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FaithJoy
Guest
Christians are hated in palestine. Jews are hated in palestine. Christians and Jews are loved in Israel. I support Israel,I know I would be welcomed there. If I were in palestine,I would be constant fear of my life.
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Eric_Hilbert
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manualman
Guest
No fair! You got a secret supply of cool smilies!?!
I still want one with a black eye and one smacking his own head over and over…
I still want one with a black eye and one smacking his own head over and over…
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Ridgerunner
Guest
Not all people in the West Bank live in abominable conditions. Some do, some don’t. Part of the problem there is that Islamic gangs won’t allow a reasonable degree of economic integration with Israel, though it’s hit and miss. As I mentioned before, Israel is the economic powerhouse of the area, and thousands of West Bank Arabs work there. They commute, because it’s a very small place, the whole thing is. But it’s not what it could be. The West Bank could use Israeli knowhow and investment. But Israel learned from the experience after the Oslo Accords that it can be pointless to do it.I can fully understand people from that territory being radicalised. They are forced to live under terrible conditions.
It is an abomination that people were evicted from their homes and houses in 1947 to create Israel.
The continued occupation of territory outside of the 1967 borders perpetuates that injustice.
The Palestinian people deserve full and equal recognition under international law in their own sovereign country.
It is incumbent upon all Roman catholics to support this objective in my opinion.
The U.S., the Saudis and Israel, along with the PLO had a plan for really massive development of Gaza. U.S. and Saudi Arabia put up millions for infrastructure development. Israel agreed to provide water, power and utility infrastructure. the PLO was to provide security. The plan was to build Gaza into a major resort area; an “eastern Riviera” so to speak. But, Arafat stole the money and started the Intifada to cover his perfidy, and it all came to nothing. That is one of the big reasons why the PA got chased out of Gaza and Hamas took over.
A relative of a Palestinian friend of mine was the freely elected mayor of a West Bank town. He worked out a deal with Israel whereby residents of his town could work in Israel, which was very close (everything there is very close). And the residents were jubilant over that. Steady jobs! Money in their pockets! But, seeing that it was working, an offshoot of Black September assassinated the mayor. People got the message very quickly, and it all fell apart. From the radicals’ standpoint, it’s so much better to keep the people in misery because then they’ll do desperate things, and are so much easier to “buy” when they have nothing.
And Christians, the way things are now, have no future in a Palestinian state. Even in Lebanon, where Christians have constitutionally-guaranteed rights and are a lot more numerous than they are in the West Bank, Christians are leaving, as Lebanan increasingly becomes an Islamist Iranian colony. They’re leaving everywhere in the Middle East, and will soon do more of that.
I’m put to mind of something a bishop in Syria said about Assad. As horrible a man as he is, he’s probably the only thing that stands between the Syrian Christians and massacre by the Islamic organizations. He does not want Assad to be removed, and for that reason, and cautioned the west about it.
Lots and lots of Copts supported Mubarak, for that same reason, and rightly so. But nobody listened to them. Now, they’re paying the price of the “Arab Spring”.
There is not the slightest reason to believe the fate of Christians in a “Palestinian state” (a third one…Jordan is also one, as is Gaza.) will be any better than it is in Iraq or Egypt. And personally, I don’t put a lot of stock in the statements of Palestinian Christians. That’s like asking residents of a Sicilian neighborhood what they really think about the mob bosses, or asking a North Korean on the street what he thinks of the “dear leader”. In the West Bank, it’s safe to blame every misfortune on Israel. It’s not safe to openly defy the “party line” dictated by the Palestinian leaders.
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Dave_Noonan
Guest
I don’t think a single one of these statements is true. Have you actually been to these places?Christians are hated in palestine. Jews are hated in palestine. Christians and Jews are loved in Israel. I support Israel,I know I would be welcomed there. If I were in palestine,I would be constant fear of my life.
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antonivs
Guest
I don’t think a single one of these statements is true. Have you actually been to these places?
I taught Business English in Israel and would rather live there than in any of the Arab or Muslim states. The only place I felt repressed was on the Haram esh Sharif/Temple Mount where as a Christian I was forbidden to pray by the Muslim Waqf.
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EzraJacob
Guest
Well I enjoyed sharing views with others.
But as the Mod alluded to, this thread is a ticking bomb. At least thats what I got from his post, and I agree.
