Catholic Teaching and Immunization Policy

Status
Not open for further replies.
You said:
We treated it as a benign disease as kids, but it’s actually not.
It is normally a benign disease in kids. Yes, I saw your context, so I believe that the vaccine a good idea for adolescents and adults who aren’t immune to chicken pox. Did you read the NHS link?
 
Yes, I did. Infectious disease experts do disagree with that assessment. And I am also aware that there is debate on the efficacy of the vaccine when given only once and in childhood. (Anecdotally I know of an adult who got the vaccine and was still hospitalized from chicken pox, but there’s also no way for me to know if they seroconverted appropriately, which is the root of the efficacy question as I understand it.)

Your post appeared to take what I said out of context.

Also anecdotal, but my nieces were never vaccinated against it, got chicken pox (very mild, which is apparently the norm these days) - and one of them at eleven was diagnosed with shingles. And yes, the pediatrician found that very odd, as did everyone else who heard it.
 
Last edited:
Yes, I did. Infectious disease experts do disagree with that assessment
Obviously. (Shrugging). But that assessment was also written by infectious disease experts. There’s clearly too much unsettled science to call for a mandate.

Let’s see, anecdotes . . .

My mom’s friend got deathly ill from chicken pox after her first dose of the vaccine. I got shingles at age 27. I wasn’t yet a mom, so I was unaware that kids were being vaccinated for chicken pox and wondered why on earth I was getting a disease of the elderly!

Anecdotes aren’t evidence. But what is evidence if not a collection of anecdotes? We need a lot more research.
 
Last edited:
When you say “against vaccines” and cite 99% of them being too young to remember the deadliness of disease outbreaks, are you including people who want safer vaccines - so either follow a different schedule or choose not to have certain specific vaccines, or just people who do not vaccinate at all?
 
I have not once said anything against anyone who delays or changes the schedule. There is rational reasoning behind that - even in the absence of any empirical evidence showing it makes any collective difference and no matter the behind the back eye roll it gets from a lot of pediatricians. Yeah, they do that.

Having never endorsed vaccines as infallible or 100% safe myself, I’m unsure why you would think that statement would include them either.

“99% of people who are against vaccination” would be people who are AGAINST VACCINATION. I’ve never heard of any person in their seventies or eighties railing against the evil of vaccines. They’re possibly still here because of them. The people against vaccines aren’t old. They’re too young to remember a world without them, and have no idea what it’s like without them.

If you’re against vaccination, my guess is you don’t vaccinate.

Having to explain that is tedious to me, because I’m unsure of how to make it clearer.
 
I wasn’t trying to provoke. I don’t know anyone who is against all vaccines. I’m sure they exist. But, anecdotally, I haven’t met them.

What I and others are arguing for in this thread is that government should not mandate a vaccination schedule. They can and do recommend, but it should remain the parent’s choice whether to vaccinate their child, and how.

All too often we are (apparently not by you) labeled and vilified by the media and sometimes by practitioners for merely asking questions.

So I asked you to make a distinction between anti-vaxxers and others who are simply people who want safety and informed consent. I think it’s vital that we keep distinguishing the two.
 
That’s fair. I apologize for the sensitivity.
I wasn’t trying to provoke. I don’t know anyone who is against all vaccines. I’m sure they exist. But, anecdotally, I haven’t met them.
That is the very definition of an anti-vaxxer. Those are the people we’re talking about. They’re all over the Internet, they’re the subject of documentaries, they’re quoted in publications, they are real and they are dangerous. They’ve written books and they’re in parenting groups.

At my next-to-last base (so two assignments ago) I encountered the worst of them: this family had eleven kids. In and of itself, that’s fine, but how they managed a permanent change of station move every three years and did this on midlevel enlisted pay I have no idea. You don’t get more money for more dependents, just public assistance/welfare in each state you live in, and I know they received welfare because we had to endorse the paperwork; that’s not a judgment, just a fact. But at any rate, the only vaccinated people in the household were the parents and the oldest child.

