Catholic teaching not found in the Bible

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someotherguy said:
Could you please give me a specific chapter and verse that shows that John prayed to the dead?
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Here’s a good example:

Rev. 19:9-10

John is rebuked for attempting to worship the angel (dead guy in Heaven), but he is not rebuked for merely speaking (praying) to him.
 
jmcrae said:
Here’s a good example:

Rev. 19:9-10

John is rebuked for attempting to worship the angel (dead guy in Heaven), but he is not rebuked for merely speaking (praying) to him.
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Actually, angels are not dead people.
 
someotherguy said:
“Dead” as described in Deuteronomy does not necessarily refer to physical death, but to those who have left this Earthly, physical existence and crossed over into a spiritual existence.
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Revelation 5:8
And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.
Revelation 5:7-9 (in Context) Revelation 5 (Whole Chapter)
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Revelation 8:3
Another angel, who had a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense to offer, with the prayers of all the saints, on the golden altar before the throne.
Revelation 8:2-4 (in Context) Revelation 8 (Whole Chapter)
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Revelation 8:4
The smoke of the incense, together with the prayers of the saints, went up before God from the angel’s hand.
Revelation 8:3-5 (in Context) Revelation 8 (Whole Chapter)
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catholic.com/library/Praying_to_the_Saints.asp
It does not make the distinction between “dead” and “dead in Christ”. All prayers to the dead are forbidden.
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Sometimes Fundamentalists object to asking our fellow Christians in heaven to pray for us by declaring that God has forbidden contact with the dead in passages such as Deuteronomy 18:10–11.

In fact, he has not, because he at times has given it—for example, when he had Moses and Elijah appear with Christ to the disciples on the Mount of Transfiguration (Matt. 17:3). Moses and Elijah are not dead. But they are certainly in Heaven. And if you do not have a problem with us speaking with living people then why don’t you pray with Moses and Elijah toward Jesus?

What God has forbidden is necromantic practice of conjuring up spirits. “There shall not be found among you any one who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, any one who practices divination, a soothsayer, or an augur, or a sorcerer, or a charmer, or a medium, or a wizard, or a necromancer. . . . For these nations, which you are about to dispossess, give heed to soothsayers and to diviners; but as for you, the Lord your God has not allowed you so to do. The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your brethren—him you shall heed” (Deut. 18:10–15).

God thus indicates that one is not to conjure the dead for purposes of gaining information; one is to look to God’s prophets instead.

Thus one is not to hold a seance. But anyone with an ounce of common sense can discern the vast qualitative difference between holding a seance to have the dead speak through you and a son humbly saying at his mother’s grave, “Mom, please pray to Jesus for me; I’m having a real problem right now.”

The difference between the two is the difference between night and day. One is an occult practice bent on getting secret information; the other is a humble request for a loved one to pray to God on one’s behalf.
 
Originally Posted by SIA
Good question. Kind of like where does the Bible specifically say that Purgatory exists?
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Apart from the teachings of St Paul, Scripture also implies it by two teachings and ‘no man is without sin’ and ‘nothing defiled can enter heaven!’ So either one of two possibilites: ‘no-one goes to heaven’ or there is some other way by which one is purified of the guilt of sin!
 
jmcrae said:
Neither are Saints, come to think of it. 🙂
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You’re absolutely right. Everyone who is born again is a saint. Every born again person now living on Earth is a saint.

Of course, you choose to pray to the dead ones.
Is it okay to pray to Angels, in your religion?
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No, it is not OK to pray to angels in Christianity. It isn’t OK to pray to anyone but God alone.
 
