Catholic teaching on gender roles

[Bonnie]

Well, after reading the thread, it’s become pretty clear to me that the OP really wasn’t interested in learning Catholic teaching about gender roles.

Allisonmargaret hasn’t replied, but she may be reading the responses. She’s pretty new, so the many replies may have overwhelmed her.

 

[EasterJoy]

So JPII was against marital rape, which is a criminal act in the U.S. How nice of him. That certainly doesn’t affect my life as a Western women.

And of course, women enjoy sex. Men aren’t the ones who watch soaps or Sex in the City or read books like Fifty Shades of Gray.

OK, but most Catholic women are not upper-class Western women. They do care whether or not the Pope speaks out against marital rape, because the attitude that this offense against marriage is somehow OK affects them, and they are far more vulnerable than those of us who have laws protecting us from such things and the courage to seek out the protection of the law. A woman who has been victimized by her husband, of all people, can be very intimidated by him and can have her sense of her own worth undermined by him. He might be using the authority of the Church falsely, to cover his sin against his marriage vows. It is important that wives be emboldened to seek help in those sad situations, safe in the knowledge that the Church approves when wives seek safety from their own husbands. So let’s drop the patronizing “how nice of him” retort, shall we?

I don’t even know how to respond to the contention that the popularity of Fifty Shades of Grey has anything to do with women who have a healthy view of sexuality, any more than the popularity of posting free pornographic selfies on the internet does. Those things are symptoms of spiritual illness, not sexual health. Even totally secular minds can see this, but Heaven forbid that someone devoted to the Gospel would fail to see it. You might want to re-state your point in terms that fit the awareness of your audience better. Yes, pleasure shared by both the wife and the husband is in God’s plan for human sexuality, but garbage such as Fifty Shades of Grey has no place in that plan.

 

[EasterJoy]

Allisonmargaret hasn’t replied, but she may be reading the responses. She’s pretty new, so the many replies may have overwhelmed her.

Some people do ask questions and then just listen to the replies without throwing their two cents in. It can be quite charming, when it happens in person. It is a little harder, though, when the eye contact is missing.

 

[pensmama87]

Allisonmargaret hasn’t replied, but she may be reading the responses. She’s pretty new, so the many replies may have overwhelmed her.

Ack! Sorry, I confused the OP and a recent poster on the thread.

My sincere apologies.

 

[EasterJoy]

I get really tired of being told to be quiet about these issues because of starving children in Africa. That reminds me of the old trick about telling your kids to eat their veggies because of the same starving children. And it really does matter who is in charge. Ask any parish who is stuck with a real clunker of a pastor.

Mary was both a mother and a virgin and she is obviously the most idealized woman in Catholicism. And there is very much a lie down and think of Britain mentality when it comes to sex. Women as pure princesses aren’t supposed to enjoy sex but are supposed to lie back and deal with it for children. Of course, the greater vocation is dying as a teenaged virgin rather than marrying.

I don’t know what your Catholic mother taught you about sex, but mine didn’t teach me anything like “lie down and think of Britain.” Good grief, where do you *get *this stuff? I think you have been sold a bill of goods. These falsehoods about what the Church teaches about sex do not come from the Church, but from her attackers and those thieves and robbers who pretend to represent the Church in order to prey on the sheep (some from outside, but some also from within).

Catechism of the Catholic Church (boldface mine):

*2362 "The acts in marriage by which the intimate and chaste union of the spouses takes place are noble and honorable; the truly human performance of these acts fosters the self-giving they signify and enriches the spouses in joy and gratitude."145 Sexuality is a source of joy and pleasure:

The Creator himself . . . established that in the [generative] function, spouses should experience pleasure and enjoyment of body and spirit. Therefore, the spouses do nothing evil in seeking this pleasure and enjoyment. They accept what the Creator has intended for them. At the same time, spouses should know how to keep themselves within the limits of just moderation.146*

The teenaged virgin martyrs whose deaths were counted as deaths for the truth of the Gospel were usually exercising their right to refuse a marriage or a sexual advance they did not want. They were killed because they stuck to that part of our faith that gave each of them the right to decide who it would be whom they would give themselves to in marriage and whether or not to even marry at all!

