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MarkAA
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Lutherans do believe in free will. The post that said otherwise is in error. Lutherans aren’t Calvinists.
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rr1213
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True, but Lutherans believe in single predestination.
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lak611
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I posted a thread about Calvinism vs. Arminianism and people were saying that most Lutherans believe at least 2 or 3 of the points of the T.U.L.I.P. in Calvinism. I’m a little confused here.
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Syele
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Yeah Lutherans sort of mix it up. (My presonal thought on this is that it is illogical and makes the Bible contradict itself to mix it up. They admit this and say it’s just because the ways of God are too hard for us to understand.)
Read this Blog entry for a good explaination:
metalutheran.blogspot.com/2005/02/lutheranism-between-calvinism-and.html
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lak611
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Thank you. That blog is good.
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Syele
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Glad to be of help.Thank you. That blog is good.
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Lampo
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Thanks. Do you know the chapter and verse in Numbers?
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Lampo
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Okay. The pastor never stated that one can lose his/her salvation. This pastor is from Milwaukee and thus, share this thought…He said Jeffrey Dahmer, before he was beaten to death by other inmates, was couseling with a Christian pastor and accepted Jesus Christ as his personal Lord and Savior. Then he asked the question, “Did Jeffrey Dahmer go to Heaven?” The class responded, “yes.” The pastor said, “Yes. Why?” The pastor said because there is not a sin that Jesus can’t forgive. In my mind, I’m thinking God is the only one that knows Jeffrey Dahmer’s salvation. I’m also thinking to myself, what if Jeffrey accepted Jesus Christ as his personal Lord and Savior while he was in Ohio, BEFORE he committed all of his heinous acts? Would the pastor and this class have the same answer?
The Arminian view would have it that if Jeffrey Dahmer said he wants to meed God in Heaven when he dies, goes to church regularly, etc. But on the side, he commits all of his horrible acts and doesn’t get a chance to ask for forgiveness before he dies, he would go to Heaven?
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Syele
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In the Arminian view, really only God and Jeffery Dahmer would know. It’s not about what sins you commited so much as the state of your belief in God and your desire to follow Him.
Now, it’s granted that for every sin a wedge of seperation is placed between you and God. When you repent, that wedge is removed. Mortal sins cause a larger wedge than venial sins woud. When those sins cause a large enough seperation between a person and God the step for the person to say they don’t need or want God in their lives anymore becomes easy. When they make that decision, they are no longer going to heaven.
Then the question would be, Did Jeffery truly repent after each act? How would any of us know for sure? Chances are, he did not, after all he kept doing them. But did he take that final step to totally reject God? No one would have any idea except Jeffery Dahmer and God.
The pastors question, though assumes that Jeffery repented of his sins and truly desired to follow God at the end of His life. With that assumption we can say he went to heaven. It is only an assumption though because we don’t know what he really believed in his heart, only what he claimed.
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Lampo
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Today in class the Lutheran pastor said that people can go to hell with their sins forgiven because Jesus died for everyone. He said that people go to hell because they reject Jesus’ gift of dying on the cross.
The Pastor also asked how for back the Catholic belief of the Immaculate Conception goes back. Lutherans believe Mary was a sinner.
He also said the Jesus was baptized because he did everything we as humans go through.
Any comments/suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
The Pastor also asked how for back the Catholic belief of the Immaculate Conception goes back. Lutherans believe Mary was a sinner.
He also said the Jesus was baptized because he did everything we as humans go through.
Any comments/suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
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Syele
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This is consistant with the Arminian view. Jesus died for all of us be we have to accept the gift of salvation offered to us. Many do not and go to hell because they refuse to accept the gift God offers. IF I were explaining it though, I wouldn’t say they were already forgiven, they were already OFFERED forgiveness. But then it is sort of semantics. If someone gives you a gift and you refuse to open it and put it on your shelf instead do you have it or not? Either way you’d get no benefit from it.
I personally do not know of any protestant denomination that believes Mary never sinned. I would have been very surprised if this Pastor had believed as the Catholics on this point.
I’m guessing the Pastor was referring to something like the above quote. Every Protestant church I have attended has taught this.