Camron said:
In fact, he has not, because he at times has given it—for example, when he had Moses and Elijah appear with Christ to the disciples on the Mount of Transfiguration (Matt. 17:3). Moses and Elijah are not dead. But they are certainly in Heaven. And if you do not have a problem with us speaking with living people then why don’t you pray with Moses and Elijah toward Jesus?
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We do pray to Jesus. Notice that it was Christ who talked to Moses and Elijah, not the disciples. Jesus has that perogative, the disciples did not.
What God has forbidden is necromantic practice of conjuring up spirits.
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Fatima, Medjugore, etc.
God thus indicates that one is not to conjure the dead for purposes of gaining information; one is to look to God’s prophets instead.
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You mean like the many Roman Catholics who pray to Mary to make one of her appearances, in which she gives messages from beyond the grave?
Thus one is not to hold a seance. But anyone with an ounce of common sense can discern the vast qualitative difference between holding a seance to have the dead speak through you and a son humbly saying at his mother’s grave, “Mom, please pray to Jesus for me; I’m having a real problem right now.”
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The Bible doesn’t make such a distinction, so I guess, by your logic, the BIble doesn’t have an ounce of common sense.
The difference between the two is the difference between night and day. One is an occult practice bent on getting secret information; the other is a humble request for a loved one to pray to God on one’s behalf.
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Where does the Bible say that God is more likely to answer a prayer based on who is praying?
 
someotherguy said:
No, it is not OK to pray to angels in Christianity. It isn’t OK to pray to anyone but God alone.
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Is it ok to ask someone else to pray for you?

Obviously not. And yet you seem to be saying that asking a saint in heaven to pray for someone automatically means that we’re worshipping them.

Give your head a shake and snap out of it someotherguy. Think about what you’re actually claiming.

When Jesus had Moses and Elijah appear with Him before the disciples on the Mount of Transfiguration (Matt. 17:3) it could be said that Moses and Elijah were not dead (although Moses may have been). Either way, they certainly did come from Heaven.

If you do not have a problem with us speaking with living people then why don’t you pray with Moses and Elijah toward Jesus? We could include Enoch in this group too, since he’s still alive too.
 
jmcrae said:
I have done so: Revelation 19:9-10.
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OK. Here’s Revelation 19:9-10:
And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
19:10
And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
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Nothing here about praying to angels.

So, do you have some verse in which John prays to angels or not?
 
someotherguy said:
Nothing here about praying to angels.

So, do you have some verse in which John prays to angels or not?
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He is spiritually in the presence of the angel, communicating with him.

What is your definition of “praying”? 🤷
 
someotherguy said:
We do pray to Jesus. Notice that it was Christ who talked to Moses and Elijah, not the disciples. Jesus has that perogative, the disciples did not.
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Did you notice that they still saw them and heard them before they blanked out? Would you kindly explain that part?
You mean like the many Roman Catholics who pray to Mary to make one of her appearances, in which she gives messages from beyond the grave?
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Mary’s not dead. She’s alive. Fatima, Medjugore, etc.
The Bible doesn’t make such a distinction, so I guess, by your logic, the BIble doesn’t have an ounce of common sense.
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No. By your logic you don’t have an ounce of common sense precisely because you can’t see a difference between true prayer and occultic practices.
Where does the Bible say that God is more likely to answer a prayer based on who is praying?
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James 5:16-18:
Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective.

Elijah was a man just like us. He prayed earnestly that it would not rain, and it did not rain on the land for three and a half years. Again he prayed, and the heavens gave rain, and the earth produced its crops.
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And if you think you have the faith of Elijah then prove it. Elijah was a man just like us. But his faith was far greater then ours, that’s why God listened to him. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective precisely because God Himself is at work in that person.
 
Camron said:
Is it ok to ask someone else to pray for you?
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Sure, as long as they’re not dead and as long as you understand that they have no special spiritual authority or power that compel God to answer your prayers.
Obviously not. And yet you seem to be saying that asking a saint in heaven to pray for someone automatically means that we’re worshipping them.
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No, building statues of them and bowing down to them is worship. Praying to the dead is just necromancy.
When Jesus had Moses and Elijah appear with Him before the disciples on the Mount of Transfiguration (Matt. 17:3) it could be said that Moses and Elijah were not dead (although Moses may have been). Either way, they certainly did come from Heaven.
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By the Biblical definition, they were dead.
If you do not have a problem with us speaking with living people then why don’t you pray with Moses and Elijah toward Jesus? We could include Enoch in this group too, since he’s still alive too.
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Why didn’t the disciples make an attempt to talk to Moses and Elijah?
 
someotherguy

RCs love to use “pray” anachronistcally.

“I pray, sir, give me directions to the nearest mega shopping mall.” 😉
 
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