Catholic Soteriology:Heresy?

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In my reading of the Gospel’s I see no case made for the need of good works in themselves, as part of meriting salvation. I think Catholic Soteriology is a grave misunderstanding of the Gospel, one that is so dangerous I struggle with calling it heresy from time to time. I don’t want people to think that I don’t believe Catholics can be Christian’s, I hope with all my heart they can for my families sake. However, I see no case fore the doctrine which Catholics hold on the matter. So please enlighten me, so that I may better understand where you all are coming from.
 
Insignificant said:
In my reading of the Gospel’s I see no case made for the need of good works in themselves, as part of meriting salvation. I think Catholic Soteriology is a grave misunderstanding of the Gospel…
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Speaking of “grave misunderstandings”, the Church doesn’t teach that good works in themselves are meritorious at all. They require grace to be efficacious. Viz. the canons on justification at the Council of Trent.
 
Insignificant said:
In my reading of the Gospel’s I see no case made for the need of good works in themselves, as part of meriting salvation. I think Catholic Soteriology is a grave misunderstanding of the Gospel, one that is so dangerous I struggle with calling it heresy from time to time. I don’t want people to think that I don’t believe Catholics can be Christian’s, I hope with all my heart they can for my families sake. However, I see no case fore the doctrine which Catholics hold on the matter. So please enlighten me, so that I may better understand where you all are coming from.
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Jesus was all about works.
The Sermon on the Mount is one of the strongest cases for this (Matt ch5-ch7).
Also there are other clear teachings like Mark 10:17-30.

I hope this isnt a scandal to you but in my opinion its Protestants who ignore what Jesus really said, He never taught faith alone, it was always action, especially love, that was the deciding factor. Infact Jesus explicitly said stuff like this to his followers “if you love Me keep My commandments”.
 
James 2:14-26
What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? Can faith save him? If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, and one of you say unto them, “Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled;” notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, “Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.” Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Matthew 19:16-21
And, behold, one came and said unto him, “Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?” And he said unto him, “Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.” He saith unto him, “Which?” Jesus said, “thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.” The young man saith unto him, “All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?” Jesus said unto him, “If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.”

Matthew 7:21
Not every one that saith unto me, “Lord, Lord,” shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

1 John 2:3-4
And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, “I know him,” and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Revelations 22:12
And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

2 Corinthians 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
 
My dear Insignificent,

Please tell me: How is it that Faith is made manifest for others to see, in your opinion?
 
Catholicism doesn’t teach salvation “by works.”
Salvation, meaning the giving of the indwelling Holy Spirit and sanctifying grace, is a free gift of God given normatively at baptism.

However, we are saved unto a life of good works.
Jesus never taught “once saved, always saved,” and no Christian anywhere in the world believed in such a thing for the first 1500 years of Christianity, including those taught directly by the Apostles themselves.

Good works are necessary. Without them, you will become lax in your spiritual and moral life, which will lead to a lack of prayer, followed by, most likely, falling into deadly sin.

Good works done by a person filled with the Holy Spirit are meritorious in the eyes of God. Your ‘reward’ in heaven will be in part due to the good works you have done while in the state of Grace, for grace upon grace is given to a person who does good works.

But no, nobody on earth can merit the grace of the gift of the saving Holy Spirit. That is given freely by God.
 
I do understand what you’re saying about good works. According to James these along with faith justify us. But justification and salvation are not the same thing.

I disagree on this though: Jesus did teach once saved always saved. So did Paul, Peter and John. Check out John 3:16 for starters ok? There are many more verses but I’m in a hurry. I’ll be glad to find more later though if you aren’t able to.
 
I’m sorry, but once saved, always saved,
was unheard of by ANY Christian ANYWHERE in the world until Luther and Calvin thought it up by their private interpretation of the scriptures in the 16th century.
NO early Christians believed this and they explicitly believed that Christians by deadly sin could lose their salvation.
I refuse to believe that the Holy Spirit waited until the 16th Century to reveal the truth of this matter, and then revealed it
through the foul-mouthed Martin Luther and through John Calvin, who (prior to his Reformer days) had been arrested on a sodomy charge in his hometown, and escaped prosecution because his influential father went to bat for him.

If this belief were true, it would have been explicitly held and taught by at least a portion of Christians from the first century down to the sixteenth. There would have been debates about it all along. There was nothing. Nobody believed this, clergy, laity, theologians, nada.

