Catholic teaching not found in the Bible

[jmcrae]

RCs love to use “pray” anachronistcally.

“I pray, sir, give me directions to the nearest mega shopping mall.”

This is, in fact, the definition I’m referring to.

We use the words “worship” and “adoration” when we actually mean to say those things.

We do not worship or adore the Angels and the Saints, of course! :nope:

 

[someotherguy]

Did you notice that they still saw them and heard them before they blanked out? Would you kindly explain that part?

“Saw and heard” is not the same as praying to.

Mary’s not dead. She’s alive. Fatima, Medjugore, etc.

Yes, I’ve heard that some Roman Catholics believe that Mary was assumed into Heaven and did not die but, in addition to the fact that there is no evidence for this, by the Bible’s definition, she is still dead.

No. By your logic you don’t have an ounce of common sense

Yep, that’s just the kind of Christlike answer I’ve come to expect here.

precisely because you can’t see a difference between true prayer and occultic practices.

The Bible doesn’t make such a distinction. Praying to the dead is praying to the dead.

And if you think you have the faith of Elijah then prove it. Elijah was a man just like us. But his faith was far greater then ours, that’s why God listened to him. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective precisely because God Himself is at work in that person.

Why are you avoiding my question?

 

[sandusky]

This is, in fact, the definition I’m referring to.

We use the words “worship” and “adoration” when we actually mean to say those things.

Of course!

You don’t really talk that way, but pragmatically, it’s seems to support your apologetic for praying to dead to people.

 

[someotherguy]

He is spiritually in the presence of the angel, communicating with him.

That is not praying.

First, John was caught up in a vision. It was God who caused him to be caught up into the vision. So if God’s messenger came to him to facilitate that vision, it is perfectly reasonable for him to communicate with the angel.

Second, as I pointed out before, angels are not the same as dead people.

What is your definition of “praying”?

Communication with God.

 

[Mystic_of_God]

Communication with God.

Ugh.

That argument was pitiful.

 

[mercygate]

someotherguy

RCs love to use “pray” anachronistcally.

“I pray, sir, give me directions to the nearest mega shopping mall.”

That’s because the Catholic Church was using these terms when they were still current as we now use them. Y’know: before 1500.

 

[someotherguy]

Ugh.

That argument was pitiful.

Then it must be even more pitiful that not one of the Roman Catholics was able to refute it.

 

[jmcrae]

Of course!

You don’t really talk that way, but pragmatically, it’s seems to support your apologetic for praying to dead to people.

In my personal experience, it actually does seem to be how we actually talk.

When we go to Mass, we don’t hear about “praying to God” (unless we’re actually just communicating with Him; ie: I will pray for you at Mass) - we talk about “worshipping God” at Mass - and we call it “Adoration;” not “prayer time” when we physically worship God outside of Mass. It’s “praying” when you need something from Him or when you’re just talking to Him, without also, at the same time, adoring or worshipping Him.

 

[Camron]

“Saw and heard” is not the same as praying to.

When we talk about “praying” to the saints we’re not talking about “worshipping” them. We’re talking about “talking” with them in the same way that we would talk to any other person we know and love in Christ.

Yes, I’ve heard that some Roman Catholics believe that Mary was assumed into Heaven and did not die but, in addition to the fact that there is no evidence for this, by the Bible’s definition, she is still dead.

Strange. I always thought that alive meant alive and dead meant dead.

Is Elijah, for example, alive or dead?

Yep, that’s just the kind of Christlike answer I’ve come to expect here.

And saying that Mary is dead when she is alive is a Christ like answer? That’s either a lie or a misunderstanding on your part. I’m willing to give you the benefit of the doubt. But don’t play this game with “Christ-like answers”.

If you are wrong then your answers are very **anti-Christian **because it goes against what Christ actually teaches.

The Bible doesn’t make such a distinction. Praying to the dead is praying to the dead.

Yes, it does. For example…

That same day the Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to him with a question. “Teacher,” they said, “Moses told us that if a man dies without having children, his brother must marry the widow and have children for him. Now there were seven brothers among us. The first one married and died, and since he had no children, he left his wife to his brother. The same thing happened to the second and third brother, right on down to the seventh. Finally, the woman died. Now then, at the resurrection, whose wife will she be of the seven, since all of them were married to her?”

Jesus replied, “You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God. At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven. But about the resurrection of the dead—have you not read what God said to you,** ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’**? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.”

When the crowds heard this, they were astonished at his teaching.

Now if God is the God of the living and not the God of the dead when Jesus spoke of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob then how can Catholics be praying to dead people?

Even though Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob each experienced a physical death Jesus said they are indeed alive (“for to him all [in heaven] are alive”)!

