control the church and undermine its’ spiritual and moral leadership) does very little to lead a person to authentic holiness. Yes, how lovely to speculate on the way another person must have been totally VENAL to offer something to God.
. It would help if the bishop actually refrained from throwing gasoline on the fire.
Marriages on the rocks don’t suddenly fix themselves when the couple involved don’t talk to each other. Bumpy roads in the life of the church aren’t going to disappear because significant matters are no longer talked about either.
T
Tigg
Guest
You have hit upon a very important point. Why do we do this? Why are we so petty when giving the honor and glory and worship to God that is without question HIS due and our first obligation to Him? For that matter, why do we now, through the “social justice teaching of the day,” (please note quotes and accompanying sarcasm) idolize the poor and place them upon a pedestal as if they were virtuous only because they are poor?
R
rlg94086
Guest
It’s not about “honor and glory and worship” apparently. It is about showing up in cargos and flip flops to hang out with our buddy, the Lord, and have some fast food.
C
CMatt25
Guest
Ok so good. Then you or Tantum won’t be disturbed next Sunday if someone comes in and flops down beside of you in shabby clothes or in nice clean cargos or in flip flops and they won’t keep you from focusing on Him. The same as when I go to Mass I can worship Him regardless of what the priest has on.It’s interesting that you would compare your “nice clean cargos” to “a person in shabby clothes.” If the best clothes someone has to wear are “shabby,” then they shouldn’t be judged. However, by showing up to Mass in your “nice clean cargos,” it is equivalent to showing up to a wedding in your “nice clean cargos.” Would you do that? Would you tell the bridegroom, “don’t judge me?”
The question is not “what are you wearing?” Rather, it is “why are you wearing what you wear?”
btw…why are you allowed to judge our priests/bishops on their garments, but no one is allowed to judge you based on your garments? Seems like a double standard to me.
I’ve already discussed what I have worn to a wedding on another thread.
And I’m not judging anyone’s heart by what they wear. I’m not as monetarily wealthy as the Church. I’m merely saying the Church has over done it with appearances and at some expense to the poor. That’s my belief. You can have yours. We can agree to disagree. Peace.
T
Tantum_ergo
Guest
Then prove it, Matt.
You believe the Church has 'overdone it with appearances at some expense to the poor.'
**PROVE IT. **
**Show us exactly what has been ‘overdone’ by the Church with appearances and exactly how it has been at the expense of the poor. **
**How the cappa magna of Bishop DiLorenzo, say, has come about at the expense of the poor in Virginia. **
**Primary sources, please. **
T
Tantum_ergo
Guest
Oh, and Matt, make **sure you post exactly how ‘monetarily wealthy’ the Church is. **
R
rlg94086
Guest
I didn’t say I agree with you, so you are making a huge assumption. I will find it disturbing if someone is inappropriately dressed to Mass, and I know they have the wherewithall to dress properly. However, I don’t let such embarrasingly uncouth actions by others take my focus off of the Lord.
Recently, at a daily Mass, a woman showed up in her bathrobe. She was obviously distressed, and parishioners offered help and attended to her. She wasn’t judged.
S
St_Francis
Guest
From this comment of Matt’s:
Ok but just be sure to let me know when a sinless priest ascends into heaven during Mass. That’s my pt.
C
CMatt25
Guest
Tantum, I presented verses but they didn’t satisfy you. See you can’t truly prove faith. Peace in yours Tantum. God bless!
C
CMatt25
Guest
Well someone said the priest acts in place of Christ. So I was just trying to see how good an actor he was.
S
St_Francis
Guest
Well, having seen the brilliance of those in the Church, I am humbly grateful for their guidance and do my best to follow the Church. I admit that sometimes I have struggled over certain teachings but through prayer and study God allowed me to see clearly.
One of the interesting things about the Church as compared to so much else I have run into in my life is the balance. The Church looks out not only for the material well-being of those in need but the spiritual well-being of all. And there is a balance there, maybe not always perfectly maintained, but overall, yes, balanced.
There are those for whom concern for the liturgy or the state of this or that within the Church overwhelms the message from the Church wrt social justice.
And there are those for whom the message of social justice is so overwhelming that they neglect the moral and spiritual teachings (not saying you are one, I have no clue).
S
St_Francis
Guest
These" humorous" little quips of yours serve only to confuse others who may not be as clear as you are regarding the teaching of in persona Christi.Well someone said the priest acts in place of Christ. So I was just trying to see how good an actor he was.
T
Tantum_ergo
Guest
Um, Matt, with respect, ‘verses’ do not prove your belief.
You said, quite specifically, that you believed that the Church has ‘overdone it with appearances’ at some expense to the poor.
Now Matt, if you believe that, prove it.
Show us exactly how the Church has overdone it at some expense to the poor.
Or admit that your ‘belief’ can’t be proven.
That has nothing to do with your FAITH Matt.
**Your personal (and erroneous belief) that the Church has somehow ‘denied the poor’ while ‘overdoing appearances’ is a belief of OPINION, Matt, it is not your ‘faith’. **
So prove your ‘belief’ or admit that you only ‘feel’ this way but have absolutely no ‘proof’ to back up your belief.
U
utah_rose
Guest
But not to the extent of ignoring issues like abortion and same sex marriage. Abortion particularly is not an option, as the Pope has pointed out, where some of the social teachings of a particular bishop may be only his opinion, and not of the whole group.Social justice was afterall a particularly large aspect of Christ’s teachings along with love and peace. NCR must be mimicking Christ’s emphasis on social justice then, Tantum. He taught us a way on how to express our love for Him in righteousness in Matt 25:35-46. Basically He said if you are attentive to the social justice issues, you serve Him and shall have eternal life.
Peace.
Personally, I’m looking for a bishop to be responsible to his sheep and excommunicate those who advocate same sex marriage and particularly abortion.
Immigration does need to be addressed, but the millions of babies that are being aborted EACH DAY needs to be dealt with first.
U
utah_rose
Guest
And if this is what the bishop said he should AT THE LEAST BE reprimanded AND if he really believes this nonsense he himself is committing heresy and also putting the souls of his diocese in peril.
C
CMatt25
Guest
St Francis, I deleted the post because the priest is believed to be reinacting Christ in the Last Supper for instance so not to confuse. But glad you saw my humor. Peace.
- Status