St. Agatha was from an important Sicilian family. Of her own free will, she dedicated herself to God. As she grew to be a beauty whom local men desired in marriage, she had many proposals for marriage, which she refused. When she refused a particular Roman official, he had her arrested and imprisoned in a brothel, in order to force her to come around. She resisted all advances at the brothel, was abused there and eventually brought back before her spurned accuser. When she still would not consent to his desires, he sent her to prison and had her subjected to many cruel tortures before killing her. Do you see? She was killed for sticking up for her right to decide not to marry.

St. Lucy, likewise, was born into a rich family and secretly made her own vow to remain a virgin in order to dedicate herself to God alone. Not only did no one force her into it–no one else knew of it. She, too, enraged a would-be suitor and was sentenced to be sent to a brothel. She, too, resisted and was preserved by Providence, being martyred rather than having to accept the sexual enslavement of a forced marriage.

St. Maria Goretti was born to a poor Italian family. She was mortally wounded while resisting a would-be rapist, pleading with him to stop his offense against her and against the will of God. She was not yet 12 years old. She forgave her attacker from her death bed, and hoped he would be granted pardon by God. He came to repentance only after a conversion experience during his 30-year prison term. Her rapist spent the rest of his life after prison in a monastery, devoting himself to prayer and penance. He testified on her behalf at her at her cause for canonization, and was present with her family when she was eventually canonized in 1950.

Neither is it girls alone that the Church has recognized for their holy resistance to evil. St. Tarcisius was a twelve-year-old boy who served as an acolyte during one of the fierce Roman persecutions of the third century. At one point, there was no deacon to send the Eucharist to Christians imprisoned under a death sentence, and so St. Tarcisius was sent. On his way, he was stopped by some boys of roughly his own age who were not Christians but knew him as a playmate and lover of games. He was asked to join their games, but this time he refused, because he was carrying the Eucharist. This crowd of boys noticed that he was carrying something, recognized him as a Christian, and, anxious to view the Christian “Mysteries,” became a mob and turned upon him. He was rescued from the boys only after being badly beaten for not surrendering the Blessed Sacrament to them. He died as he was being carried back to the catacombs to be treated for his injuries. He, too, was a martyr who died while protecting the sacred from others who did not even recognize it as being worthy of protection but who were willing to kill in order to get what they wanted from someone.

 

[Xantippe]

OK, but most Catholic women are not upper-class Western women. They do care whether or not the Pope speaks out against marital rape, because the attitude that this offense against marriage is somehow OK affects them, and they are far more vulnerable than those of us who have laws protecting us from such things and the courage to seek out the protection of the law. A woman who has been victimized by her husband, of all people, can be very intimidated by him and can have her sense of her own worth undermined by him. He might be using the authority of the Church falsely, to cover his sin against his marriage vows. It is important that wives be emboldened to seek help in those sad situations, safe in the knowledge that the Church approves when wives seek safety from their own husbands. So let’s drop the patronizing “how nice of him” retort, shall we?

Yes.

 

[Xantippe]

I don’t know what your Catholic mother taught you about sex, but mine didn’t teach me anything like “lie down and think of Britain.” Good grief, where do you *get *this stuff?

**She’s supposed to be 30-something (?), which makes it all the more mysterious.

Isn’t the usual problem of Catholics that age, “I was told that marital sex would involve fireworks, feeling like a shampoo ad girl, and rose petals falling on me wherever I go, and I’m finding the reality rather disappointing”? I think the problem with TOB is overselling sex, not underselling it. **

The teenaged virgin martyrs whose deaths were counted as deaths for the truth of the Gospel were usually exercising their right to refuse a marriage or a sexual advance they did not want. They were killed because they stuck to that part of our faith that gave each of them the right to decide who it would be whom they would give themselves to in marriage and whether or not to even marry at all!

Yes.

 

[Sarcelle]

I don’t know what your Catholic mother taught you about sex, but mine didn’t teach me anything like “lie down and think of Britain.” Good grief, where do you *get *this stuff? I think you have been sold a bill of goods. These falsehoods about what the Church teaches about sex do not come from the Church, but from her attackers and those thieves and robbers who pretend to represent the Church in order to prey on the sheep (some from outside, but some also from within).