This thread has pretty much expired. Only thing that can be discussed now is who is right or not, which usually turns to an ugly fight.
That said, I am out before anyone gets banned. I seen it many times.
Again, thank you all for sharing your views and making good points for both sides.
Ridgerunner, your last post has me thinking. And I guess I will just have to one day go to Israel and Palestine. I do have Jewish ancestry and have been thinking of going there for awhile to work with Catholic organizations to help out with the poor in both Israel and Palestine. I do know that the Copts are being persecuted by the Muslims,and am even helping a man in Egypt with moving if he does. Giving him links to organizations that can help, offering to show him around if he ends up in a place like Philly, etc.
If anyone wants to PM me, feel free.
But as the Mod alluded to, this thread is a ticking bomb. At least thats what I got from his post, and I agree.
This thread has pretty much expired. Only thing that can be discussed now is who is right or not, which usually turns to an ugly fight.
That said, I am out before anyone gets banned. I seen it many times.
Again, thank you all for sharing your views and making good points for both sides.
Ridgerunner, your last post has me thinking. And I guess I will just have to one day go to Israel and Palestine. I do have Jewish ancestry and have been thinking of going there for awhile to work with Catholic organizations to help out with the poor in both Israel and Palestine. I do know that the Copts are being persecuted by the Muslims,and am even helping a man in Egypt with moving if he does. Giving him links to organizations that can help, offering to show him around if he ends up in a place like Philly, etc.
If anyone wants to PM me, feel free.
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Ridgerunner
Guest
I wish you well, but I wouldn’t be too quick to talk about my Jewish ancestry in the West Bank if I were you.I guess I will just have to one day go to Israel and Palestine. I do have Jewish ancestry and have been thinking of going there for awhile to work with Catholic organizations to help out with the poor in both Israel and Palestine.
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Robbinson
Guest
I’m late to this thread - but here goes.
Yes, the Church (Jewish and Gentile believers) together make up “spiritual Israel” (referred to in Galations as the “Israel of God”). In that sense, all Christians share in the promises to Israel (that is, the Gentile believers are grafted into the rootstock and promises of Israel in terms of God’s salvation plan).
However - contra to “Replacement Theology” which is not endorsed by the Church, Christians do not “replace” ethnic Israel - this is made clear in the Catechism. God’s calling to Israel (ethnic Israel) is irrevocable. I believe this means that God is still using unbeleiving Israel for His greater purpose - their disbeleif led to the sharing of the gospel with the Gentiles. They have been spritually blinded, in large part, by God, for His greater purposes - BUT (and its an important “but”), God plans to lift the veil - to recover Israel from Diaspora, return them to the promised land (which scripture makes clear will happen physically before their spiritual rebirth) - then, after the full alotment of Gentiles comes in (Romans 11), “all Israel will be saved”.
This is not “dual covenant” theology (also not taught by the Church), as we are all saved through Christ - but in conjunction with the Church’s doctrine of Invincible Ingorance - salavation remains possible from those blinded to the truth.
As to the state of Israel - its creation again after 2,000 years appears prophetic (and "born in a day - per Isaiah!). The Church does not have an official position on this. Personally - I think its almost impossible to ignore the significance of this sign. That doesn’t mean we must or should “side” with Israel in all respects and they need to work together with their neighbors to respect rights, etc - but I do believe in Israel’s right to exist, in peace - and we will have to wait to see what God’s plans are for the “state” of Israel.
What we do know as a fact from scripture is that “one day” ethnic Israel will return to the promised land - will come to faith and, with Gentile believers, become “one” in Christ. Then, together, they will live under Christ in the “New Jerusalem”.
Blessings,
Brian
Yes, the Church (Jewish and Gentile believers) together make up “spiritual Israel” (referred to in Galations as the “Israel of God”). In that sense, all Christians share in the promises to Israel (that is, the Gentile believers are grafted into the rootstock and promises of Israel in terms of God’s salvation plan).
However - contra to “Replacement Theology” which is not endorsed by the Church, Christians do not “replace” ethnic Israel - this is made clear in the Catechism. God’s calling to Israel (ethnic Israel) is irrevocable. I believe this means that God is still using unbeleiving Israel for His greater purpose - their disbeleif led to the sharing of the gospel with the Gentiles. They have been spritually blinded, in large part, by God, for His greater purposes - BUT (and its an important “but”), God plans to lift the veil - to recover Israel from Diaspora, return them to the promised land (which scripture makes clear will happen physically before their spiritual rebirth) - then, after the full alotment of Gentiles comes in (Romans 11), “all Israel will be saved”.
