Catholic take on Palestine v Israel issue

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Hamba,

Before the Gentiles converted…the beginning Christian Church was 100% Jewish, including Jesus Christ.

Those quotes you used in red are meaning something else and it is not labelling all Jews as such.
 
Ridgerunner said:
Characterizing it as “illegal” doesn’t make it so. What authority has legal jurisdiction over Israel?
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Manualman, Ridgerunner,

As I see it, what’s actually written in the lawbooks and UN resolutions don’t really mean anything for political relations and policy.

As far as Israel’s concerned (most of) the settlements are legal, no one can forcibly stop Israel from furthering them, so totting clauses from Resolution XYZ doesn’t actually mean anything useful.
Ridgerunner said:
The grossly anti-semitic UN certainly doesn’t.
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I don’t think the UN as a body is anti-Semitic, although it’s no close friend of Israel.
Ridgerunner said:
Think about what you just said. Israel is heavily guarded and so are Israeli settlements in the West Bank. Why? Because if they didn’t do it, the Israelis would be killed, that’s why.
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I mean, then you could ask why would ‘they’ want to kill Israelis, and open another can of worms.
Ridgerunner said:
Are Arab Palestinians in Israel forced to build walls around their homes and barriers against Jewish suicide bombers? No. They live in peace.
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The better term for the Arabs that live in Israel with Israeli citizenship is ‘Israeli Arabs.’

And yes, it’s true, the Israeli Arabs enjoy a security and liberty I don’t think we’d see in a future Palestinian state for a while. They may live in peace, but that doesn’t mean it’s peachy. Israeli Arabs face very real discrimination in Israel (but not as exaggerated as apartheid racism) in education, employment, and health. Israel has sometimes been slow to correct these problems.
Ridgerunner said:
Arabs are able to live in peace in Israel, but no Jew is able to live in peace in any Middle Eastern state except Israel. What the whole thing really exemplifies is not Israeli perfidy but the perfidy of the Muslim world that won’t let a Jew live in peace. That’s the problem. The real one. But for that, there would have been peace long ago.

And it’s getting to where Christians can’t live in the Middle East anymore either. Are we to blame them for that as well? No, let’s put the blame on the ones who are driving them out, and realize that the Israelis are facing the very same thing and have decided that, no, we’ll fight first.
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I don’t think anti-Semitic spew justifies any error of the Israeli government.
 
hamba2han said:
I know your afflictions and your poverty—yet you are rich! I know about the slander of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan. … (Revelation 2:9)

I will make those who are of the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews though they are not, but are liars—I will make them come and fall down at your feet and acknowledge that I have loved you. … (Revelation 3:9)

This, according to the New Testament, is what Jesus Christ (pbuh) said about those who claim to be Jews i.e. they are of the synagogue of Satan.

Who then today are claiming to be Jews?

Extensive historical research and DNA studies show that the present-day descendants of the ancient 12 tribes of Israel include the Pashtuns of Afghanistan and the Lemba people of Zimbabwe and South Africa.

And so, why are Zionist Jews claiming sole inheritance rights to the land?.. And this is especially galling when we also take into account similar genetic studies which show that the majority of the Jews in Israel do NOT even have a Semitic origin.

Why then are these people always brandishing the anti-Semitic card at people who oppose their evil policies and actions??

A good way to determine whether something is good or evil would be to apply the Ten Commandments.

You shall not steal → Who is stealing Palestinian land?

You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor → Who accused the Iraqis of developing WMDs and are now saying the same thing about Iran?

You shall not covet anything that belongs to your neighbor → Who covets East Jerusalem?

The answer to all of the 3 questions above is the bogus Jews i.e. the synagogue of Satan that Jesus Christ (pbuh) warned about in the Book of Revelation (Verses 2:9 & 3:9)

Again, when determining whether or not to support the present state of Israel, Christians really do need to decide who to believe i.e. the claims of the Zionist Jews… OR the words of Jesus Christ (pbuh) as recorded in the New Testament.
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Ridiculous.
 
