Catholic Soteriology:Heresy?

[mikeledes]

Our merits can only flow out of a heart freely regenerated by God. As Romans 2:6-7 clearly state, eternal life in the age to come is promised to those among the justified who persevere in doing good works to the end.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Melchior]

After re-reading the post, I saw the contrast you made…I apologize for that…but I must make the point that some of the most well informed and catechized Catholics are in fact converts and not cradle Catholics…such as Scott Hahn and Marcus Grodi Don’t exclude us just because we were born Protestant.

I tried to edit that part before you read it. I apologize. You are absolutely right. You converts are actually saving the church, by bringing your evangelical zeal into the Church.

 

[Randy_Carson]

How about taking them at their word? Most Evangelical protestants put most Catholics to shame in the area of living a devout Christian life - this is clearly evident to any one honest enough to look at the avergae evangelical. Devout protestants do believe in doing good works. But they believe they are to be done as an act of gratitude and obedience not trying to have their good works outway their sins to balance the cosmic scales and get them into heaven through their works. This is how mnay of them wrongly perceive the Catholic understanding. But you can hardly blame them with so many poorly catechized Catholic actually believing being a good person gets you to Heaven.

I am sorry but you are not going to find very many devout Protestants being lazy with doing good. To suggest otherwise means you know no evangelical Christians or you just want to make a polemical point inspite of the facts.

Melchior-

You make some good points here. Satan has been hammering the Catholic Church from the beginning, and he has had a field day with our catechesis over the past couple of decades.

I admire and applaud your love for the Lord and your zeal in serving him. I wish we saw more of the same in our own parishes.

However, all these kudos notwithstanding, I do sometimes wonder if much of the energy expended by evangelicals is not done so in an attempt to prove (to themselves and to the others in their congregation) that they really are saved and perservering until the end.

Since many evangelicals believe that it is possible to fall away (meaning that they never really were saved to begin with), I think there is a certain amount of fear driving them.

Ironically, while it is claimed (erroneously) by evangelicals that Catholics seek to “earn” their way into heaven, it is the evangelicals themselves who appear to be on a treadmill of works (missions, witnessing, service to the church, etc.)

Before you tee off on me, please consider that I am a convert to Catholicism with MANY evangelicals in my own family to observe and speak with. Is there ANY truth at all in my analysis? A smidgeon perhaps?

 

[petra]

In my reading of the Gospel’s I see no case made for the need of good works in themselves, as part of meriting salvation. I think Catholic Soteriology is a grave misunderstanding of the Gospel, one that is so dangerous I struggle with calling it heresy from time to time. I don’t want people to think that I don’t believe Catholics can be Christian’s, I hope with all my heart they can for my families sake. However, I see no case fore the doctrine which Catholics hold on the matter. So please enlighten me, so that I may better understand where you all are coming from.

Mere works cannot save, just as mere faith cannot save. Both only have value if they are a response to the grace of God working in a person’s life.

An example of faith working independently from God’s grace and having no value is the faith of Moslem suicide bombers. They certainly have strong convictions and believe that they are doing the work of God. But clearly they are not. Sincerity cannot save people. Mere faith cannot save people.

Similarly, mere works cannot save. The Catholic Church is most decidedly does NOT teach a “good person” gospel. The notion that people go to heaven if they are basically a good person is an anti-gospel and has always been rejected by the Church.

However, as the Holy Spirit moves in people drawing them to Himself, they must respond with a combination of faith and works. In that context, faith absolutely must have action. Faith alone is dead. This is a gospel of 100% grace and is what the Church teaches.

 

[Prayer_Warrior]

I was Evangelical for years too. I saw hypocrisy among them and I also saw wonderful things among them. Having also been Catholic, which I may be a gain soon, I can tell you I saw ten times more hypocrisy among Catholics growing up than I did among Evangelicals. However, it may be regional for both of us. Yours sounds like a Bible belt experience. Mine is certainly a Catholic “belt” experience. The mojority of people I know in the real world are Catholics. Easily 98% of them are nominal.

Hypocrites all around, but it is too easy to project our own personal experience onto an entire group, no?

