Catholic teaching on gender roles

[sttcatherinefan]

Something to bear in mind is that people are going to be most passionate and engaged in talking about the path that they themselves have chosen. So, a model train hobbyist will be passionate about model trains, and a Trekkie won’t shut up about Star Trek.

So, too, with vocations. A SAHM (and this is particularly true of a new mother) will often have tunnel vision with regard to anything that isn’t kids and home stuff.

Because that is your job? Most people would feel quilty about not being completely busy as housewives especially if the family had to sacrifice because they weren’t working.

Even just in the secular world, the all-consumingness of early parenthood creates a lot of problems with regard to maintaining friendships with non-parents. This is a well-recognized problem that a lot of people have to grapple with, not just a Catholic problem.

Agreed. I no longer have friends because they all are married with children and are consumed by those. The only time they call is to set me up with someone’s loser cousin who is unemployed or to ask if I can babysit because single people have nothing better to do.

In my limited experience, among Catholics, Opus Dei has the best handle on what it means to live out one’s vocation in the working world, so that might be a good place for a single professional woman that was frustrated with SAHM-dom to look for inspiration. I’m sure that I wouldn’t like absolutely everything Opus Dei does, but I used to go to the women’s evenings of recollection at the Catholic Information Center in DC, and there were so many impressive single professional women there. Opus Dei is really good at helping people find a sense of vocation and mission in their work.

Yeah… Never. I have experiences with Opus Dei and don’t think that most Opus Dei members are for working mothers or professional women. When I was growing up, one of my friend’s moms became involved in Opus Dei and I ended up being estranged from my friend because of it. The mom had an over-the-top reaction to a unit that we were doing in school about self-esteem and pulled her daughter and put her in Opus Dei school. She tried to recruit my mom and after hearing the sales pitch, my mom decided that Opus Dei was very creepy. My mom still equates Opus Dei with all conservative Catholicism in general.

It is sad but so many Catholic lay groups are quite conservative. Way, way more conservative than I am.

 

[sttcatherinefan]

Let me get this straight- the member with the user name of sttcatherinefan, who is at odds with what she perceives to be Church teachings, is in her 30’s?

That would put her in the late 1980’s and early 1990’s when she was told the things she posted here? forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=12881188&postcount=172

The only thing I can come up with that would make her current age and her being told she couldn’t pursue things of a math or science nature because her job was to be a mommy and make babies would be that she is part of a recent immigrant from a country with very limited opportunities for women or she was raised in some radical traditionalist family similar to those found on a compound.

Hey… just to dispel myths. No I am not some recent immigrant… I am from an Irish-German middle class family and no we aren’t on some compound. I went to mainstream but conservative Catholic schools. Rick Santorum unfortunately went to my school and graduated around the same time my aunts did. And my parents were very supportive of me and my goals in life.

And yes there was still sexism around. But it was much more subtle than out and out you will be a housewife. I found that despite being smart, male friends received more encouragement to apply to more rigorous colleges by counselors in general. My parents were also dismissed more than once when I was in grade school and they wanted to discuss academic opportunities for me with the principal. Or there would be conversations in the classroom about the importance of women staying at home to raise kids. Or there would be boys who “complimented” me on being a great wife someday. I bit their heads off for that one BTW.

And yes, I’ve seen sexism among men in certain “conservative” Catholic groups like Ave Maria or Christendom. Here are some posts

catholicforum.com/forums/showthread.php?35467-No-pants-for-female-employees-at-Ave-Maria-U/page2
agiftuniverse.blogspot.com/2014/12/feminism-at-christendom.html

These sorts of stories aren’t shocking because I met men who went to such schools and they really aren’t fans of opinionated women. Most milennial men who are Catholic today tend to have retrograde attitudes toward women which is why I don’t date such men.

 

[sttcatherinefan]

I don’t know what your Catholic mother taught you about sex, but mine didn’t teach me anything like “lie down and think of Britain.” Good grief, where do you *get *this stuff? I think you have been sold a bill of goods. These falsehoods about what the Church teaches about sex do not come from the Church, but from her attackers and those thieves and robbers who pretend to represent the Church in order to prey on the sheep (some from outside, but some also from within).

