'Catholic Spring' uprising prediction for Ireland over dissenting priest Father Flannery

[saveusfromhell]

Not my list, it was Jesus’ list.

So you think that you need these to BE Catholic, as Liza said? Even though, as we know from what she said, what YOU think is irrelevant, I’m still interested in what your thoughts are about this.

Why do you think the Pope waited until now to take this action? Have you ever “dissented” from something a Pope said or did? Ever criticized a Bishop?

that’s a very confusing post. liza was talking about you. not corki. then after posting that corki is irrelevant you say you interested in what his/her thoughts are. even though corki would have to take a wild guess to answer you.
Jesus list was
Jesus said to him, ‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’
the other list was one you compiled
as for dissenting from pope or critzing a bishop, it’s against the forum rules to derail a thread or go off in tangents.

 

[trials]

We shouldn’t be surprised that your posts haven’t been accepted. The ones calling for tolerance are usually the most intolerant of views that differ from their own agenda.

Unfortunately I will not be in a position to go to that assembly. Although I am utterly opposed to the agenda of the ACP I think it would be great to muster a good crowd of faithful Catholics to “infiltrate” the meeting to air their views - to demand that a group calling themselves “Catholic Priests” actually be Catholic! I know from personal experience that that would really get up their noses. I was outside one of their meetings last year in a show of support for the Holy Father and the new translation of the Roman Missal and they did not like it one bit! You’d think some of them were demon possessed the way their faces contorted when their eyes fell on our giant picture of Pope Benedict. On a serious note though, the devil is most certainly in their work, and therefore the armour of Christ through prayer, knowing the faith, and acts of penance and self-denial (as called for by the Holy Father in his letter to Irish Catholics in 2010) will be our surest defence against this scourge - this heresy - of liberalism and modernism.

Well done you. Wish I’d been there to support you. I know the Church will come through this, as it has come through so many trials before, but I really feel the need to act. Like you said, to get a voice heard from Catholics that actually support the Church and its teachings and are not just blindly accepting their faith, but understand it and love it. *We *need to be heard now. I am praying and praying that God will show me how to act. It is very hard when it is your own parish priest too that is supportive of this group. I don’t feel comfortable talking to him about this at all, mainly because of the respect I have for priests, I can’t see myself challenging him charitably without feeling like I’m in the wrong to dare to criticise a priest. All I have done is pray every day for him.

I was talking about this with someone yesterday, and realised that maybe good will come from this. Too long the liberal views had been infiltrating our Church here at the highest levels - I don’t mean Bishops, (or at least I hope not), but training of priests, and Diocesan-led discussions/meetings/seminars, etc. It was like the elephant in the room. No one did anything about it, or explicitly mentioned it, but we knew it was there like a spreading virus. Now the extent of the disease is there for all to see - the ACP has shown themselves for what they really are, in their skewed survey and their comments on the Vatican - it’s out there. I pray that now the Church will be purified, even if it comes down to people choosing to break away from the Church towards something of their own making that houses all these liberal views. Am I making any sense?

 

[Corki]

Not my list, it was Jesus’ list.

So you think that you need these to BE Catholic, as Liza said? Even though, as we know from what she said, what YOU think is irrelevant, I’m still interested in what your thoughts are about this.

Why do you think the Pope waited until now to take this action? Have you ever “dissented” from something a Pope said or did? Ever criticized a Bishop?

To BE a Catholic** priest**, what you quoted and my additions all come from Scripture in what Jesus asks of his shepherds.

Yes, I have disagreed with Church teaching and repented and been absolved of it. But I am not a priest, either. And there’s a huge difference between disagreeing with something a Bishop or even the Pope says and dissenting from dogmatic teachings of the Church.

 

[Julia_Mae]

Jesus said to him, ‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’
the other list was one you compiled
as for dissenting from pope or critzing a bishop, it’s against the forum rules to derail a thread or go off in tangents.

I’m trying to discuss the topic of the thread. The OP posted a link to a priest censured for dissent and criticism of the Pope. The OP wrote this opinion:

I for one say bring it on. I think it would be good for there to be a cleaning of house in the Catholic Church, and if folks can’t get with the program, and refuse to actually BE Catholic, then they make the decision to leave the Church. But do not stay inside and try to destroy it from within.

So, the thread topic is dissent from Church authority and what it means to BE Catholic.

As for the list being something I compiled, that list is just repeating what Jesus said. Do you need citations? From Matthew 25:

‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’

It’s also true that when challenged about disobeying rules set down by Church authority, Jesus declared He was Lord of the Sabbath. What I do not find is a single verse where Jesus speaks about silent acceptance of any person’s authority, as far as a church goes.

The topic, as set by the OP, concerns what it means to BE Catholic. Are we defining “Catholic” as different from “Christian?” The Church doesn’t, as far as I know.