Mel

Indeed we all have different personal experiences, my experience with Catholics has not been the same at all. All the Catholics I hang out with are ‘devout’–daily Mass, daily Bible study, living their lives to serve God, etc. Maybe it is a regional thing, I don’t know. I can tell you that the folks I am talking about are life long Catholics. But I agree that all Catholics are sinners and many Catholics are hypocrites. And I heartily agree that catechisis has been a disaster in the Catholic Church for many years. I think that you are right in the notion that converts have breathed new life into catechisis, and I am sure God had a hand in it. The fact that so many Catholics are somewhat ignorant of their faith explains why so many non-Catholics are even more ignorant of the faith. However, it has been my experience that most of the Catholics here know exactly what they are talking about.

Percentage wise, evangelicals would seem to have the upper hand in the area of devout living. Although it is possible that those numbers are skewed *a bit *due to the fact that in many such churches the sinners are virtually kicked out if they are caught in a sin–say an affair or something- and they feel forced to move on. That may not be your experience, but I have seen it with my own eyes. And, if such a thing happens, then they are told they were never saved in the first place… but that is a point for another thread I know.

 

[Cranch]

Most Evangelical protestants put most Catholics to shame in the area of living a devout Christian life

This is rank BS.

 

[Pauli]

Maybe the problem is, what do we actually mean by “works?” In Matthew 25, verses 31 to the end, where Jesus talks of the final judgment, separating sheep and goats, he is asking about what they did for the poor, and the least of these, and those in trouble, and what was done about it – or not done. Their whole eternal destiny depends on this, not whether they said “Lord, lord.” It is very sobering, to any Christian – who can ever say they have done enough?

Also, In Luke18,18 a man comes out and asks Jesus plainly: “What should I do to gain eternal life?” The answer is also in plain words: obey the commandments. How do these scriptures tie in with “once saved, always saved?”

I think the Catholic definition of “works” is, “faith in action.” Is the protestant definition different?

 

[mikeledes]

Unfortunately, there are too many Catholics that do not live out their faith. However, we have to take into consideration the Church’s age (two millenia) and its large membership (1 Billion). Many Evangelicals are recent converts and thus have a zeal that might be lacking in a Catholic whose family has been Catholic for generations. These Catholics take their religion for granted or are “cultural” Catholics. I would like to see these Evangelical churches after a millenia and see if they don’t have a large number of lukewarm members.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[VociMike]

How about taking them at their word? Most Evangelical protestants put most Catholics to shame in the area of living a devout Christian life

But what would you expect the situation to be if, instead of comparing all those who identify themselves as Catholic. you compared Catholics who believe all that the Church teaches and who attend Mass every week?

I don’t know how much of a problem there is with “cultural” Evangelicals, but there is a tremendous problem with “cultural” Catholics. Further, Protestantism being what it is, a dissident Evangelical will simply find a liberal, non-Evangelical church, whereas dissident Catholics tend to stay in the Church and eat at it from the inside. But eliminate the cultural Catholics and the dissident Catholics from your comparison and you will find Catholics who live for Christ every bit as much as any Evangelicals. Now, if we only had more of them…

 

[jacobaer]

Jesus and John and Paul and James did NOT teach “once saved, always saved.”

---

1 John 5:16

If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray and God will give him life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that.

Question: What kind of “death” is John referring to? If you say physical death, then you are left with the untenable position that backsliders automatically die. John is referring to spiritual death.

James 1:12-16

Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him. When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; ut each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. hen, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death. Don’t be deceived, my dear brothers.

Question: Why does James warn his “brothers” not to be deceived about sin? In the eternal security construct, sin cannot make you lose your eternal life. But Scripture says here that it can.

Romans 8:12-17

Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation—but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live, because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, “Abba, Father.” The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

Question: What does it mean to “share in His sufferings”?

Galatians 5:19-21

The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Question: Why is Paul warning these believers if they are eternally secure?

Luke 15:31-32

" ‘My son,’ the father said, ‘you are always with me, and everything I have is yours. But we had to celebrate and be glad, because this brother of yours was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’ "

Question: What does Jesus mean by the phrase “was dead and is alive AGAIN”?

Peace,
Jacobaer

 

[FCEGM]

But what would you expect the situation to be if, instead of comparing all those who identify themselves as Catholic. you compared Catholics who believe all that the Church teaches and who attend Mass every week? . . .QUOTE]

Yes, and among them are the saints who live at a level of intimacy with Christ (as did their spiritual forebears, e.g., Teresa of Jesus, John of the Cross, Benedict, Francis, etc., etc.,) unknown to the most pious Evangelical.