God bless,
Jaypeeto3 (aka Jaypeeto4)
 
hoosierdaddy said:
I do understand what you’re saying about good works. According to James these along with faith justify us. But justification and salvation are not the same thing.
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Not so… Matthew 25:31-46 shows that works are teh basis for our judgement.
I disagree on this though: Jesus did teach once saved always saved. So did Paul, Peter and John. Check out John 3:16 for starters ok? There are many more verses but I’m in a hurry. I’ll be glad to find more later though if you aren’t able to.
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This is also wishful thinking.
Revelation 3:5
5: He who conquers shall be clad thus in white garments, and I will not blot his name out of the book of life; I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels

Name has to be in the book of life to be blotted out.
Dowload this MP3 Bible study and listen to it. 🙂
Pax tecum,
 
I read the gospels and can’t understand the faith alone soteriology. There are so many parables such as the talents fig tree, the unmerciful servant and many more that show how God judges us on our works.

Not to mention in Revelations 20 where john is relaying a vision of judgement of mankind and he says:
Rev20:12
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“The dead were judged according to their deeds, by what was written in the scrolls.”

The second half of the parable of the goats and sheep…
Matthew25:41-46
Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’ Then they will answer and say, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’
He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’ And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
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An important point is that even the goats called him “LORD!”. yet they were thrown into the eternal fire for not doing the works of the lord.
Matthew7:21-24
"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?’ Then I will declare to them solemnly, ‘I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers.’ "Everyone who listens to these words of mine and acts on them will be like a wise man who built his house on rock.
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God Bless you
 
Thanks for clearing it up, well a little anyway. I just think the difference is I think Catholics try to seperate works from faith. works are the proving of the faith that is given by God. I believe works are necesarry for salvation, but not that we are saved by our works as if they merited anything, but because they are evidence of grace, taking the form of faith. I always thought that Catholics held that Christ death covered most of your sins, but you had to do enough good works to have enough merit to get into heaven, or you went into purgatory. It is true i know less about Catholic theology than I like, and growing up in the Catholic church that i did didnt help much either. But see the part that doesn’t sit right with me is the whole purgatory idea. It just seems to much like earning your way, beyond what Christ did, to heaven. And the once saved always saved idea, is in my estimation true, but very poorly articulated by that slogan, and many of my fellow evangelicals. So for further explanations if someone could please further articulate what catholics believe in regard to the role of good works in soteriology, and the role of purgatory. I just don’t see the point in purgatory if Christ died for all of the sins the elect would ever commit. Please be clear for many reasons. Most of all because i am simple and secondly, if I am wrong; i wish to quickly correct my self from err and offending catholics whom i know and care about.
 
Jaypeeto3 said:
Catholicism doesn’t teach salvation "by works."Salvation, meaning the giving of the indwelling Holy Spirit and sanctifying grace, is a free gift of God given normatively at baptism.

However, we are saved unto a life of good works.
Jesus never taught “once saved, always saved,” and no Christian anywhere in the world believed in such a thing for the first 1500 years of Christianity, including those taught directly by the Apostles themselves.

Good works are necessary. Without them, you will become lax in your spiritual and moral life, which will lead to a lack of prayer, followed by, most likely, falling into deadly sin.

Good works done by a person filled with the Holy Spirit are meritorious in the eyes of God. Your ‘reward’ in heaven will be in part due to the good works you have done while in the state of Grace, for grace upon grace is given to a person who does good works.

But no, nobody on earth can merit the grace of the gift of the saving Holy Spirit. That is given freely by God.
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Roman Catholicism teaches salvation by Faith and Works. A false gospel. Works and Grace(unmerited favor) cannot mix. Works allows the person to boast - “but not before God”. Salvation is by Faith Alone.

Rom 4:1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? 2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about–but not before God. 3 What does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” 4 **Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. 5 However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. **

Rom 4:23 The words “it was credited to him” were written not for him alone, 24 but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness–for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead.

Works even done if Faith do not MERIT justification. Works are the result of Salvation, not the requirements for Salvation.

Paul in Ephesians states the correct relationship between Faith and Works.
Eph 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this not from yourselves, **it is the gift of God-- 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. **10 For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Works are one of the signs of a believer. If you say you are a believer and have no works that can be seen, you are not justified in saying so in the sight of others. If we say we believe and HAVE the fruit of the spirit we are justified in saying we have a saving faith. (basically what James is saying)
 
Good works are not part of meriting salvation, but part of accepting salvation.