Ridgerunner said:
Characterizing it as “illegal” doesn’t make it so. What authority has legal jurisdiction over Israel? The grossly anti-semitic UN certainly doesn’t.
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I’m surprised at you, Ridge. These settlements aren’t just illegal from the Palestinian perspective. They have no basis in Israeli law either. Their laws work a lot like ours. When land is acquired by the nation, ownership defaults to the government. The government can choose to sell portions to private ownership or not. Legitimate Israeli settlements take place when people buy land, legally subdivide it, register title and follow Israeli municipal law for development. Many of these recent settlements have no basis or standing in Israeli law. These right wing extremist groups simply assemble building materials and resources and squat (the legal term) on the land. If they stay long enough, the government generally caves in and grants them legal status, not to mention fights off attacks by angered Palestinians. This has occurred for decades over there. It does nothing but pour gasoline on the fire and it needs to stop pronto.
 
Bezant said:
And yes, it’s true, the Israeli Arabs enjoy a security and liberty I don’t think we’d see in a future Palestinian state for a while. They may live in peace, but that doesn’t mean it’s peachy. Israeli Arabs face very real discrimination in Israel (but not as exaggerated as apartheid racism) in education, employment, and health. Israel has sometimes been slow to correct these problems.

I don’t think anti-Semitic spew justifies any error of the Israeli government.
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Not sure I understand the last sentence, so I’ll go to the first paragraph above. You can explain, of course, if you wish.

I don’t particularly doubt there is discrimination by Jews against Arabs in Israel or vice-versa, any more than I doubt there is dicrimination by whites against blacks in the U.S. or vice versa. But it has to be admitted that Arab Israelis have the right to vote and have representatives in the Knesset and the government. There are Arab Israelis in the Israel Defense Force as well, including some high-ranking officers. Since they’re not subject to the draft, they are obviously volunteers.

Not perfect. No. No state is perfect.

I have the benefit or perhaps disadvantage of knowing some Palestinian businessmen personally. One of the worst kept secrets in the region is that Palestinian Arabs and Israelis are entirely capable of getting along, and do on a daily basis. That’s a small place. Anybody of any socioeconomic consequence knows all the others on his level, as would be the case in a very small U.S. state. But it’s also true, and any Palestinian who knows you well and trusts you and knows anything about how things work there, will tell you the biggest problem in the region is actually the “gangs”. Some are Islamic radicals. Some are secular power-mongers pretending to be Islamic radicals. Some are ordinary criminals. Some are psychopaths. Some are “business people” like the Iranian clerics are “business people” (similiar to Mafiosi engaging in legitimate business). Some are in the pay of the Wahabbists of Saudi Arabia. Some are in the pay of Iran. Sometimes the Arab-on-Arab violence is just tribal and nothing else. Sometimes nobody knows.
 
manualman said:
I’m surprised at you, Ridge. These settlements aren’t just illegal from the Palestinian perspective. They have no basis in Israeli law either. Their laws work a lot like ours. When land is acquired by the nation, ownership defaults to the government. The government can choose to sell portions to private ownership or not. Legitimate Israeli settlements take place when people buy land, legally subdivide it, register title and follow Israeli municipal law for development. Many of these recent settlements have no basis or standing in Israeli law. These right wing extremist groups simply assemble building materials and resources and squat (the legal term) on the land. If they stay long enough, the government generally caves in and grants them legal status, not to mention fights off attacks by angered Palestinians. This has occurred for decades over there. It does nothing but pour gasoline on the fire and it needs to stop pronto.
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There may certainly be Israeli squatters in the West Bank. Likely there are Palestinian squatters there too. There are Arab squatters in Israel. There are squatters in every state in the U.S. as well; probably in every county. However, I am not seeing where this is the rule in the West Bank any more than it is elsewhere. I recall reading not long ago about a hugely wealthy Palestinian who built a palatial home on some prime acreage in the West Bank. He was very pleased that he got it bought before Israelis did.

And if you were an Israeli and bought land in the West Bank, you would fortify it too, unless you were a fool.

