Catholic teacher under fire

[Pulvis]

"The Catholic diocese of Orlando has reprimanded a teacher for distributing writings to students from one of the Church’s saints that were critical of Islam. A representative of the diocese called the teacher’s actions an “unfortunate exhibit of disrespect.”

lifesitenews.com/news/catholic-teacher-under-fire-for-passing-out-saints-criticism-of-islam

jihadwatch.org/2017/04/florida-catholic-diocese-of-orlando-reprimands-school-teacher-for-quoting-saint-on-islam

ocala.com/news/20170419/ocala-catholic-school-teacher-reprimanded-over-anti-muslim-reading

So this is what we have come to?

 

[jesucated]

"The Catholic diocese of Orlando has reprimanded a teacher for distributing writings to students from one of the Church’s saints that were critical of Islam. A representative of the diocese called the teacher’s actions an “unfortunate exhibit of disrespect.”

lifesitenews.com/news/catholic-teacher-under-fire-for-passing-out-saints-criticism-of-islam

jihadwatch.org/2017/04/florida-catholic-diocese-of-orlando-reprimands-school-teacher-for-quoting-saint-on-islam

ocala.com/news/20170419/ocala-catholic-school-teacher-reprimanded-over-anti-muslim-reading

So this is what we have come to?

After reading the articles, I think this school made exactly the right decision. I applaud them.

 

[abucs]

I think this should be a matter of balancing truth and charity.

Where the balance lies regarding the activities of this teacher I find it hard to comment meaningfully unless I am directly involved.

 

[Pulvis]

Fr. Dwight Longenecker had an interesting article regarding this sort of relativistic thinking in 2015.

theimaginativeconservative.org/2015/05/relativism-and-the-antichrist.html

And that is where we are headed.

 

[dshix]

A shame that the diocese would choose political correctness over truth.

 

[jesucated]

A shame that the diocese would choose political correctness over truth.

While I appreciate your contributing to the conversation, I object to calling what was presented by the teacher “truth.”

 

[Wedge_Antilles]

While I appreciate your contributing to the conversation, I object to calling what was presented by the teacher “truth.”

While Saints are not infallible, which Saints are we allowed to pick and choose writings from to present to Catholic students?

The Diocese would be served to specifically say which part’s of Bosco’s writings they believed were false, which would lend to an actual discussion that could bear fruit.

As it stands, it comes off as “we didn’t like the meanness of Saint John Bosco as it may offend people” without actually pointing to anything specific. Let’s ban people from discussing the writings of Dorthy Day or JPII while we are at it. I’d be very disheartened if I was a Catholic educator.

 

[jesucated]

While Saints are not infallible, which Saints are we allowed to pick and choose writings from to present to Catholic students?

The Diocese would be served to specifically say which part’s of Bosco’s writings they believed were false, which would lend to an actual discussion that could bear fruit.

As it stands, it comes off as “we didn’t like the meanness of Saint John Bosco as it may offend people” without actually pointing to anything specific. Let’s ban people from discussing the writings of Dorthy Day or JPII while we are at it. I’d be very disheartened if I was a Catholic educator.

What was presented, according to the links, does not reflect anything in the Catechism and certain runs counter to the words and sentiments of the pope.

These things may have been written by a saint, but they are vile nonetheless.

 

[dshix]

While I appreciate your contributing to the conversation, I object to calling what was presented by the teacher “truth.”

Well, this shouldn’t be too difficult to resolve.

Which parts of what the teacher quoted (St. Bosco’s words) were untrue?

You may be surprised to learn that much of it is quite true, though strongly worded. Just because something is not worded in a pleasant way does not mean it is untrue. Islam was, indeed, spread by military force. It was, indeed, largely copied from Christianity and Judaism, in order to make it more familiar to new converts.

 

[jesucated]

Well, this shouldn’t be too difficult to resolve.

Which parts of what the teacher quoted (St. Bosco’s words) were untrue?

You may be surprised to learn that much of it is quite true, though strongly worded. Just because something is not worded in a pleasant way does not mean it is untrue. Islam was, indeed, spread by military force. It was, indeed, largely copied from Christianity and Judaism, in order to make it more familiar to new converts.

Quoting from the first link:

It refers to Islam as a “monstrous mixture” of faiths and also says Muhammad’s doctrines are “ridiculous, immoral and corrupting.”

This in no way reflects truth.

 

[dshix]

This in no way reflects truth.