 

[Hopemercy]

Why wasn’t he if the issue is the same as it was years ago? Why act now?

That is a very good question…

One rural parish I lived in was having a problem with the priest. Such was it that they contacted the bishop… This was an older, late entry priest who ran his own farm and was very little in the parish…

The bishop admitted wrong was being done, but said he was… scared to approach the priest in case he left…When he did try to intervene, the priest opined that the bishop should mind his own beeswax.

Such is the shortage of priests that they are allowed to run things as they please. My PP here is such another sadly.

Flannery et al know this fine well and are using the weaknesses… Oh they claim they have 800 priestly supporters but they make so many claims.

Makes one wonder what they really want? Do they think the Vatican is going to roll over and agree to all they ask?

Someone needs to ask them this. They have no resources to form their own church and of course are well fed and well housed etc. Comfortable etc.

 

[Julia_Mae]

To BE a Catholic** priest**, what you quoted and my additions all come from Scripture in what Jesus asks of his shepherds.

Well, one of them was what Jesus asked: feed my sheep.

Your list is a little incomplete. You left out humbly submit to authority and, as Jesus told Peter “feed my sheep”.

Still not finding anything about “humbly submit to authority.” In fact, in Acts, Paul does question the Church in Jerusalem, about requiring Gentiles to be circumcised. That was a good thing, big discussion, changed the “dogma.” It was dogma, of course, pretty much the oldest sign of being one of the children of Abraham.

I agree that the priest going to the parishioners, or the “sheep” with the opinions while performing his priestly duties is very inappropriate. So, this priest in the op, he was for ending the celibacy requirement for all priests (not dogma, of course) women’s ordination,
(you can argue that one) and he was very critical of how the sexual abuse of children issue was handled by the Vatican. Were there other things?

But he isn’t alone, from what I read, there seem to be a rather large number of priests who agree with at least part of what he said. I don’t know which parts, because in all of this, I still don’t find any actual quotes from the priest in question about anything or from the other priests.

I wish, for myself, that at Mass a priest would stick to bringing us the Word and the Sacraments and not be going “off-topic.” That’s what I think “feed my sheep” means. I was spoiled by going to Mass every week with Archbishop Chaput as celebrant, of course.

 

[Hopemercy]

Julia Mae… these men took Vows when they were ordained. Of Obedience to the Pope to their bishops, etc etc etc.

They did so as adults, after many years of formation.

These are Life Vows…

Within the Catholic Church.

If they find that they can no longer keep these Vows, and patently they are not doing so, then the honest thing would be to apply for laicisation.

These are worldly men so maybe they need to look at a worldly firm/company. If an employee starts to speak out against the directors can he expect to be approved?

I’m trying to discuss the topic of the thread. The OP posted a link to a priest censured for dissent and criticism of the Pope. The OP wrote this opinion:

So, the thread topic is dissent from Church authority and what it means to BE Catholic.

As for the list being something I compiled, that list is just repeating what Jesus said. Do you need citations? From Matthew 25:

It’s also true that when challenged about disobeying rules set down by Church authority, Jesus declared He was Lord of the Sabbath. What I do not find is a single verse where Jesus speaks about silent acceptance of any person’s authority, as far as a church goes.

The topic, as set by the OP, concerns what it means to BE Catholic. Are we defining “Catholic” as different from “Christian?” The Church doesn’t, as far as I know.

 

[Slaney]

Fr Flannery is hardly on his own on this in Ireland, there are a few " high profile " priests that like to air their liberal views at Mass, had to sit through a few of those sermons God forbid…

The People God help them are carried along by the shepherds who push their own liberal agenda in blatant opposition to the teaching of the Magisterium. Jesus made it clear about what was laid down on earth being ratified in Heaven, doesn’t seem to matter to some of these latter day preachers, who are leading the sheep astray, many of whom wouldn’t know the front or back of a Bible if they were hit over the head with it.

 

[sw85]

Why wasn’t he if the issue is the same as it was years ago? Why act now?

Possibly because Fr. Flannery is comparatively smaller fish than the larger issues with which the Holy Father has been dealing, such as negotiating with the SSPX and establishing the Anglican ordinariate. Possibly because the situation in Ireland has, in the eyes of the Vatican, gotten markedly worse recently. Possibly he decided to make an example out of one renegade priest so as to send a message to the hundreds of others threatening revolt in Europe.

Who knows, or cares? Why it’s taken so long to deal with him is not an issue. Whether or not he was dealt with appropriately is. It turns out, it’s a really really dumb idea to attack your boss in public, repeatedly. Fr. Flannery, I suspect, will have plenty of time in silence and meditation to reflect on that fact.

 

[Prague]

How sad to hear about the beautiful Catholic faith under attack in Ireland. I will keep our Irish family in my prayers. I am of Irish descent and have always been proud of the faith that was passed on to me by my Irish ancestors.