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mercygate
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Is this really what he said? I find this confusing.
The belief goes back to the 3rd century, I believe. Check the links on CA home page. It is a matter that would have been articulated along with the dogmatic definitions concerning the person of Jesus as true God and true man.
That’s kind of how Jesus puts it when John challenges him about it.
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Preacher_Vern
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LutheranDK
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I know
But first of all I need to know what “immaculate conception” refers to - since English is not my native language, most of my “theological vocabulary” is in Danish.
Do you mean:
1: Do Lutherans believe that Mary was a virgin when she gave birth to Jesus?
or
2: Do Lutherans believe that Mary was concieved without the stain of original sin?
To 1), the answer is a resounding YES. The Bible says it clearly.
To 2), the answer is an equally resounding NO - it is counter-scriptural.
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TinaK
Guest
Oh, flying potatoes! Now you know why some of us LCMSers call it the “LCMess”. Just a couple of weeks ago my pastor debunked OSAS in Bible Class.
Does this pastor use the Small Catechism in this class? Just curious.
Hearing stuff like this makes me want to swim the Tiber.
TinaK
still somewhere between Augsburg and Rome
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Orionthehunter
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Lampo, you should be simply applauded for being willing to learn more about your wife’s faith and especially applauded because you did so without being asked (nagged
).Because marriage is not 50/50 but you are to give 100% and expect nothing in return for what you give, you should neither insist that your wife attend RCIA nor use your volunteering to go to this class with her as something to hold over her.
My only advice is I think it important to let her know that you are not doing this as an investigation on a potential conversion. Just a desire to know more about her faith.
If she later inquires a desire to know more about our faith, you can then invite her to do RCIA.
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mschrank
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Of course, nobody noticed this for well over 1500 years…
…when Luther on one of his off days from being a Monk, stumbled upon a pretty sweet garage sale. He picked up a book, and it was called “The Bible”. He read it, and realized the Catholic Church was peddling lies.
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expectthebest
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How is it counter to Scripture?
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c659smith
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The next two post are what Luther believed, take this to the Pastor and ask why he broke off from the true Lutheran doctrine?
Martin Luther, Founder of the Reform, Speaks on Mary
In his sermon of August 15, 1522, the last time Martin Luther preached on the Feast of the Assumption, he stated:
There can be no doubt that the Virgin Mary is in heaven. How it happened we do not know. And since the Holy Spirit has told us nothing about it, we can make of it no article of faith . . . It is enough to know that she lives in Christ.
The veneration of Mary is inscribed in the very depths of the human heart. (Sermon, September 1, 1522).
[She is the] highest woman and the noblest gem in Christianity after Christ . . . She is nobility, wisdom, and holiness personified. We can never honor her enough. Still honor and praise must be given to her in such a way as to injure neither Christ nor the Scriptures. (Sermon, Christmas, 1531).
No woman is like you. You are more than Eve or Sarah, blessed above all nobility, wisdom, and sanctity. (Sermon, Feast of the Visitation, 1537).
One should honor Mary as she herself wished and as she expressed it in the Magnificat. She praised God for his deeds. How then can we praise her? The true honor of Mary is the honor of God, the praise of God’s grace . . . Mary is nothing for the sake of herself, but for the sake of Christ . . . Mary does not wish that we come to her, but through her to God. (Explanation of the Magnificat, 1521).
Luther gives the Blessed Virgin the exalted position of “Spiritual Mother” for Christians:
It is the consolation and the superabundant goodness of God, that man is able to exult in such a treasure. Mary is his true Mother … (Sermon, Christmas, 1522)
Mary is the Mother of Jesus and the Mother of all of us even though it was Christ alone who reposed on her knees . . . If he is ours, we ought to be in his situation; there where he is, we ought also to be and all that he has ought to be ours, and his mother is also our mother. (Sermon, Christmas, 1529).
Martin Luther had the belief of Mary’s Immaculate Conception, Luther’s words follow:
It is a sweet and pious belief that the infusion of Mary’s soul was effected without original sin; so that in the very infusion of her soul she was also purified from original sin and adorned with God’s gifts, receiving a pure soul infused by God; thus from the first moment she began to live she was free from all sin" (Sermon: “On the Day of the Conception of the Mother of God,” 1527).
