M
Melchior
Guest
Yet still no evidence. Just another man’s slander. Disgusting.
- Status
D
dumspirospero
Guest
Im sorry, but I am still trying to understand why so many people, i.e. protestants, who call themselves Christian and claim they live in line with the teachings of Christ are always trying to find justification in not doing anything to help their fellow man…do they only desire to look out for number one? Is it that much of a burden to help others? If they feel it is…why do they have a problem with us living the Beatitudes and following the true teachings of Christ? Is it possible they have a guilty conscience because they know in fact, they are not living according to the teachings of Christ…this is evident due to the number of repeated attempts they make to prove their point of view…which is asinine at best and could not be further from what Christ taught.
M
Melchior
Guest
How about taking them at their word? Most Evangelical protestants put most Catholics to shame in the area of living a devout Christian life - this is clearly evident to any one honest enough to look at the avergae evangelical. Devout protestants do believe in doing good works. But they believe they are to be done as an act of gratitude and obedience not trying to have their good works outway their sins to balance the cosmic scales and get them into heaven through their works. This is how mnay of them wrongly perceive the Catholic understanding. But you can hardly blame them with so many poorly catechized Catholic actually believing being a good person gets you to Heaven.
I am sorry but you are not going to find very many devout Protestants being lazy with doing good. To suggest otherwise means you know no evangelical Christians or you just want to make a polemical point inspite of the facts.
S
seek
Guest
Again the curse of (either or ) thinking rears it’s
ugly head instead of (both and) thinking. Insigni-
ficant, by whose authority do you say the gentle-
man’s intrepetation is incorrect. I’m not being con-
frontational, just saying–we respect, believe
intrepetation that again we believe was instituted
by Christ through Apostolic Succession. Christ is
the WAY in this Life. Apart from Christian
belief. in the secular world a WAY requires
action. Paul tells us CHARITY ranks above
Faith and Hope. CHARITY is Love in action.
Charity is not Platonic, Erotic, Agape. It
is action.
ugly head instead of (both and) thinking. Insigni-
ficant, by whose authority do you say the gentle-
man’s intrepetation is incorrect. I’m not being con-
frontational, just saying–we respect, believe
intrepetation that again we believe was instituted
by Christ through Apostolic Succession. Christ is
the WAY in this Life. Apart from Christian
belief. in the secular world a WAY requires
action. Paul tells us CHARITY ranks above
Faith and Hope. CHARITY is Love in action.
Charity is not Platonic, Erotic, Agape. It
is action.
R
Randy_Carson
Guest
Here are some verses illustrating that “once saved always saved” is incorrect.
Salvation as a past event
But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. (Ephesians 2:4-5)
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. (Ephesians 2:8-9)
Salvation as an ongoing activity
Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose. (Philippians 2:12-13)
Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy, for you are receiving the goal of your faith, the salvation of your souls. (1 Peter 1:8-9)
Salvation as a future event
And do this, understanding the present time. The hour has come for you to wake up from your slumber, because our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed. (Romans 13:11)
If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man’s work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames. (1 Corinthians 3:12-15)
When you are assembled in the name of our Lord Jesus and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord. (1 Corinthians 5:4-5)
A general summary of salvation, highlighting its past, present and future dimensions, would go something like this: “Salvation is a process that begins when a person first becomes a Christian, continues for the rest of his life, and is completed when he stands before God in judgement.” This summary allows the faithful Christian to do justice to all of the biblical data by saying, in faith and hope, “I have been saved, I am being saved, I will be saved.” It embraces all three dimensions of salvation that are present in the Bible.
M
mikeledes
Guest
V
Verita
Guest
What you need to understand is that Catholics view salvation as a process that isn’t over until we’re in Heaven. The first step is justification. It’s important to rememeber that to a Catholic justification is only part of the salvation process. Justification is by Grace alone. That is what the Church teaches. There’s nothing we can do to be justified. It all depends on the Atonement. However, once we are justified we are required to produce good works to maintain that saving grace. A better phrase to use I think is good actions. If we respond to our free gift of saving Grace with bad actions then we will loose that gift. God gives us what we need to be saved, but he can’t force us to be saved. It is our responsibility to respond to His gift with faith working through love. Jesus says many times in many ways that if we fail to respond to saving grace with good actions then we will not be saved.
