Catholic Spending

[Kay_Cee]

You can go as beyond as you want, you are not answering the question. I do not do it because I do not adhere to the bible as closely as the church should. We should all try, and the institution that preaches the book should adhere to it. Not saying more, but they should adhere. I strive to do my best, but frankly that does not matter.

Are you kidding me? It matters very much! It matters infinitely much!!!

How does having a lavish church accomplish their goals? If I stripped everything away, how would that make them change? Essentially you are saying “Well oh well let’s just wait for God to do something and judge while we suffer instead of questioning why the church does not follow its own rules”. I do not do it because I am selfish and want to live a decent life. Are you saying the church is selfish?

Please do not put words into my mouth. That is not my point in any way, shape, or form.

But I admire your honesty regarding why you do not do it yourself. Now you should stop all criticism and leave it at that or would you prefer to be judged according to Matthew 7:2?

As for your question asking if the Church is selfish, I might remind you that the Church is the very Body of Christ (see Colossions 1:24). So you are asking if the Body of Christ is selfish. I think you already know the answer to that.

 

[Chaulmers]

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder though.

Do they need to last for thousands and thousands of years? Isnt the vatican enough for the testament of faith? I appreciate your answer(while painful to read on the eyes), and it was by far the closest to an answer I have received on these boards.

God surely does not care, and the people who do care and need a nice church for religious purposes obviously do not care as much about the religion. Would you still go to church in a gym, with air conditioning, and kneelers? It is my understanding that what makes a place is holy is what happens on the inside. The body and blood of Christ for instance, a tabernackel(spelling?) need not be extravagant and in some churches is not because the important part is on the inside.

Dont judge a book by its cover, frankly I would read a good book if it had a rather plain cover, I do not need it to be gold.

 

[Chaulmers]

Are you kidding me? It matters very much! It matters infinitely much!!!

Please do not put words into my mouth. That is not my point in any way, shape, or form.

But I admire your honesty regarding why you do not do it yourself. Now you should stop all criticism and leave it at that or would you prefer to be judged according to Matthew 7:2?

As for your question asking if the Church is selfish, I might remind you that the Church is the very Body of Christ (see Colossions 1:24). So you are asking if the Body of Christ is selfish. I think you already know the answer to that.

Well you said look into myself for the answers, that is why I do it. I am not perfect, I am selfish. Why does the church? All I want is an answer.

 

[Darran]

You’re questioning why we give the best to God? What a principle

Thousands/millions of people donate out of the goodness of their hearts to have a Church built that will last for centuries. Every priest or religious who operate inside that Church take a vow of poverty, or if not, live off a tiny income to cover basic food and transport. That very church will become a centre for charity to the poor, owing to it being connected to the entire of the Catholic Church (which by the way, is the greatest charity in the world regarding money by far and wide, if that’s all that you’re interested in). And you say it should sell its Chalices and ornaments who are made or donated to God, not for the benefit of man, and give it to the poor as well?

No. God takes first place above everything. It isn’t possible to be charitable and leave out God, as that is the most uncharitable idea possible. Dead charity. It just so happens that the respect the Church owe to God is so great already that the command He gives us to be charitable is as great as it is, and as successful as it is. Nothing in the world comes close to surpassing the Church in Charity, and how often does it flaunt it? The world has never been able to do better, all it can do it would seem is nitpick.

We are to love our neighbors as ourselves. That is what the scriptures and the Church teach, not that we should sell our very souls to the poor as you seem to think it does. To love our neighbors as ourselves, and we are all far below God.

 

[Chaulmers]

BTW as I have said numerous times the amount does not matter it is about doing what is in your means to do, for instance the lady who donated 2 pennies donated as much in the eyes of Jesus as the guy who gave 50 gold pieces but was rich.

However the church is not number 1 in U.S. charities

forbes.com/lists/2005/14/Revenue_1.html

 

[Chaulmers]

You’re questioning why we give the best to God? What a principle

Thousands/millions of people donate out of the goodness of their hearts to have a Church built that will last for centuries. Every priest or religious who operate inside that Church take a vow of poverty, or if not, live off a tiny income to cover basic food and transport. That very church will become a centre for charity to the poor, owing to it being connected to the entire of the Catholic Church (which by the way, is the greatest charity in the world regarding money by far and wide, if that’s all that you’re interested in). And you say it should sell its Chalices and ornaments who are made or donated to God, not for the benefit of man, and give it to the poor as well?

No. God takes first place above everything. It isn’t possible to be charitable and leave out God, as that is the most uncharitable idea possible. Dead charity. It just so happens that the respect the Church owe to God is so great already that the command He gives us to be charitable is as great as it is, and as successful as it is. Nothing in the world comes close to surpassing the Church in Charity, and how often does it flaunt it? The world has never been able to do better, all it can do it would seem is nitpick.