Catechism of the Catholic Church (boldface mine):

2362 "The acts in marriage by which the intimate and chaste union of the spouses takes place are noble and honorable; the truly human performance of these acts fosters the self-giving they signify and enriches the spouses in joy and gratitude."145 Sexuality is a source of joy and pleasure:

The Creator himself . . . established that in the [generative] function, spouses should experience pleasure and enjoyment of body and spirit. Therefore, the spouses do nothing evil in seeking this pleasure and enjoyment. They accept what the Creator has intended for them. At the same time, spouses should know how to keep themselves within the limits of just moderation.146

The teenaged virgin martyrs whose deaths were counted as deaths for the truth of the Gospel were usually exercising their right to refuse a marriage or a sexual advance they did not want. They were killed because they stuck to that part of our faith that gave each of them the right to decide who it would be whom they would give themselves to in marriage and whether or not to even marry at all!

St. Agatha was from an important Sicilian family. Of her own free will, she dedicated herself to God. As she grew to be a beauty whom local men desired in marriage, she had many proposals for marriage, which she refused. When she refused a particular Roman official, he had her arrested and imprisoned in a brothel, in order to force her to come around. She resisted all advances at the brothel, was abused there and eventually brought back before her spurned accuser. When she still would not consent to his desires, he sent her to prison and had her subjected to many cruel tortures before killing her. Do you see? She was killed for sticking up for her right to decide not to marry.

St. Lucy, likewise, was born into a rich family and secretly made her own vow to remain a virgin in order to dedicate herself to God alone. Not only did no one force her into it–no one else knew of it. She, too, enraged a would-be suitor and was sentenced to be sent to a brothel. She, too, resisted and was preserved by Providence, being martyred rather than having to accept the sexual enslavement of a forced marriage.

St. Maria Goretti was born to a poor Italian family. She was mortally wounded while resisting a would-be rapist, pleading with him to stop his offense against her and against the will of God. She was not yet 12 years old. She forgave her attacker from her death bed, and hoped he would be granted pardon by God. He came to repentance only after a conversion experience during his 30-year prison term. Her rapist spent the rest of his life after prison in a monastery, devoting himself to prayer and penance. He testified on her behalf at her at her cause for canonization, and was present with her family when she was eventually canonized in 1950.

When I was an atheist, I read somewhere was the reason why the Virgin Mary was held in high esteem by the Catholic church was the she alone was able to combine virginity with motherhood. For ordinary women, to become mothers they would have to give up virginity and have sex, which according to the Catholic church is sin even in the context of marriage. So the Catholic church esteemed Mary and the saints but held all other women in contempt. I was not raised in the Catholic church so I bought it hook, line, and sinker. So much so, that when I started my journey from unbelief to belief, I made sure to avoid going to the Catholic church.

As we all know, there’s a lot of misinformation about the Church out there.

 

[EasterJoy]

Originally Posted by EasterJoy View Post
I don’t know what your Catholic mother taught you about sex, but mine didn’t teach me anything like “lie down and think of Britain.” Good grief, where do you get this stuff?

**She’s supposed to be 30-something (?), which makes it all the more mysterious.

Isn’t the usual problem of Catholics that age, “I was told that marital sex would involve fireworks, feeling like a shampoo ad girl, and rose petals falling on me wherever I go, and I’m finding the reality rather disappointing”? I think the problem with TOB is overselling sex, not underselling it. **

The teenaged virgin martyrs whose deaths were counted as deaths for the truth of the Gospel were usually exercising their right to refuse a marriage or a sexual advance they did not want. They were killed because they stuck to that part of our faith that gave each of them the right to decide who it would be whom they would give themselves to in marriage and whether or not to even marry at all!