Answer me one question. In the 50 or 60 years that a typical person might live as a Christian (after their conversion), if that person did no good works in those 50 or 60 years, would that person end up in heaven?
 
kaycee said:
Works even done if Faith do not MERIT justification. Works are the result of Salvation, not the requirements for Salvation.
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Why is this an either/or situation? Why can’t works both be the result of salvation and requirements for salvation?
 
Also to the charge of sodomy against Calvin, something i have never heard before. But even if true the charge was in his youth, ones past does not remove hime from the transforming power of the Trinity. The apostle Paul is a great example of this. Also, one must look at a man’s work based on what it says, not on who the man was. that is called ab hominum(sp) I wholly believe that we ought to judge a tree by its fruit, but none the less we should not cancel a man’s work for his mistakes in the past. Anyway, if we did, wouldn’t we also have to through out the majority of the work by the popes in Church history.
 
Insignificant said:
In my reading of the Gospel’s I see no case made for the need of good works in themselves, as part of meriting salvation. I think Catholic Soteriology is a grave misunderstanding of the Gospel, one that is so dangerous I struggle with calling it heresy from time to time. I don’t want people to think that I don’t believe Catholics can be Christian’s, I hope with all my heart they can for my families sake. However, I see no case fore the doctrine which Catholics hold on the matter. So please enlighten me, so that I may better understand where you all are coming from.
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Something that I never get an answer to is, what difference does it make? How does the life of a Protestant, believing what you believe on this issue, differ from the life of a Catholic, believing what the Church teaches on this issue, in any salvation-affecting way?

Let me put the question this way. Suppose there is Protestant Bob and Catholic Bill, and suppose they perform identical good works over their lifetimes, and commit identical sins. All that is different is what they believe and how they worship. Will Bob end up in heaven while Bill ends up in hell because Bob believed the right thing and Bill believed the wrong thing?
 
hoosierdaddy said:
I do understand what you’re saying about good works. According to James these along with faith justify us. But justification and salvation are not the same thing.

I disagree on this though: Jesus did teach once saved always saved. So did Paul, Peter and John. Check out John 3:16 for starters ok? There are many more verses but I’m in a hurry. I’ll be glad to find more later though if you aren’t able to.
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John 15 teaches the complete opposite. A branch can only be a branch if it is part of the vine. If it’s not part of the vine, then it was never a branch to begin with. Jesus clearly states that any “branch in ME” that does not bear fruit the Father takes away. It also says that a person does not abide (i.e. remain) in Christ (the Vine), he is cast of, withers (spiritual death) and thrown into the fire (eternal damnation). If they were never saved to begin with, then they would never have been in the Vine and hence would never be considered a branch. What is the standard use to determine if someone remaines incorporated to the Vine, besides faith? BEARING FRUIT. Bearing fruit means doing good works (keeping the commandments and works of charity). The works of the Christians are the fruits of agape love and this agape love is, in turn, a fruit of the Holy Spirit which, in turn, is the benefit of being FREELY incorporated into Christ (i.e. justification)
by grace. Truly righteous deeds pleasing to God must occur AFTER one has been justified.

God Bless,
Michael
 
If bill believed that some how becuase of his merit he was in heaven, he at all earned his way their, I would say he would be condemned to hell, because he has not accepted salvation offered through Christ entirely. Which is what the Gospel calls for.
 
As For the Question on Purgatory

It is is extremely misunderstood by non-Catholic, I will try to clear it up.

Purgatory is a state of Cleansing prior to heaven, and all in Purgatory will get into heaven. As John said Some sins are mortal and some are not, Paul in 1 Cor. said that some are to be saved but only after being in fire, Jesus’ parable about the being thrown into Jail and not being released until the last Penny is payed, and In the last portion of Revelations, It says nothing unclean will enter heaven.

Well if Unclean people who have sinned are going to heaven because they have not commited mortal sin how are they purified. Well, we don’t really now, but we know that some unclean people are destined for heaven but they must have their souls “purged” aka. Purgatory in order to be perfect before God.

In fact, this is sometimes called a Catholic invention, but it was the belief of Strict Jews before Jesus and they prayed the Kadish, A prayer that God would quickly cleanse their dead so they could be in heaven. So, you see that the early Christians would have taken these passages in scripture to be eluding to the cleansing already understood in Judaism.

Purgatory is not for those in hell. Those in hell are there forever, Purgatory is only to cleanse those on their way to heaven. Purgatory is only a name used to describe a Christian reality that has been understood from before Christ. Catholics did invent the word Purgatory, but did not invent the idea of ritual cleansing to be pure before God in heaven.

Hope this Helps clear up some misunderstandings.
 
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