So…vanity?

 

[Kay_Cee]

Well you said look into myself for the answers, that is why I do it. I am not perfect, I am selfish. Why does the church? All I want is an answer.

Darren answered your question exceedingly well.

 

[Chaulmers]

I am saying be charitable to God but do so within your means and give to those who are not and serve them. I am not saying abolish every church, please read by prior post about book/cover and how people if they are religious would still go to church in a gym with kneelers as long as the proper sacraments were there and it was holy.

 

[Kay_Cee]

I am saying be charitable to God but do so within your means and give to those who are not and serve them. I am not saying abolish every church, please read by prior post about book/cover and how people if they are religious would still go to church in a gym with kneelers as long as the proper sacraments were there and it was holy.

Which do you think is more appropriate to house the Eucharist, the very Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus?

A tabernacle or a shoe box?

 

[austenbosten]

I take the last several chapters of Exodus.

Exodus 36:8-38
to
Exodus 40

Once again, God commanded a band of refugees to use fine wood, gold, linen, silver, brass and dyed fabrics…all of which was obscenely expensive and difficult to come by.

We cannot understand why God commanded this, but I can understand my point of view. When I enter a Catholic cathedral over a humble Protestant church, I have a different feeling.

When I enter a Catholic cathedral, something overcomes me…the opulence tells me that this is something greater than myself and therefore I must show respect and humility. I always feel more “holy” in an opulent church than a modest one, because one looks like a convention hall, and the other looks like a House of God.

Call it vanity, selfishness…whatever you want, but I believe that humans need visual reassurance.

However Fr. Robert Barron brings some insight.
youtube.com/watch?v=AhRcywjuZF0&feature=plcp

 

[Darran]

However the church is not number 1 in U.S. charities

However, the US isn’t the world. Nor is 1 current statistic representative of a Church that has been almsgiving for 2000 years, a 1500 head start on America.

I am saying be charitable to God but do so within your means and give to those who are not and serve them. I am not saying abolish every church, please read by prior post about book/cover and how people if they are religious would still go to church in a gym with kneelers as long as the proper sacraments were there and it was holy.

And the Church gives within its means. If Masses were to be held in car parks then that would be respecting men more than God, yet we are commanded as a first to respect to God above all things.

Just the same way as at the well, the small sacrifices of the poor mean more to God than the extravagant but non proportional donations of the rich. The money that passes through the Church is made up of these small and costly sacrifices. But that isn’t relevant. What was the treasury money used for at the temple, by the way, as commanded by God?

 

[Chaulmers]

However, the US isn’t the world. Nor is 1 current statistic representative of a Church that has been almsgiving for 2000 years, a 1500 head start on America.

And the Church gives within its means. If Masses were to be held in car parks then that would be respecting men more than God, yet we are commanded as a first to respect to God above all things.

Just the same way as at the well, the small sacrifices of the poor mean more to God than the extravagant but non proportional donations of the rich. The money that passes through the Church is made up of these small and costly sacrifices. But that isn’t relevant. What was the treasury money used for at the temple, by the way, as commanded by God?

I am not saying hold them in car parks and have the tabernacle as a shoe box. I am sure there is a middle ground somewhere.

 

[Chaulmers]

I take the last several chapters of Exodus.

Exodus 36:8-38
to
Exodus 40

Once again, God commanded a band of refugees to use fine wood, gold, linen, silver, brass and dyed fabrics…all of which was obscenely expensive and difficult to come by.

We cannot understand why God commanded this, but I can understand my point of view. When I enter a Catholic cathedral over a humble Protestant church, I have a different feeling.

When I enter a Catholic cathedral, something overcomes me…the opulence tells me that this is something greater than myself and therefore I must show respect and humility. I always feel more “holy” in an opulent church than a modest one, because one looks like a convention hall, and the other looks like a House of God.

Call it vanity, selfishness…whatever you want, but I believe that humans need visual reassurance.

However Fr. Robert Barron brings some insight.
youtube.com/watch?v=AhRcywjuZF0&feature=plcp

But do you NEED it? But this post was very good and is further to answering my question. So people need the visual assurance of God. Yes it is good to be humbled and I am not attacking a building that is great, I am saying is it necessary for the belief? I believe the answer is no.

 

[Kay_Cee]

I am not saying hold them in car parks and have the tabernacle as a shoe box. I am sure there is a middle ground somewhere.

But you were not proposing a middle ground. You were proposing a gym.

When we pray “Glory to God in the highest” our architecture should reflect our words. It should glorify God. We should glorify God in every way we can. Doesn’t God deserve our best?

Sadly, the greatest cathedrals on earth do not even begin to approach being good enough to house the Eucharist, but unfortunately they have to do.