 

[AnotherVoice]

Julia Mae… these men took Vows when they were ordained. Of Obedience to the Pope to their bishops, etc etc etc.

They did so as adults, after many years of formation.

These are Life Vows…

Within the Catholic Church.

If they find that they can no longer keep these Vows, and patently they are not doing so, then the honest thing would be to apply for laicisation.

These are worldly men so maybe they need to look at a worldly firm/company. If an employee starts to speak out against the directors can he expect to be approved?

I agree. If these men can no longer honor their vows; then ask to be relieved.

At a private company dissent is expected to be dealt with internally not by taking it up in the papers. These gentlemen would not fare well in the corporate world.

 

[Brendan]

Well, one of them was what Jesus asked: feed my sheep. .

Yep, and Christ told Peter to Rule his sheep. That is commonly translated as the more passive ‘tend’ but Jesus really told Peter to RULE his sheep. The Greek word used, “poimainō”, is the same verb used to describe the relationship a King has towards his people, or an Officer towards his troops.

It means to oversee with command.

It’s the exact same word used in Rev 19:21 to describe Christ’s authority at the Second Coming.

Quote:

From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule (poimainō) them with a rod of iron"

So why don’t these priests accept the Word of God and be ruled by the See of Peter?

 

[catharina]

irishcentral.com/news/Catholic-Spring-uprising-prediction-for-Ireland-over-dissenting-priest-Father-Flannery-147131755.html

I for one say bring it on. I think it would be good for there to be a cleaning of house in the Catholic Church, and if folks can’t get with the program, and refuse to actually BE Catholic, then they make the decision to leave the Church. But do not stay inside and try to destroy it from within.

~Liza

The article is very negative, esp the involvement of “local priests” in dissent.
Actually, it sounds rather like same mess that stirred Chicago in the '60s and '70s.

It will end with departures from the priesthood as it did in Chicago.
May Our Lord bless His Church.

 

[catharina]

… So I guess a priest disagreeing with a teaching you personally subscribe to is bad, but people challenging a Pope when you disagree with him is okay? So it is about what you think, then?

…

You seem to imagine that dissent is really fine in certain circumsatnces.

It is NOT fine for priests or for the laity.
Due to their perceived authority, priests
who dissent can likely cause more harm
than the laity could cause.

Why do you imagine that dissent is really OK?

 

[Hopemercy]

Every now and then there’s predictions of a “Catholic revolt against the Vatican” in one area of the world or another. And it always is much ado about nothing. I’d be surprised if this didn’t just fizzle out and fade away within a few months.

Afterall, just what exactly is this revolt supposed to entail? Church attendance and support are at record lows and trending downwards. What are they going to do now? Steal money instead of failing to give any?

You underestimate the tenacity and stubbornness of the Irish temperament, especially where a religion that is nationalistic is concerned.

Flanerry et al are not going to let go. Interesting that they call themselves Liberal Catholics as if it were a separate church…

Wondering what the Vatican will do…

 

[saveusfromhell]

Not where I was going with that. In fact you probably well aware I don’t have strong feelings one way or the other about the north whether they want to be Irish or part of the union.

[Irish people have been at best nominally Catholic for years and hundreds of thousands of Irish people are non-Catholic/QUOTE]
I know this. What I’m referring to. If you believe what the protestant groupings of Christianity believe, than why would you want to be called catholic? Which is where I believe this is going, maybe get enough people with them to create a schism? We all know the church will not bend or change, so what option can they choose.
So maybe they won’t be looking for the union to be maintained but the feeling towards the pope seems similar

 

[catharina]

Not where I was going with that. In fact you probably well aware I don’t have strong feelings one way or the other about the north whether they want to be Irish or part of the union.

[Irish people have been at best nominally Catholic for years and hundreds of thousands of Irish people are non-Catholic/QUOTE]
I know this. What I’m referring to. If you believe what the protestant groupings of Christianity believe, than why would you want to be called catholic? Which is where I believe this is going, maybe get enough people with them to create a schism? We all know the church will not bend or change, so what option can they choose.

 

[gus]

Isn’t there a Church of Ireland were the can go if unhappy with The Catholic Church.

 

[catharina]

Isn’t there a Church of Ireland were the can go if unhappy with The Catholic Church.

Are you asking if there is a Protestant church in Ireland?

Yes. People can “go” there,
but they will be abandoning the
truth, abandoning the Faith their
fathers preserved for them - often
with their own lives.

 

[pepipop]

online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303772904577335290865863450.html?mod=googlenews_wsj#printMode

*Traditional Catholicism Is Winning - There were 467 new priestly ordinations in the U.S. last year, and Boston’s seminary had to turn away applicants.
*

Possibly, this article sould be sent to the ACP, which is very heartening. These are the type of priests the catholic laity want.