This is not “dual covenant” theology (also not taught by the Church), as we are all saved through Christ - but in conjunction with the Church’s doctrine of Invincible Ingorance - salavation remains possible from those blinded to the truth.
As to the state of Israel - its creation again after 2,000 years appears prophetic (and "born in a day - per Isaiah!). The Church does not have an official position on this. Personally - I think its almost impossible to ignore the significance of this sign. That doesn’t mean we must or should “side” with Israel in all respects and they need to work together with their neighbors to respect rights, etc - but I do believe in Israel’s right to exist, in peace - and we will have to wait to see what God’s plans are for the “state” of Israel.
What we do know as a fact from scripture is that “one day” ethnic Israel will return to the promised land - will come to faith and, with Gentile believers, become “one” in Christ. Then, together, they will live under Christ in the “New Jerusalem”.
Blessings,
Brian
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EzraJacob
Guest
I only mentioned it few times because it was relevant.I wish you well, but I wouldn’t be too quick to talk about my Jewish ancestry in the West Bank if I were you.
And I wouldn’t be worried. Many non-zionist Jews work along side Palestinians. Infact some Palestinians admit their Jewish origins to lol
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Ridgerunner
Guest
They’ll often admit to their “Crusader” genes too, but that doesn’t mean somebody won’t be eager to take out notional “Crusaders” (i.e. westerners).I only mentioned it few times because it was relevant.
And I wouldn’t be worried. Many non-zionist Jews work along side Palestinians. Infact some Palestinians admit their Jewish origins to lol
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CopticChristian
Guest
The presence of Israel of today in intimately intwined with British Evangelicals that wanted to help God, send Jesus back. This need to establish Israel was a way to help God accomplish conversion of the Jews. The only problem with that is that Israel is a land, not a religous country, and the Israel of God is the Church.As Catholics, who should we support?
Taking into account, the way the Latin Patriarchate of Jerusalem describes the situationyoutube.com/watch?v=DFC-k9MgbaE
Shouldn’t it mean for us to support our brothers and sisters in Christ? Not to mention the Pope has shown his support for a Palestinian statehood, though I know since it is not doctrine we may disagree on his take.
PS, to mods, if this is in the wrong section of the forum, I am truly sorry. I think this issue does concern social justice. If I am wrong, forgive me.
I have heard ignorant dispensationalists say the God is married to Israel. This would make him a Mormon as the Bride of Christ is The Church, the Israel of God.
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CopticChristian
Guest
Signs are done by God. Israel appeared by the work of man. Abraham was 100 years old and by a miracle became the father of many nations. The British evangelicals were heavily involved in the establishment of Israel, no miracle, just men and Protestant politics.I’m late to this thread - but here goes.
Yes, the Church (Jewish and Gentile believers) together make up “spiritual Israel” (referred to in Galations as the “Israel of God”). In that sense, all Christians share in the promises to Israel (that is, the Gentile believers are grafted into the rootstock and promises of Israel in terms of God’s salvation plan).
However - contra to “Replacement Theology” which is not endorsed by the Church, Christians do not “replace” ethnic Israel - this is made clear in the Catechism. God’s calling to Israel (ethnic Israel) is irrevocable. I believe this means that God is still using unbeleiving Israel for His greater purpose - their disbeleif led to the sharing of the gospel with the Gentiles. They have been spritually blinded, in large part, by God, for His greater purposes - BUT (and its an important “but”), God plans to lift the veil - to recover Israel from Diaspora, return them to the promised land (which scripture makes clear will happen physically before their spiritual rebirth) - then, after the full alotment of Gentiles comes in (Romans 11), “all Israel will be saved”.
This is not “dual covenant” theology (also not taught by the Church), as we are all saved through Christ - but in conjunction with the Church’s doctrine of Invincible Ingorance - salavation remains possible from those blinded to the truth.
As to the state of Israel - its creation again after 2,000 years appears prophetic (and "born in a day - per Isaiah!). The Church does not have an official position on this. Personally - I think its almost impossible to ignore the significance of this sign. That doesn’t mean we must or should “side” with Israel in all respects and they need to work together with their neighbors to respect rights, etc - but I do believe in Israel’s right to exist, in peace - and we will have to wait to see what God’s plans are for the “state” of Israel.