Yes

I do not get the sense from her posts that she is familiar with Theology of the Body. She sounds as if she has been taught by laypeople who are jealous of authority that they have not been given and frustrated that the Traditions of the Church are not subject to revision by them. This is not to be found in the New Testament, but just the opposite, excepting among those St. Paul used as examples of what NOT to do:

*If there is any encouragement in Christ, any solace in love, any participation in the Spirit, any compassion and mercy, complete my joy by being of the same mind, with the same love, united in heart, thinking one thing. Do nothing out of selfishness or out of vainglory; rather, humbly regard others as more important than yourselves, each looking out not for his own interests, but (also) everyone for those of others.

Have among yourselves the same attitude that is also yours in Christ Jesus,
Who, though he was in the form of God, did not regard equality with God something to be grasped.
Rather, he emptied himself, taking the form of a slave, coming in human likeness; and found human in appearance,
he humbled himself, becoming obedient to death, even death on a cross.
Because of this, God greatly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name,
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bend, of those in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

So then, my beloved, obedient as you have always been, not only when I am present but all the more now when I am absent, work out your salvation with fear and trembling. For God is the one who, for his good purpose, works in you both to desire and to work. Do everything without grumbling or questioning, that you may be blameless and innocent, children of God without blemish in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you shine like lights in the world, as you hold on to the word of life, so that my boast for the day of Christ may be that I did not run in vain or labor in vain. But, even if I am poured out as a libation upon the sacrificial service of your faith, I rejoice and share my joy with all of you. In the same way you also should rejoice and share your joy with me. I hope, in the Lord Jesus, to send Timothy to you soon, so that I too may be heartened by hearing news of you. For I have no one comparable to him for genuine interest in whatever concerns you. For they all seek their own interests, not those of Jesus Christ.*

Phil 2:1-21

 

[EasterJoy]

When I was an atheist, I read somewhere was the reason why the Virgin Mary was held in high esteem by the Catholic church was the she alone was able to combine virginity with motherhood. For ordinary women, to become mothers they would have to give up virginity and have sex, which according to the Catholic church is sin even in the context of marriage. So the Catholic church esteemed Mary and the saints but held all other women in contempt. I was not raised in the Catholic church so I bought it hook, line, and sinker. So much so, that when I started my journey from unbelief to belief, I made sure to avoid going to the Catholic church.

As we all know, there’s a lot of misinformation about the Church out there.

Yes, exactly. This is what you hear from people outside the Church. They have never heard of married women who are saints, such as St. Elizabeth, St. Nonna and her daughter, St Gorgonia, St. Monica, St. Helen, St. Elizabeth of Hungary (who had three children but is recognized as a noblewoman whose diligent care of the poor, done on her own initiative but entirely confirmed by her pious husband, included intense personal service and personal sacrifice), just to name a few.

People complain that there are very few married female saints, but the truth is that there are far more recognized saints among priests and consecrated religious and the unmarried in general (including the young St. Tarcisius and St. Maria Goretti) than among married laypeople. As St. Paul said, *“I should like you to be free of anxieties. An unmarried man is anxious about the things of the Lord, how he may please the Lord. But a married man is anxious about the things of the world, how he may please his wife, and he is divided. An unmarried woman or a virgin is anxious about the things of the Lord, so that she may be holy in both body and spirit. A married woman, on the other hand, is anxious about the things of the world, how she may please her husband. I am telling you this for your own benefit, not to impose a restraint upon you, but for the sake of propriety and adherence to the Lord without distraction.” *1 Cor. 7:32-35 It is not surprising that the role of canonized saints includes more Christians who said “yes” to an undivided state in life.

 

[edwest2]

Pope John Paul II approved and ordered the following Letter by Prefect Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger to be published.

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20040731_collaboration_en.html

Hope this helps,

Ed

 

[LightBound]

Let me get this straight- the member with the user name of sttcatherinefan, who is at odds with what she perceives to be Church teachings, is in her 30’s?

That would put her in the late 1980’s and early 1990’s when she was told the things she posted here? forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=12881188&postcount=172

The only thing I can come up with that would make her current age and her being told she couldn’t pursue things of a math or science nature because her job was to be a mommy and make babies would be that she is part of a recent immigrant from a country with very limited opportunities for women or she was raised in some radical traditionalist family similar to those found on a compound.

 

[agapewolf]

Let me get this straight- the member with the user name of sttcatherinefan, who is at odds with what she perceives to be Church teachings, is in her 30’s?