Why not? Islam does, indeed, borrow doctrines from other faiths that existed for hundreds of years before its creation. And I don’t think you can disagree that some of Muhammad’s doctrines are “ridiculous, immoral and corrupting.”

“Ridiculous” is unnecessary, even. “Immoral” and “corrupting” are a sufficient description.

 

[Estevao]

It’s funny, the worst sermon I ever heard was recently on St. John Bosco’s feast day when a priest used his example to decry how “judgmental” the Church supposedly was in his day. I wonder if he actually did write this.

 

[Wedge_Antilles]

Why not? Islam does, indeed, borrow doctrines from other faiths that existed for hundreds of years before its creation. And I don’t think you can disagree that some of Muhammad’s doctrines are “ridiculous, immoral and corrupting.”

“Ridiculous” is unnecessary, even. “Immoral” and “corrupting” are a sufficient description.

How can someone use the words “no way reflects truth” on subjective descriptions? There is no way to prove either, because they are adjectives, not quantifiable or able to verified by metrics.

We believe the Catholic faith is beautiful. Others believe it to be ugly. I can prove to them where the Vatican is located. I can prove to them which days are Holy Days in 2017. I can prove to them how JP II died. I can’t prove to them it is beautiful.

Basically, it is one person’s opinion that a Saint’s opinion as recorded in his writings and teachings is incorrect. That’s fine, but hardly reason for censure or angst.

 

[jesucated]

Why not? Islam does, indeed, borrow doctrines from other faiths that existed for hundreds of years before its creation. And I don’t think you can disagree that some of Muhammad’s doctrines are “ridiculous, immoral and corrupting.”

“Ridiculous” is unnecessary, even. “Immoral” and “corrupting” are a sufficient description.

I find your characterization of Islam uncharitable at best. Consider what has been said in the Catechism and by the various popes since The Second Vatican Council: usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/ecumenical-and-interreligious/interreligious/islam/vatican-council-and-papal-statements-on-islam.cfm

Where in the words of the church and her earthly shepherds do you find room for the kinds of comments passed along to these students?

 

[gracepoole]

St. John Chrysostom: “[T]he synagogue is not only a brothel and a theater; it also is a den of robbers and a lodging for wild beasts.”

Are those who find this teacher’s choice of student reading material acceptable also willing to share Chrysostom’s views on Jews with students? Is it acceptable to share Chrysostom’s statement that Jews are obstinate because they engage in “gluttony and drunkenness”?

 

[Kash00315]

No offense to Vatican II, the Holy Father, and whatever other modernist opinions exist on the matter but i’ll take the bulk of our almost 2000 year old faith’s opinion on the Muhammadan faith and trust it. The teacher did nothing wrong here we’re supposed to be instructing our children in the faith at these institutions and showing criticisms of other religions is not a bad thing.

“There is also the superstition of the Ishmaelites which to this day prevails and keeps people in error, being a forerunner of the Antichrist…. From that time to the present a false prophet named Mohammed has appeared in their midst. This man, after having chanced upon the Old and New Testaments and likewise, it seems, having conversed with an Arian monk, devised his own heresy. Then, having insinuated himself into the good graces of the people by a show of seeming piety, he gave out that a certain book had been sent down to him from heaven. He had set down some ridiculous compositions in this book of his and he gave it to them as an object of veneration.”
St. John Damascene

“We profess Christ to be truly God and your prophet to be a precursor of the Antichrist and other profane doctrine.”
Sts. Habenitus, Jeremiah, Peter, Sabinian, Walabonsus, and Wistremundus martyrs of Cordoba

“On the other hand, those who founded sects committed to erroneous doctrines proceeded in a way that is opposite to this, the point is clear in the case of Muhammad. He seduced the people by promises of carnal pleasure to which the concupiscence of the flesh goads us. His teaching also contained precepts that were in conformity with his promises, and he gave free rein to carnal pleasure. In all this, as is not unexpected, he was obeyed by carnal men. As for proofs of the truth of his doctrine, he brought forward only such as could be grasped by the natural ability of anyone with a very modest wisdom. Indeed, the truths that he taught he mingled with many fables and with doctrines of the greatest falsity. He did not bring forth any signs produced in a supernatural way, which alone fittingly gives witness to divine inspiration; for a visible action that can be only divine reveals an invisibly inspired teacher of truth. On the contrary, Muhammad said that he was sent in the power of his arms—which are signs not lacking even to robbers and tyrants.”
St. Thomas Aquinas

“As we have seen, Muhammed had neither supernatural miracles nor natural motives of reason to persuade those of his sect. As he lacked in everything, he took to bestial and barbaric means, which is the force of arms. Thus he introduced and promulgated his message with robberies, murders, and bloodshedding, destroying those who did not want to receive it, and with the same means his ministers conserve this today, until God placates his anger and destroys this pestilence from the earth.