 

[Chaulmers]

A 500 year old Romanesque Bascillica, or a gym? Or a conservative church, I would say there arent too many 500 year old romanesque bascillica’s in the U.S., so that really doesnt seem like a valid question.

Where do you think you are more likely to have a greater appreciation for the possibility of the real presence of Christ: in front of a raggedy old box, or in front of a gold plated tabernacle with images of the 12 apostles? From the scriptures, Christ is present everywhere.

Whose church members do you think you are more likely to find sincere in their faith that they hold the real truth of the Word and being of God: those who sit in a gym or those who honor that real presence by surrounding it with beauty and majesty? Those whose church adhere to it the most through charitable efforts in the community. Not broadcasting those duties but just doing them enough and eventually people will notice.

Which church will inspire more people to continue to grow in their faith and, in keeping therewith, join in the effort to help the less fortunate? That church whose leaders educate them and answer questions the best.

It is about education of the faith.

 

[Chaulmers]

But you were not proposing a middle ground. You were proposing a gym.

When we pray “Glory to God in the highest” our architecture should reflect our words. It should glorify God. We should glorify God in every way we can. Doesn’t God deserve our best?

Sadly, the greatest cathedrals on earth do not even begin to approach being good enough to house the Eucharist, but unfortunately they have to do.

But why? Actions speak louder than a lavish structure.

 

[bilop]

How does having a lavish church accomplish their goals? If I stripped everything away, how would that make them change? Essentially you are saying “Well oh well let’s just wait for God to do something and judge while we suffer instead of questioning why the church does not follow its own rules”. I do not do it because I am selfish and want to live a decent life. Are you saying the church is selfish?

It gives Glory to God. The Church is God’s house. He resides there in the Real Presence of the Holy Eucharist.

God’s house should be lavishly decorated; it shows the importance we place on our belief. The same reasoning is behind Patens and Chalices being made of precious metals only; God deserves the best.

If, instead of building St. Peter’s Basilica, the Church had given all that money to the poor in the 16th c., the money would be gone, and those people would all be gone on to their just rewards, for over 400 years.

Instead, that wonderful Basilica has been glorifying God, and winning souls to Christ for 5 centuries.

At the end of the day, giving Glory to God is priority number one.

God Bless

 

[Kay_Cee]

But why? Actions speak louder than a lavish structure.

Like the action of building a beautiful church not only to glorify God but to house the Euacharist? Like the action of giving God our very best instead of the lowest common denominator?

 

[Chaulmers]

It gives Glory to God. The Church is God’s house. He resides there in the Real Presence of the Holy Eucharist.

God’s house should be lavishly decorated; it shows the importance we place on our belief. The same reasoning is behind Patens and Chalices being made of precious metals only; God deserves the best.

If, instead of building St. Peter’s Basilica, the Church had given all that money to the poor in the 16th c., the money would be gone, and those people would all be gone on to their just rewards, for over 400 years.

Instead, that wonderful Basilica has been glorifying God, and winning souls to Christ for 5 centuries.

At the end of the day, giving Glory to God is priority number one.

God Bless

But does God actually care? If he is an all powerful, all knowing, all kind being why would he care? Cant you simply show your respect for him inside a modest establishment and help out others more?

I mean all of these arguments are about honoring God more, what if I built a giant thing out of gold saying glory to god and mounted it in my backyard would that make God honor me more? If he will be happy with a repsectful offering then the churches need not be lavish, if he is not, then my above scenerio is what I shoud be saving for since cares.

 

[austenbosten]

But do you NEED it? But this post was very good and is further to answering my question. So people need the visual assurance of God. Yes it is good to be humbled and I am not attacking a building that is great, I am saying is it necessary for the belief? I believe the answer is no.

Spiritually no, a large opulent house of worship is not necessary for belief. For the final great temple of God is the Eucharist, as Christ said in the Book of John when He challenged the Israelites to destroy the temple and He would rebuild it in three days. Of course Christ risen on the third day. The temple of God is not in a building but in Christ.

However culturally, we have opulent temples to remind people who Christ was. Whether we wish or not, we live in a material world. When you enter a city or village, what do you think should be the focal point of that village?

A forum?
A market?
A castle?
A university?

or a Church?

Culturally we build them because humans are visual creatures and placing a church at the center of it, and making it the tallest and grandest building helps serve to remind people what the purpose of life is…seeking the Kingdom of God.

It reminds me of the last line of a Georgian film called Repentance (Monanieba) in which an elderly woman asked a woman —who suffered along with her family under the brutal regime of Valram Aravidze— if ‘Valram Street led to the church.’ When the woman answered “No.” the old woman replied “What good is a road if it doesn’t lead to a church?”

Much like could be said of society, what good is society, if it doesn’t place its emphasis on its church?