She is full of grace, proclaimed to be entirely without sin- something exceedingly great. For God’s grace fills her with everything good and makes her devoid of all evil. (Personal {“Little”} Prayer Book, 1522
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c659smith
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Here is Martin Luther on the perpetual viginity of Mary.
Martin Luther on Mary’s Perpetual Virginity
Here are some of the founders of refom commenting on Mary:
Christ, our Savior, was the real and natural fruit of Mary’s virginal womb . . . This was without the cooperation of a man, and she remained a virgin after that.
{Luther’s Works, eds. Jaroslav Pelikan (vols. 1-30) & Helmut T. Lehmann (vols. 31-55), St. Louis: Concordia Pub. House (vols. 1-30); Philadelphia: Fortress Press (vols. 31-55), 1955, v.22:23 / Sermons on John, chaps. 1-4 (1539) }
Christ . . . was the only Son of Mary, and the Virgin Mary bore no children besides Him . . . I am inclined to agree with those who declare that ‘brothers’ really mean ‘cousins’ here, for Holy Writ and the Jews always call cousins brothers.
{Pelikan, ibid., v.22:214-15 / Sermons on John, chaps. 1-4 (1539) }
A new lie about me is being circulated. I am supposed to have preached and written that Mary, the mother of God, was not a virgin either before or after the birth of Christ . . .
{Pelikan, ibid.,v.45:199 / That Jesus Christ was Born a Jew (1523) }
Scripture does not say or indicate that she later lost her virginity . . .
When Matthew [1:25] says that Joseph did not know Mary carnally until she had brought forth her son, it does not follow that he knew her subsequently; on the contrary, it means that he never did know her . . . This babble . . . is without justification . . . he has neither noticed nor paid any attention to either Scripture or the common idiom.
{Pelikan, ibid.,v.45:206,212-3 / That Jesus Christ was Born a Jew (1523) }
Editor Jaroslav Pelikan (Lutheran) adds:
Luther . . . does not even consider the possibility that Mary might have had other children than Jesus. This is consistent with his lifelong acceptance of the idea of the perpetual virginity of Mary.
{Pelikan, ibid.,v.22:214-5}
“. . . she is full of grace, proclaimed to be entirely without sin. . . . God’s grace fills her with everything good and makes her devoid of all evil. . . . God is with her, meaning that all she did or left undone is divine and the action of God in her. Moreover, God guarded and protected her from all that might be hurtful to her.”
Ref: Luther’s Works, American edition, vol. 43, p. 40, ed. H. Lehmann, Fortress, 1968
“. . . she is rightly called not only the mother of the man, but also the Mother of God. . . . it is certain that Mary is the Mother of the real and true God.”
Ref: Sermon on John 14. 16: Luther’s Works (St. Louis, ed. Jaroslav, Pelican, Concordia. vol. 24. p. 107)
“Christ our Savior was the real and natural fruit of Mary’s virginal womb. . . . This was without the cooperation of a man, and she remained a virgin after that.”
(REf: On the Gospel of St. John: Luther’s Works, vol. 22. p. 23, ed. Jaroslav Pelican, Concordia, 1957)
“Men have crowded all her glory into a single phrase: The Mother of God. No one can say anything greater of her, though he had as many tongues as there are leaves on the trees.” (From the Commentary on the Magnificat.)
Commentaries on Luther
“. . . in the resolutions of the 95 theses Luther rejects every blasphemy against the Virgin, and thinks that one should ask for pardon for any evil said or thought against her.” (Ref: Wm. J. Cole, “Was Luther a Devotee of Mary?” in Marian Studies 1970, p. 116
“In Luther’s Explanation of the Magnificat in 1521, he begins and ends with an invocation to Mary, which Wright feels compelled to call ‘surprising’”.
(David F. Wright, Chosen by God: Mary in Evangelical Perspecive, London: Marshall Pickering, 1989, p. 178, Cited from Faith & Reason, Spring 1994, p. 6.)
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