My mom was the one who discussed sex in depth with me and I mean in depth because the school didn’t. They did discuss the male and female reproductive parts but not exactly what sex was. And I am talking about the attitude in general. And yes that means the virgin martyrs, especially the modern virgin martyrs. I have expressed the fact that I don’t like the modern virgin martyrs like Maria Goretti and I know that she and the others are upsetting to rape victims.

Most rape is date rape and isn’t a stranger violently putting a gun to someone’s head. How is someone who went on a date and got into a compromising situation with her date supposed to feel when the Church venerates victims of attempted rape for remaining “pure” rather than living. Yes, Maria did forgive her murderer which was lovely and should be commended but that isn’t the main reason why she is a saint.
mariagoretti.org/likoudisarticle3.htm

The worst on that page is this quote…

In his beautiful Homily, Pope John Paul II may be said to have summarized once again why the Catholic Church has canonized “a simple country girl who was born poor”. It was for her deep faith in Christ, for her ardent love of Christ and His Virgin-Mother, for her fervent witness to the Gospel-virtue of purity, and for her heroic fortitude in preferring death rather than to commit sin in submitting to molestation and rape.

So is it a sin to be the victim of rape or isn’t it? That certainly goes against Catholic teaching. And Maria Goretti isn’t the only one. Albertina Berkenbrock comes to mind; she was beatified. I’m not sure why exactly other than she died rather than submitting to rape. vatican.va/news_services/liturgy/saints/ns_lit_doc_20071020_berkenbrock_en.html

The midwife giving the dead child a virginity test is especially creepy.

 

[Xantippe]

Because that is your job? Most people would feel quilty about not being completely busy as housewives especially if the family had to sacrifice because they weren’t working.

**No, because people feel it to be a vocation. (Not in the Catholic sense, of course.)
/B]

Agreed. I no longer have friends because they all are married with children and are consumed by those. The only time they call is to set me up with someone’s loser cousin who is unemployed or to ask if I can babysit because single people have nothing better to do.

**Bummer.

You’ve seen for yourself how all-consuming early parenting can be.

It’s hopefully not a permanent state, but it’s definitely a psychologically common thing for young parents to become completely baby-centric.

We can’t really expect somebody in that condition to write measured, balanced essays on the beauties of various different callings. A lot of times, they simply cannot do it.

When any of my children were infants, I would have been horrified by the idea of daycare.
****

Yeah… Never. I have experiences with Opus Dei and don’t think that most Opus Dei members are for working mothers or professional women. When I was growing up, one of my friend’s moms became involved in Opus Dei and I ended up being estranged from my friend because of it. The mom had an over-the-top reaction to a unit that we were doing in school about self-esteem and pulled her daughter and put her in Opus Dei school. She tried to recruit my mom and after hearing the sales pitch, my mom decided that Opus Dei was very creepy. My mom still equates Opus Dei with all conservative Catholicism in general.

It is sad but so many Catholic lay groups are quite conservative. Way, way more conservative than I am.

I never got very deeply involved (and nobody was pressuring me to), but I found the single professional women at the evenings of recollection at the CIC in DC very impressive–very serious, very intelligent, very serious about their work. I still get the emails for their public talks, and they’re very interesting.

That’s what I myself have seen.

 

[Xantippe]

These sorts of stories aren’t shocking because I met men who went to such schools and they really aren’t fans of opinionated women. Most milennial men who are Catholic today tend to have retrograde attitudes toward women which is why I don’t date such men.

I think you see a lot of those men because they are still single and nobody’s hurrying to snap them up.

 

[Xantippe]

And yes there was still sexism around. But it was much more subtle than out and out you will be a housewife. I found that despite being smart, male friends received more encouragement to apply to more rigorous colleges by counselors in general. My parents were also dismissed more than once when I was in grade school and they wanted to discuss academic opportunities for me with the principal. Or there would be conversations in the classroom about the importance of women staying at home to raise kids. Or there would be boys who “complimented” me on being a great wife someday. I bit their heads off for that one BTW.

That’s interesting, because I lived as a Catholic in the US midwest/NE for 9 years and never heard a priest criticize education or jobs for women. A lot of that was living in the environs of a major Catholic university. We’ve lived nearly 8 years in the Bible belt in what you would think was a super conservative area and same story–I’ve never heard a priest criticize education or jobs for women.

By the way, the correct answer to the compliment (or “compliment”) is, “Ah, that’s sweet! I think you’ll be a great husband someday, too!” No head-biting-off required.