What we do know as a fact from scripture is that “one day” ethnic Israel will return to the promised land - will come to faith and, with Gentile believers, become “one” in Christ. Then, together, they will live under Christ in the “New Jerusalem”.
Blessings,
Brian
scribd.com/doc/8124599/Britian-Politics-Evangelicals-and-Israel
This is a sign that Dispensationalist aided the UN to establish Isreal. This is not the work of God in my opinion.Similar efforts were under way in England, led by the social reformer Lord Shaftesbury,
who, like Blackstone, was so taken with Darby’s eschatology that he translated it into a
political agenda. These seeds of the Christian Zionist movement preceded Jewish
Zionism by several years. Loni Shaftesbury is also credited with coining an early version
of the slogan adopted by Jewish Zionist fathers Max Nordau and Theodor Herzl: “A land
of no people for a people with no land.” Both Lord Arthur Balfour, author of the famous
1917 Balfour Declaration, and Prime Minister David Lloyd George, the two most
powerful men in British foreign policy at the close of World War I, were raised in dispensationalist churches and were publicly committed to the Zionist agenda for “biblical” and colonialist reasons.
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hamba2han
Guest
The problem with Christians is that they are inclined to “think” way, way too much when it comes to matters of faith.
Just by reading the posts in this thread alone, one can easily see this i.e. terms like “think”, “opinion” and “guess” crop up just so very frequently in their deliberations on whether to support the present-day state of Israel.
By comparison, Muslims are not permitted this “luxury” of forming our own opinion when it comes to matters of faith.
**“It is not fitting for a Believer, man or woman, when a matter has been decided by Allah and His Messenger to have any option about their decision: if any one disobeys Allah and His Messenger, he is indeed on a clearly wrong Path.” **(Aayat 36 Surah Ahzaab)
And this is the reason why Muslims have great difficulty understanding the approach of the Christian “followers” of Jesus Christ (pbuh).
When Jesus (pbuh) says the things that he says about Israel in the New Testament as I have pointed out in my previous posts, do his professed “followers” from the Christian faith who choose to support Zionist Israel even care to listen what he is telling them?
It is painfully obvious to me that they value their own “opinion” or that of their church leaders much more than the words of Jesus Christ (pbuh) as recorded in their very own New Testament.
An idle mind is the devil’s workshop and faith in the teachings of Jesus Christ (pbuh) is an effective remedy to prevent this from happening.
The Devil and in the particular case of Zionist Israel, the ‘synagogue of Satan’ that Jesus (pbuh) warned about in the Book of Revelation loves it when purported “followers” of Jesus Christ (pbuh) choose to ignore his words as recorded in the New Testament and instead rely on their own thought processes when forming their “opinions” on matters of faith.
Just by reading the posts in this thread alone, one can easily see this i.e. terms like “think”, “opinion” and “guess” crop up just so very frequently in their deliberations on whether to support the present-day state of Israel.
By comparison, Muslims are not permitted this “luxury” of forming our own opinion when it comes to matters of faith.
**“It is not fitting for a Believer, man or woman, when a matter has been decided by Allah and His Messenger to have any option about their decision: if any one disobeys Allah and His Messenger, he is indeed on a clearly wrong Path.” **(Aayat 36 Surah Ahzaab)
And this is the reason why Muslims have great difficulty understanding the approach of the Christian “followers” of Jesus Christ (pbuh).
When Jesus (pbuh) says the things that he says about Israel in the New Testament as I have pointed out in my previous posts, do his professed “followers” from the Christian faith who choose to support Zionist Israel even care to listen what he is telling them?
It is painfully obvious to me that they value their own “opinion” or that of their church leaders much more than the words of Jesus Christ (pbuh) as recorded in their very own New Testament.
An idle mind is the devil’s workshop and faith in the teachings of Jesus Christ (pbuh) is an effective remedy to prevent this from happening.
The Devil and in the particular case of Zionist Israel, the ‘synagogue of Satan’ that Jesus (pbuh) warned about in the Book of Revelation loves it when purported “followers” of Jesus Christ (pbuh) choose to ignore his words as recorded in the New Testament and instead rely on their own thought processes when forming their “opinions” on matters of faith.
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Eric_Hilbert
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