13 people in one house, and only three were vaccinated. With no intent to ever vaccinate. Ever.
 
Last edited:
Those people sound pretty extreme to me. And (hopefully) out of the norm. I can see your frustration with a family like that.
 
They are clearly the extreme, I agree.

My sister also never vaccinated her kids. Neither of them.

Not trying to spam you with anecdotal evidence, LOL. Just that they’re everywhere.
 
Last edited:
Any given child is more likely to survive the vaccine than the disease, excepting those with certain extreme medical complications. Not vaccinating your child is vastly more likely to harm them than vaccinating them.
That assumes one has a certain disease. Fortunately, children are not very likely to ever get most of these diseases, but only thanks to those who are willing to vaccinate their children. Those that do not (as a matter of choice only), want the immunity others provide without taking any risk personally with their child, however slight (makes me wonder why they ever put a kid in a car). This too is a moral consideration. Should a parent be afforded that protection if they do not want to protect others?
 
“99% of people who are against vaccination” would be people who are AGAINST VACCINATION. I’ve never heard of any person in their seventies or eighties railing against the evil of vaccines. They’re possibly still here because of them. The people against vaccines aren’t old. They’re too young to remember a world without them, and have no idea what it’s like without them.
Brace yourself. I am in my late 60s. I grew up in a family that did not vaccinate. My grandfather was an alternative health practitioner, starting back in the 1920s and decided that vaccines were dangerous, probably because he saw someone with a bad reaction. Smallpox vaccines being what they were, reactions were quite common.

My parents produced 5 children and none of us were vaccinated, although I was given one tetanus shot after falling off my bike, as I had the bad luck of running into a doctor’s car (it wasn’t moving). He didn’t ask my parents. He did a trial bit of the vaccine under my skin, remarked “you are having a bit of a reaction” and proceeded to give me the rest of the shot. Experiences like that have contributed to my very careful approach to medical care.

So yep, there were indeed people back in the old days who turned against vaccines. You could read up on the demonstrations in Leicester protesting mandatory smallpox vaccination of infants for a powerful example.

My parents also refused to get us the polio vaccines. Given that the vaccines turned out to be contaminated with viruses from monkey kidneys, I’m rather grateful.

I’ve been researching vaccines for over 18 years and it is a fascinating topic. I’m continually shocked at the ignorance of medical professionals on the subject.
 
So I asked you to make a distinction between anti-vaxxers and others who are simply people who want safety and informed consent. I think it’s vital that we keep distinguishing the two.
One of the reasons I distrust the people who are strongly pushing for vaccine mandates is their distortion of the wide range of opinions that exist in relation to vaccines, mandates, medical choice and so on. Anyone who asks a question is quite likely to be attacked as “anti-vaccine”.

I myself don’t vaccinate and I’m generally distrustful of vaccines as a public health solution. A lot of this is due to my extensive study of history and awareness of what was actually killing people and why. But to return to my main point, I don’t want to deprive anyone who wants a vaccine from getting one or many. All I want is for people to be able to say no to vaccines, for whatever reason they may want to say no.

I think forced medical interventions is the epitome of a slippery slope. And yes, if you deprive people of their jobs, their access to education and their access to public services, that is a form of “force” no matter what kind of hairsplitting someone comes up with.

In other words, I think there is a big ethical problem around using the “club” approach to raising vaccination rates.
 
That assumes one has a certain disease. Fortunately, children are not very likely to ever get most of these diseases, but only thanks to those who are willing to vaccinate their children. Those that do not (as a matter of choice only), want the immunity others provide without taking any risk personally with their child, however slight (makes me wonder why they ever put a kid in a car). This too is a moral consideration. Should a parent be afforded that protection if they do not want to protect others?
Since I was a child back in the 1950s, when the list of available vaccines was quite short, I know first hand the horrors of unchecked childhood illnesses. I am a real life survivor of chickenpox, measles, mumps, rubella and probably one or two more. Alas for your belief system, none of them were particularly horrific. Measles was the worst, mostly because we were living in a 2 room apartment in a poor neighborhood. Two adults and 5 children.