…]

(Muhammad) can also be figured for the dragon in the same Apocalypse which says that the dragon swept up a third of the stars and hurled down a third to earth. Although this line is more appropriately understood concerning the Antichrist, Mohammed was his precursor – the prophet of Satan, father of the sons of haughtiness.

…]

Even if all the things contained in his law were fables in philosophy and errors in theology, even for those who do not possess the light of reason, the very manners (Islam) teaches are from a school of vicious bestialities. (Muhammad) did not prove his new sect with any motive, having neither supernatural miracles nor natural reasons, but solely the force of arms, violence, fictions, lies, and carnal license. It remains an impious, blasphemous, vicious cult, an innovention of the devil, and the direct way into the fires of hell. It does not even merit the name of being called a religion.”
St. Juan de Ribera

“The Mahometan paradise, however, is only fit for beasts; for filthy sensual pleasure is all the believer has to expect there.”
St. Alfonsus Liguori

 

[lynnvinc]

After reading the articles, I think this school made exactly the right decision. I applaud them.

Yes. It is sad to hear that St. John Bosco, whom I admire and still do, said those things. But, of course, the context was different then than it is now. In today’s context spreading what he said against Islam is not a good idea. I’m thinking even St. John Bosco in heaven agrees with reprimanding that teacher…maybe he is even behind it

Good and saintly people sometimes make wrong or negative (unwarranted, insensitive) claims and comments about people or their faith. Even saints aren’t perfect, and some were even great sinners before become saintly saints.

I remember a priest who made wrong and negative claims about women. And another one, about Martin Luther. I don’t think either of them, now surely in heaven, would want me or others to cite them making those claims. They, now that they know everything, would probably prefer we all forget them.

 

[lynnvinc]

Another thing re what St. John Bosco said – some untrue, some unnecessarily negative and insulting – if it amounts to something that could be a sin, but St. John Bosco didn’t realize it, then it would have been forgiven him when he went for confession.

As a priest explained it to me when I worried that I had perhaps forgotten some sins and had not confessed then, when one confesses it is a complete turning around of the person and all his/her sins are forgiven, even if they were not remembered and confessed.

So a person can still become a saint, even if they committed sins and even if they did not confess those particular sins, as long as they did eventually make a confession and were absolved.

That teacher, I think, would be wise to also go for confession, just in case what he did was a sin. And accept the reprimand and directive from his legitimate authority with humility, as we are called to do as Catholics. Obedience in all things, except sin.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

If I understand correctly, this was handed out to fifth graders.

St. John Bosco taught very good things in regards to children. He did very good things in regards to reforming those who committed juvenile crimes and in helping the extremely poor. If I had a Salesian school nearby, I would definitely send my sons to it.

But, one needs to read what he wrote regarding Islam in the context of his milieu. I think presenting this to fifth graders as how the Church teaches about Islam was not correct.

Older kids, in High School, perhaps can read it.

But fifth graders, I believe, are too young to understand how what John Bosco wrote at the time was influenced by his milieu.

The Church teaches that Islam is a monotheistic religion that worships the God of Abraham. For fifth grade I would teach that they pray differently than Catholics do, that they don’t believe many things than we do.

And on top of that, I would focus more on the Catholic faith and teachings. Back when I was in Catholic school, we learned about the teachings of other faiths in high school.

 

[Pulvis]

What i find most troubling about this entire episode, to include some commenters on this post, is that reletavism has ingrained itself so deeply within the Body of Christ.
“I am the way, the Truth and the Life. No one comes to the Father but by Me”
One simply cannot parse this fact away. No amount of hand ringing, reletavism, nor linguistic pretzel logic can redefine the Words of Our Lord.
The politically correct, coexist at any cost mentality is destroying souls. Yet so many Catholics, lay and Clergy,seem powerless to stand up for the Truth.

“Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. [20] Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.”

I see nowhere in the above where we are instructed to give exception to certain groups, religions, or ethnicities.

Have a Blessed Easter Season.