The saints are alive in Christ, just as the Bible plainly states.

Why are you avoiding my question?

Which question am I avoiding?

 

[jmcrae]

That is not praying.

Yes it is; he is in communications with a person who is in Heaven.

First, John was caught up in a vision. It was God who caused him to be caught up into the vision. So if God’s messenger came to him to facilitate that vision, it is perfectly reasonable for him to communicate with the angel.

This is “prayer.” God often calls us to pray.

Second, as I pointed out before, angels are not the same as dead people.

True, they’re not.

Communication with God.

Okay. So, do you distinguish between prayer and worship?

For Catholics, “praying” is communication with God or with other heavenly persons, and worship is something we do for God (in our case, the Mass), but which is not, in and of itself, a form of communication, right?

 

[someotherguy]

When we talk about “praying” to the saints we’re not talking about “worshipping” them. We’re talking about “talking” with them in the same way that we would talk to any other person we know and love in Christ.

Irrelevant. I’m talking about the Biblical definition of prayer.

Strange. I always thought that alive meant alive and dead menat dead.

Is Elijah, for example, alive or dead?

Dead.

And saying that Mary is dead when she is alive is a Christ like answer?

I see nothing Unchristlike about telling the truth.

That’s either a lie or a misunderstanding on your part.

OK. Please show me some evidence that she is not dead.

Yes, it does. For example…

See Romans 14:9, in which we’re told that God is the God of both the living and the dead.

Now if God is the God of the living and not the God of the dead when Jesus spoke of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob then how can Catholics be praying to dead people?

Why are fire trucks red?

Even though Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob each experienced a physical death Jesus said they are indeed alive (“for to him all [in heaven] are alive”)!

That’s right. They are spiritually alive. However, they are still physically dead. They have passed into the spiritual realm and, thus, are off limits to us.

The saints are alive in Christ, just as the Bible plainly states.

OK. Who are the dead in Christ?

 

[someotherguy]

Yes it is; he is in communications with a person who is in Heaven.

He is in a vision with the person he is talking to.

This is “prayer.” God often calls us to pray.

It isn’t prayer in the Biblical sense.

True, they’re not.

Then why do you keep on insisting that they’re dead people?

Okay. So, do you distinguish between prayer and worship?

Yes. While both are communication, they are dramatically different in both purpose and practice.

 

[Benadam]

At the death of Christ and at the Resurrection there were many people seen coming out of their graves and walking around Jerusalem. They must be dead folks.

St Paul said he knew a man who went to the third heaven, out of the body or in he didn’t know, and had ‘seen and heard’ many things. Apparently in St Paul’s view conscious life is possible when the body and soul are seperated.

Jesus spoke of the rich man as conscious in a state of purgation.

I doubt Jesus would tell the story like that if there were no conscious life after death.

 

[jmcrae]

At the death of Christ and at the Resurrection there were many people seen coming out of their graves and walking around Jerusalem. They must be dead folks.

Yep. Zombies, I guess?

 

[someotherguy]

At the death of Christ and at the Resurrection there were many people seen coming out of their graves and walking around Jerusalem. They must be dead folks.

Yep. They’re dead. However, they’re not literally walking around Jerusalem.

 

[Benadam]

Yep. They’re dead. However, they’re not literally walking around Jerusalem.

Why isn’t this passage to be taken literally?

 

[jmcrae]

He is in a vision with the person he is talking to.

Yes. Probably by means of some form of what later became known as Ignatian meditation, which is one of the many forms of Christian prayer.

It isn’t prayer in the Biblical sense.

Where does the Bible give an absolute or limited definition of prayer?

Then why do you keep on insisting that they’re dead people?

I don’t. Angels are heavenly beings. So are the Saints who are in Heaven (including the 24 elders, and I’m just trying to find where John was communicating with them, too).

Yes. While both are communication, they are dramatically different in both purpose and practice.

Good. Many Protestants are under the impression that they are “worshipping” God when they ask Him to find their car keys for them.

 

[someotherguy]

Why isn’t this passage to be taken literally?

Because we read it in context.

Are you the same BenAdam who posts on ChristianForums?

 

[someotherguy]

Yes. Probably by means of some form of what later became known as Ignatian meditation, which is one of the many forms of Christian prayer.

No, the two have nothing to do with one another.

Where does the Bible give an absolute or limited definition of prayer?

Do you know what the analogy of scripture is?

I don’t.

You’ve done so several times now.

 

[Benadam]

Because we read it in context.

Are you the same BenAdam who posts on ChristianForums?

Ok, then, why would a literal enterp not be in context?

There is another benadam? I never!..