So why did so many children die in the bad old days? Utterly horrific living conditions. Malnutrition. Overcrowding. Many children died in accidents, a significant number were working in factories and other dangerous settings. Scarlet fever killed a lot of kids. So did the various waterborne diseases.

Living conditions in the US weren’t as bad as many places, but tenement buildings in New York City consisted mostly of two-room apartments with a single window. There was one outhouse for an entire building and all water had to be hauled upstairs in buckets, usually from a single tap. People worked in sweatshops (ideal setting for catching tuberculosis), didn’t always have enough to eat and slept in crowded rooms with inadequate air circulation.
 
’m seeing a lot of pro-vaccine talking points but they are sidestepping the case made in my original post. Anyone care to take a stab (jab?) at it?
It’s simple.

There is a risk to some children from some vaccines. It’s not a big risk. It’s a very, very small risk. And then there are the risks that are demonstrably not real (all the autism nonsense has been thoroughly debunked, and I have no intention of engaging in debate about this here).

The risks that come with polio, for example, or pertussis, or measles, are well known, and very, very serious.

So the calculation is easy.
 
Thanks for jumping in and bringing the thread back on topic. It’s that word “some” that grabs me. I don’t believe in the result of mandates, the invariable sacrifice of the Some for the Others. To borrow from the rally chant in California, where there’s risk, there must be choice.
 
I can’t find the data but can dig for it. The last I heard, 0.8% of schoolchildren have never been vaccinated. 1.8% haven’t been completely vaccinated on schedule. When you consider that many of those 0.8% may have come from the same family, there are even fewer adults who would truly identify as “anti-vaccination,” your sister being among them. 😉

When the media fans the fear flames about the Big Eveeeeeeel Anti-Vaccination movement, they’re spewing hyperbole. Which is what they do, anyway.
 
Last edited:
So why did so many children die in the bad old days? Utterly horrific living conditions. Malnutrition. Overcrowding. Many children died in accidents, a significant number were working in factories and other dangerous settings. Scarlet fever killed a lot of kids. So did the various waterborne diseases.
Absolutely true.

And they also died of tuberculosis, and pertussis and diphtheria. And were paralyzed by polio.
 
There’s a doctor who makes these very same points regarding vaccines and public health outcomes. Her name is Dr. Stephanie Cave MD, and she wrote a wonderfully informative book titled “What Your Doctor May Not Tell You About Children’s Vaccinations.” She also has given lectures on the subject. I rely on her book to make determinations on whether to give certain vaccines to my Autistic son.
 
Last edited:
“99% of people who are against vaccination” would be people who are AGAINST VACCINATION. I’ve never heard of any person in their seventies or eighties railing against the evil of vaccines. They’re possibly still here because of them. The people against vaccines aren’t old. They’re too young to remember a world without them, and have no idea what it’s like without them.
They are few and far between. I didn’t say all of them and I didn’t say all of your generation was for them. You are rare and not the rule.

“Brace yourself”? LOL - for what, exactly? You’re in your late sixties; you actually aren’t even old to me. My mother is just about old enough to be your mother. My brother is only a few years younger than you. You’re hardly from “the old days”. 😉
 
Last edited:
I can’t find the data but can dig for it. The last I heard, 0.8% of schoolchildren have never been vaccinated. 1.8% haven’t been completely vaccinated on schedule. When you consider that many of those 0.8% may have come from the same family, there are even fewer adults who would truly identify as “anti-vaccination,” your sister being among them. 😉

When the media fans the fear flames about the Big Eveeeeeeel Anti-Vaccination movement, they’re spewing hyperbole. Which is what they do, anyway.
No clue why you find my sister’s vaccination stance cute or amusing, but to each their own.

In 2010 74.2 million people were below the age of 18. That’s one big family, isn’t it?
To borrow from the rally chant in California, where there’s risk, there must be choice.
Given the state of CA, I don’t know that I’d borrow much of anything from them.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top