That would put her in the late 1980’s and early 90’s when she was told the things she posted here? forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=12881188&postcount=172

The only thing I can come up with that would make her current age and her being told she couldn’t pursue things of a math or science nature because her job was to be a mommy and make babies would be that she is part of a recent immigrant from a country with very limited opportunities for women or she was raised in some radical traditionalist family similar to those found on a compound.

To clarify…the words INSIDE the box were mine, but somehow the quoting got messed up.

 

[LightBound]

To clarify…the words INSIDE the box were mine, but somehow the quoting got messed up.

But this part was from “sttcatherinefan”, correct?

“I was good at math and smart as a child but was told that I couldn’t pursue those talents and that intelligence was a blip because my only role was to be a mommy and submissive housewife. Yes I could go to school and even work for a few years but my main duty was to catch a man, marry, and be a stay at home mommy. I couldn’t pursue any individual gifts and talents. I could be a flighty and awful housewife who couldn’t cook and clean and wasn’t good with kids, but because of my gender, that was my role in life.”

 

[agapewolf]

But this part was from “sttcatherinefan”, correct?

“I was good at math and smart as a child but was told that I couldn’t pursue those talents and that intelligence was a blip because my only role was to be a mommy and submissive housewife. Yes I could go to school and even work for a few years but my main duty was to catch a man, marry, and be a stay at home mommy. I couldn’t pursue any individual gifts and talents. I could be a flighty and awful housewife who couldn’t cook and clean and wasn’t good with kids, but because of my gender, that was my role in life.”

yes.

 

[LightBound]

yes.

Thank you. I went in to edit that part she wrote into bold and managed to delete my question.

Still don’t understand how a girl raised in that era, in a big city, was told those things by a Catholic school or the Church. I’m far older than she and back in school, we girls were encouraged to forge ahead with our education and consider careers other than teaching or nursing if we were interested in a field other than the traditional ones for women. I wonder again if she’s from a recent immigrant family and blames her parents’ choices for her on their cultural beliefs.

 

[Soletluna]

I love being a woman . I can make babies muahahahaha . And I am far from the feminine stereotype wearing flowery summer dresses, heels, makeup,…blablaba. That has nothing to do with defining a woman.

A woman submits *willingly. * to create something good. The problems come when a woman is made to submit, whether by another person, culture, or society. To force her to submit against her will (shame, economic, social pressure, etc) is to take away her rights as a woman.

Thank God for the Church, where a woman is allowed to Choose her Spouse. If an earthly one cannot be found, Jesus is there .

 

[Sarcelle]

I love being a woman . I can make babies muahahahaha . And I am far from the feminine stereotype wearing flowery summer dresses, heels, makeup,…blablaba. That has nothing to do with defining a woman.

A woman submits *willingly. * to create something good. The problems come when a woman is made to submit, whether by another person, culture, or society. To force her to submit against her will (shame, economic, social pressure, etc) is to take away her rights as a woman.

Thank God for the Church, where a woman is allowed to Choose her Spouse. If an earthly one cannot be found, Jesus is there .

Unfortunately, in a lot of places in the world, this is often the case. Women and children are often bought and sold as commodity.

 

[Xantippe]

Let me get this straight- the member with the user name of sttcatherinefan, who is at odds with what she perceives to be Church teachings, is in her 30’s?

That would put her in the late 1980’s and early 1990’s when she was told the things she posted here? forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=12881188&postcount=172

The only thing I can come up with that would make her current age and her being told she couldn’t pursue things of a math or science nature because her job was to be a mommy and make babies would be that she is part of a recent immigrant from a country with very limited opportunities for women or she was raised in some radical traditionalist family similar to those found on a compound.

Yes.

 

[Soletluna]

Unfortunately, in a lot of places in the world, this is often the case. Women and children are often bought and sold as commodity.

Yes, women ought to have the right to give themselves to whom they choose, and ideally that would be Jesus, the perfect Spouse. Men on earth have to imitate Him to be able to compete . The world would be a much better place with men who are like Him and women who submit to Him.

Haha too much biology and sexual selection - reading too much scientific papers…