D
dumspirospero
Guest
Actually…I am a convert from the Evangelicals…I know first hand exactly like they are…always condemning others for what they do…you drink…you are going to hell…you have a tatoo…you are going to hell…you played poker on Friday night…you are going to hell…in the meantime, they do the same things, except they are in the closet about it. The title of this thread should have been “Catholic: Anything else is Heresy”
E
E.E.N.S
Guest
I don’t think it is possible for any devout Christian, be he Catholic or protestant, being lazy in doing good, if he was he would not then be devout.
I would have to agree with you that there is probably a higher percentage of Evangelicals living their faith than that of Catholics, and that is a shame, but this in itself does not prove anything. (And as a personal testament, I didn’t start living like a Christian until I became a Catholic. Did I do so out of fear? Yes, but a filial fear.
)
S
santaro75
Guest
there is such thing as merits in the gospels.
and
Now of course works are only merited if you are only doing them for God’s glory. That means expecting no praise, appreciation or recognition from anyone for your works. Then it was indeed only for God and he will repay you.
See the thing that many don’t understand about the catholic understanding of merits is that everytime you give into God’s commands it requires you to forsake your own selfish desires. You die a little more to self and become a little more alive in Christ. That is hard to do and is meritorious in the Eyes of God according to the scripture.
God bless
D
dumspirospero
Guest
Also…you obviously know little about Catholicism…I have never once been taught that if I put in enough hours at the soup kitchen, I can erase a mortal sin…such as killing someone while drinking and driving…I find it hilarious that those who attack the Catholic Church, attack misconceptions…not Doctrine…because our Doctrines are perfect and flawless, because they come from Christ.
S
Saint_Augustin
Guest
The doctrine of justification see by Jesus and or by the apostle James is less complicated that the one described by Paul in the Epistle to the Romans.
I always saw the justification like a tango dance between the sinner and God. The cooperation of the two dancers is needed to realize the dance (justification).
In short, God can’t have faith for us.
Or, as we (the Catholics) are saying so often: ‘Help yourself and the sky will help you’.
A book by Chris VanLandingham, called ‘Judgment and Justification in Early Judaism and the Apostle Paul’ may help you. Look at it at Amazon.com
I always saw the justification like a tango dance between the sinner and God. The cooperation of the two dancers is needed to realize the dance (justification).
In short, God can’t have faith for us.
Or, as we (the Catholics) are saying so often: ‘Help yourself and the sky will help you’.
A book by Chris VanLandingham, called ‘Judgment and Justification in Early Judaism and the Apostle Paul’ may help you. Look at it at Amazon.com
M
Melchior
Guest
I was Evangelical for years too. I saw hypocrisy among them and I also saw wonderful things among them. Having also been Catholic, which I may be a gain soon, I can tell you I saw ten times more hypocrisy among Catholics growing up than I did among Evangelicals. However, it may be regional for both of us. Yours sounds like a Bible belt experience. Mine is certainly a Catholic “belt” experience. The mojority of people I know in the real world are Catholics. Easily 98% of them are nominal.
Hypocrites all around, but it is too easy to project our own personal experience onto an entire group, no?
Mel
M
Melchior
Guest
Good post. Good points. No argument here.I don’t think it is possible for any devout Christian, be he Catholic or protestant, being lazy in doing good, if he was he would not then be devout.
I would have to agree with you that there is probably a higher percentage of Evangelicals living their faith than that of Catholics, and that is a shame, but this in itself does not prove anything. (And as a personal testament, I didn’t start living like a Christian until I became a Catholic. Did I do so out of fear? Yes, but a filial fear.
M
Melchior
Guest
Born, baptized and confirmed in the archdiocese of Boston. If you read my post carefully I contrasted Catholic teaching from how many catholics actually believe. I am/was a cradle Catholic in one of the most populous catholic areas in the country on what Catholics in my experience believe because of poor catechesis. That is what I said.
R
Randy_Carson
Guest
Here are some verses illustrating Justification as a process:
Justification as an ongoing process
In Genesis, we read: “Abram believed the LORD, and he credited it to him as righteousness.” (Genesis 15:6)
Commenting on this passage, the Apostle Paul wrote:
“What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. What does the Scripture say? ‘Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.’ “ (Romans 4:1-3)
If justification is a one-time event as many Protestants claim it to be, then Abraham could not receive justification either before or after this event in Genesis 15:6. However, the Bible states he did both.