But the barriers into Israel itself are another thing altogether. Israel guards its border, and rightly so. Nevertheless, thousands of Palestinian Arabs commute to Israel to work every day.
 
This is utterly unrelated to squatting anywhere else. The Israeli government has forcibly refused to allow displaced people to return to THEIR OWN land after a conflict (for admittedly reasonable security reasons). That’s a problem that’s already hard to solve. But it isn’t getting easier when that Israeli government turns a blind eye to its own citizens illegally laying claim to land that belongs to someone in exile.

You refer to Israelis who “bought” their land. This isn’t about them. This about the settlements that have been built on stolen land. There are legitimate spoils of war in conflicts where it is difficult to assign all the blame. But in this case there are thousands of innocent Palestinian civilians that have lost everything due to no fault of their own (personally, at least). Every time a new settlement is built on their land, peace becomes further away.
 
ciero said:
I have attended the Melkite Church for over 25 years now and have NEVER met a Melkite (or any Christian Arab for that matter) who supports the illegal state of “Israel”. I find that very hard to believe (and stomach)!

SUPPORT PALESTINE!!!
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I support Palestine.👍👍👍

God bless

jesus g
 
manualman said:
This is utterly unrelated to squatting anywhere else. The Israeli government has forcibly refused to allow displaced people to return to THEIR OWN land after a conflict (for admittedly reasonable security reasons). That’s a problem that’s already hard to solve. But it isn’t getting easier when that Israeli government turns a blind eye to its own citizens illegally laying claim to land that belongs to someone in exile.

You refer to Israelis who “bought” their land. This isn’t about them. This about the settlements that have been built on stolen land. There are legitimate spoils of war in conflicts where it is difficult to assign all the blame. But in this case there are thousands of innocent Palestinian civilians that have lost everything due to no fault of their own (personally, at least). Every time a new settlement is built on their land, peace becomes further away.
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I’m not saying it’s right. I’m just saying it’s not unusual. If I go out and squat on my neighbor’s 40 acres right here in the U.S., and if the owner comes along and tries to reclaim it from me, the Sheriff won’t do anything to help him. He has to sue me or nothing. And if he doesn’t do it for ten years, I own it and he doesn’t, and the Sheriff will throw him off the land if he comes on it, not me. And he and all his kin will resent me for it.

Again, I’m not condoning it morally. I’m just saying it’s not peculiar to the situation in the West Bank. And, again, there are Arab squatters in Israel too.

But it must also be said that the Israeli government did forcibly remove Israeli citizens from Gaza. Remember all the greenhouses Hamas trashed after the Israelis left? Israelis owned those.

One might think the West Bank Palestinians would want to make peace with Israel in order to get the Israeli government to do the same thing there, at least with the “squatters”. But frankly, their leaders evidently think it’s to their advantage to keep up the hatred level instead of actually making peace. Same old story, vintage 1948. Meanwhile, the Arafat money that could perhaps buy land for Palestinians is invested in the U.S. by the P.A. Well, they did let Arafat’s widow keep millions of it in her Swiss bank accounts. They did do that much spreading it around.
 
Bezant said:
Christianity is weird like that.
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Christianity is weird?
Ephesians 2
11
Therefore, remember that at one time you, Gentiles in the flesh, called the uncircumcision by those called the circumcision, which is done in the flesh by human hands,
12
were at that time without Christ, alienated from the community of Israel 7 and strangers to the covenants of promise, without hope and without God in the world.
13
But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have become near by the blood of Christ.
14
8 For he is our peace, he who made both one and broke down the dividing wall of enmity, through his flesh,
15
abolishing the law with its commandments and legal claims, that he might create in himself one new person 9 in place of the two, thus establishing peace,
16
and might reconcile both with God, in one body, through the cross, putting that enmity to death by it.
17
He came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near,
18
for through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father.
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usccb.org/nab/bible/ephesians/ephesians2.htm

Id say Paul is talking about no more Chosen People and Gentile division, but one people, Gods People. Who in Christ make up the chosen people.