 

[Sean_Boyle]

But what would you expect the situation to be if, instead of comparing all those who identify themselves as Catholic. you compared Catholics who believe all that the Church teaches and who attend Mass every week?

I don’t know how much of a problem there is with “cultural” Evangelicals, but there is a tremendous problem with “cultural” Catholics. Further, Protestantism being what it is, a dissident Evangelical will simply find a liberal, non-Evangelical church, whereas dissident Catholics tend to stay in the Church and eat at it from the inside. But eliminate the cultural Catholics and the dissident Catholics from your comparison and you will find Catholics who live for Christ every bit as much as any Evangelicals. Now, if we only had more of them…

Excellent point! Well said

 

[Melchior]

Melchior-

You make some good points here. Satan has been hammering the Catholic Church from the beginning, and he has had a field day with our catechesis over the past couple of decades.

I admire and applaud your love for the Lord and your zeal in serving him. I wish we saw more of the same in our own parishes.

However, all these kudos notwithstanding, I do sometimes wonder if much of the energy expended by evangelicals is not done so in an attempt to prove (to themselves and to the others in their congregation) that they really are saved and perservering until the end.

Since many evangelicals believe that it is possible to fall away (meaning that they never really were saved to begin with), I think there is a certain amount of fear driving them.

Ironically, while it is claimed (erroneously) by evangelicals that Catholics seek to “earn” their way into heaven, it is the evangelicals themselves who appear to be on a treadmill of works (missions, witnessing, service to the church, etc.)

Before you tee off on me, please consider that I am a convert to Catholicism with MANY evangelicals in my own family to observe and speak with. Is there ANY truth at all in my analysis? A smidgeon perhaps?

I can’t argue with any of this, Randy. I would be naive if I said it did not ring true.

Mel

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Hear ye, hear ye, I as a Protestant believe that good works are necassary for salvation. But that was never my questions, I don’t understand how (if they actually do) believe that works, to any degree, are at all the cause of our salvation or the justification. In contrast to the result of election.

They are not the INITIAL cause but the sustaining cause. Jesus saved us that we would be made able to obey Him. The John 15 passage is very powerful in this regard:
1"I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. 3You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. 5"I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you. 8This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit,** showing yourselves to be my disciples.**
9"As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father’s commands and remain in his love. Apart from Jesus we cant bear the fruit pleasing to the Father, Jesus the Vine feeds us the branches that through our obedience good fruit will result. No hint of faith alone here, rather salvation its a life long process of obedience to Christ which starts and ends with the Vine’s grace.

 

[Randy_Carson]

I can’t argue with any of this, Randy. I would be naive if I said it did not ring true.

Mel

Thank you for that honesty.

 

[hoosierdaddy]

Apart from Jesus we cant bear the fruit pleasing to the Father, Jesus the Vine feeds us the branches that through our obedience good fruit will result. No hint of faith alone here, rather salvation its a life long process of obedience to Christ which starts and ends with the Vine’s grace.

But does the branch work in its own strength or does it rest in the vine? It is clear that we are to do good works, however they come as a result of genuine saving faith I believe. A two for one deal I guess.

 

[Mintaka]

I think one of the old terms was “sanctification” – the process of becoming holy. The more we put on Christ, the more we begin to look and act like Him.

 

[SPH1]

In my reading of the Gospel’s I see no case made for the need of good works in themselves, as part of meriting salvation. I think Catholic Soteriology is a grave misunderstanding of the Gospel, one that is so dangerous I struggle with calling it heresy from time to time. I don’t want people to think that I don’t believe Catholics can be Christian’s, I hope with all my heart they can for my families sake. However, I see no case fore the doctrine which Catholics hold on the matter. So please enlighten me, so that I may better understand where you all are coming from.

It is the Holy Catholic Church that determines what is and is not heresy. You have no such authority whatsoever.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

But does the branch work in its own strength or does it rest in the vine? It is clear that we are to do good works, however they come as a result of genuine saving faith I believe. A two for one deal I guess.

The branches’ strength originates in the Vine, it maintains itself in the vine by “keeping His commandments” and “bearing good fruit”…nowhere does it say “faith” much less “faith alone”…thats your presumption

 

[Melchior]

It is the Holy Catholic Church that determines what is and is not heresy. You have no such authority whatsoever.

Possibly true. Totally unhelpful.