First, consider this passage:
“By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going.” (Hebrews 11:8)
The subject of Hebrews 11 is saving faith as can be seen from the opening verses: “Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. This is what the ancients were commended for.” (Hebrews 11:1-2) One is not commended for one’s faith unless it is saving faith. Therefore, the faith that Abraham is commended for in Hebrews 11:8 must be saving faith. But when did Abraham have this saving faith? It was “when called to go to a place he would later receive” and he “obeyed and went”.
The problem for the once-for-all view of justification is that the call of Abraham to leave Haran is recorded in Genesis 12:1-4, three chapters before he is justified in Genesis 15:6. From this, we see that Abraham was justified before, years before, he was justified in Genesis 16:6.
But that’s not all. James tells us:
“Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.” (James 2:21-23 KJV)
The account of the testing of Abraham is found in Genesis 22 which is well after Genesis 15:6.
We see, therefore, that Abraham was justified on at least three different occasions: Genesis 12, when he left Haran in faith; in Genesis 15, when he believed God’s promise concerning his descendants; and in Genesis 22, when he offered his son, Isaac, on the altar. As a result, justification must be seen, not as a once-for-all event, but as a process that continues throughout the believer’s life.
*Adapted from *The Salvation Controversy by James Akin.
Justification as an ongoing process
In Genesis, we read: “Abram believed the LORD, and he credited it to him as righteousness.” (Genesis 15:6)
Commenting on this passage, the Apostle Paul wrote:
“What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. What does the Scripture say? ‘Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.’ “ (Romans 4:1-3)
If justification is a one-time event as many Protestants claim it to be, then Abraham could not receive justification either before or after this event in Genesis 15:6. However, the Bible states he did both.
First, consider this passage:
“By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going.” (Hebrews 11:8)
The subject of Hebrews 11 is saving faith as can be seen from the opening verses: “Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. This is what the ancients were commended for.” (Hebrews 11:1-2) One is not commended for one’s faith unless it is saving faith. Therefore, the faith that Abraham is commended for in Hebrews 11:8 must be saving faith. But when did Abraham have this saving faith? It was “when called to go to a place he would later receive” and he “obeyed and went”.
The problem for the once-for-all view of justification is that the call of Abraham to leave Haran is recorded in Genesis 12:1-4, three chapters before he is justified in Genesis 15:6. From this, we see that Abraham was justified before, years before, he was justified in Genesis 16:6.
But that’s not all. James tells us:
“Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.” (James 2:21-23 KJV)
The account of the testing of Abraham is found in Genesis 22 which is well after Genesis 15:6.
We see, therefore, that Abraham was justified on at least three different occasions: Genesis 12, when he left Haran in faith; in Genesis 15, when he believed God’s promise concerning his descendants; and in Genesis 22, when he offered his son, Isaac, on the altar. As a result, justification must be seen, not as a once-for-all event, but as a process that continues throughout the believer’s life.
*Adapted from *The Salvation Controversy by James Akin.
D
dumspirospero
Guest
I hear you on that point my friend…growing up in Mississippi and in other place throughout the south…that is a common experience…it could be a regional thing…I too see hypocrisy in Catholics as well, and I am probably guilty of it as well at times…I do my best not to be though…I tell you though, it is frustrating to meet people around here, become friends with them…only to have them abandon you because you are Catholic…and they tell you about how the Pope is the anti-Christ and The Church is the Whore of Babylon with false doctrines…kind of makes one up tight when they feel their faith is being attacked…so I apologize if I came across a little brash or coarse…just a reaction. My friend in Christ…God Bless and Merry Christmas.
D
dumspirospero
Guest
After re-reading the post, I saw the contrast you made…I apologize for that…but I must make the point that some of the most well informed and catechized Catholics are in fact converts and not cradle Catholics…such as Scott Hahn and Marcus Grodi Don’t exclude us just because we were born Protestant.
Don’t exclude us just because we were born Protestant.
E
E.E.N.S
Guest
Indeed this has been a problem. Though the pedulum is starting to swing back in the right direction - slowly but surely.
M
Melchior
Guest
I understand. I will be moving South soon and expect, even as an Anglo-Catholic who will probably “come home” I am concerned about anti-Catholic culture.
Peace,
Mel
- Status