Ephesians 3
1 Because of this, I, Paul, a prisoner of Christ 2 (Jesus) for you Gentiles–
2
if, as I suppose, you have heard of the stewardship 3 of God’s grace that was given to me for your benefit,
3
(namely, that) the mystery 4 was made known to me by revelation, as I have written briefly earlier.
4
When you read this you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ,
5
which was not made known to human beings in other generations as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit,
6
that the Gentiles are coheirs, members of the same body, and copartners in the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel.
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usccb.org/nab/bible/ephesians/ephesians3.htm
 
No quarrel from me there. The Palestinian leadership in the past 60 years has been pathetic at best, evil at worst. This doesn’t lessen the injustices done to the Palestinian people as a whole.
 
EzraJacob said:
This is what I was thinking. I have contacts with Palestinian Christians. Mostly the Catholics over there. And have even seen a video from the Latin Patriarchate of Jerusalem who condemns the Zionist and their oppressive government.

I feel as a Catholic I can not accept a government that uses similar tactics as fascist in other ME countries, such as arresting peaceful protesters. Something that if happened here in America would be condemned and outrage everyone
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I have met many, many Christians in the M.E. (both within Israel and in the West Bank; Melkite, Orthodox and Protestants) and not a single one of them supported the tactics employed by the State of Israel.
 
I support the concept of a Palestinian State.

I also support the concept of the State of Israel within it’s 1967 borders.

As an Irish Roman Catholic, I am also a member of the Palestinian Solidarity movement.
 
KathleenGee said:
Hamba,

Before the Gentiles converted…the beginning Christian Church was 100% Jewish, including Jesus Christ.

Those quotes you used in red are meaning something else and it is not labelling all Jews as such.
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There is an easy way to identify evil, regardless of whether or not the perpetrators of the evil are real or fake Jews.

In the incident when Jesus Christ (pbuh) went ballistic and threw out the moneychangers in the Temple, this clearly showed that he viewed usury as an abomination against the Lord and one needs only look at what has happened to the world’s financial markets to realize just what a great evil usury is.

Since Zionists control the world’s financial institutions and they simply refuse to abolish usury, then how can those who say that they are the followers of Jesus Christ (pbuh) support the Zionist state of Israel?

Followers need to actually follow the one whom they profess to follow.

There is absolutely nothing that Jesus (pbuh) said or did which is recorded in the NT that would indicate him giving any kind of moral support for the present-day state of Israel.
 
I have to admit that one attribute that I have kept from my childhood days as an evangelical Protestant is my Zionism (though I am sure that my stance is not extreme as those of a lot of evangelicals; and hey, I’m an American conservative, so what do you expect me to say about Israel?). Plus, the constant shrinking of countries due to nationalistic pretensions (remember how Yugoslavia collapsed?) has always bugged me.
 
hamba2han said:
There is an easy way to identify evil, regardless of whether or not the perpetrators of the evil are real or fake Jews.
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Your right.

Muslims are a bit more evil then Jews though, so your slander of all Jews is hypocritical.

Zionist may attacks Christians and hurt Christians in the holy land. But Muslims are just as guilty, if not worse. That is why a bomb went off in a Catholic Church in Iraq last week. And why Coptic youth are getting beheaded. Or how Muslim men attack Pregnant Copts.

So before you go and slander all Jews for what the right-wing Zionist have done, you should think about what your people do.

At least you will find Jews speaking out against Zionism. Something you wont find when it comes to Muslims persecuting Christians.
 
hamba2han said:
In the incident when Jesus Christ (pbuh) went ballistic and threw out the moneychangers in the Temple, this clearly showed that he viewed usury as an abomination against the Lord and one needs only look at what has happened to the world’s financial markets to realize just what a great evil usury is.

Since Zionists control the world’s financial institutions and they simply refuse to abolish usury, then how can those who say that they are the followers of Jesus Christ (pbuh) support the Zionist state of Israel?
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Also, your argument is based off of an anti-semitic myth that Jews control the worlds bank.

Nazis made the same claims.

Your argument is not worth taken serious, and shows everyone you are not a legit Anti-Zionist. But a Jew-hateing anti-semite.
 
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