 

[LightBound]

That’s interesting, because I lived as a Catholic in the US midwest/NE for 9 years and never heard a priest criticize education or jobs for women. A lot of that was living in the environs of a major Catholic university. We’ve lived nearly 8 years in the Bible belt in what you would think was a super conservative area and same story–I’ve never heard a priest criticize education or jobs for women.

By the way, the correct answer to the compliment (or “compliment”) is, “Ah, that’s sweet! I think you’ll be a great husband someday, too!” No head-biting-off required.

I agree. I was raised in what many would call the “Bible Belt” and I have some decades on this young woman and haven’t encountered the things she has. What I have encountered was usually astonishment that women could go to college and do more than nursing or teaching and even a rare “now the broads are in charge, stupid women’s lib” attitude in the 1970’s from some disgruntled men, but not from the Church or family. I understand one can find a sexist attitude in many families, even those from the middle-class that have been in America since the 1800’s, however it’s not the norm and I’m surprised to see such an intelligent young woman as this spend her time bashing the Church as a whole for what she experienced that really wasn’t authentic Church teaching and for the silliness that can be found on the radical trad blogs.

 

[LightBound]

My mom was the one who discussed sex in depth with me and I mean in depth because the school didn’t. They did discuss the male and female reproductive parts but not exactly what sex was. And I am talking about the attitude in general. And yes that means the virgin martyrs, especially the modern virgin martyrs. I have expressed the fact that I don’t like the modern virgin martyrs like Maria Goretti and I know that she and the others are upsetting to rape victims.

Most rape is date rape and isn’t a stranger violently putting a gun to someone’s head. How is someone who went on a date and got into a compromising situation with her date supposed to feel when the Church venerates victims of attempted rape for remaining “pure” rather than living. Yes, Maria did forgive her murderer which was lovely and should be commended but that isn’t the main reason why she is a saint.
mariagoretti.org/likoudisarticle3.htm

The worst on that page is this quote…

So is it a sin to be the victim of rape or isn’t it? That certainly goes against Catholic teaching. And Maria Goretti isn’t the only one. Albertina Berkenbrock comes to mind; she was beatified. I’m not sure why exactly other than she died rather than submitting to rape. vatican.va/news_services/liturgy/saints/ns_lit_doc_20071020_berkenbrock_en.html

The midwife giving the dead child a virginity test is especially creepy.

The midwife was performing a forensic exam to see if she had been penetrated in the sexual attack- they do those in autopsies today if the victim was suspected to be sexually assaulted. I’m sure the prosecuting authorities in her region would like to have known that so it could added to the list of charges against the man who assaulted her.

 

[Sarcelle]

This is why I am very selective about what I read, especially when it comes to religious blogs or religious sites. There is so much misinformation out there that it can lead you astray. A good spiritual director is invaluable.

 

[tskrobacz]

As a recently confirmed Catholic (and a woman), I am frequently accused that the Church demeans women. My knee-jerk reaction was to say that God made men and women, not only men or only women. They are obviously different in many ways. Naturally, they should be suited for different duties. I was content with this explanation, but lately I have been thinking about it and it has been bothering me.

What is the precise teaching on the roles of men and women? I know that women are barred from the priesthood, but from what else are they barred? From what are men barred? Apart from physical attributes, what makes a man a man, according to the Church, and vice versa?

I have a person in my life who was born with a female body, but believes he is a male on the inside. Of course, it is between that person and God–only God knows what is in his heart. But what makes him feel he is a man, instead of a woman with stereotypically masculine interests? There is another person who believes they are neither male nor female.

There are other people in my life that insist that gender means nothing–that it is simply an illusion created by society. I can’t help but want to agree, especially if gender is something as shallow as knitting or playing basketball. But as a Catholic, I have read in the Bible that God created man and woman, so I want to believe that gender does mean something. But what does it mean?

For one thing, only a woman can bear a child, an eternal soul. Much of the confusion in our present time is due to the attempts by secular culture to make men and women equal in all things…simply, we are not. IMHO we need to celebrate the unique gifts that are Men and those that are Women. The church models this by preserving distinctly male and female roles. A great example for our times where so many believe the media and end up simply confused…

 

[Sarcelle]

For one thing, only a woman can bear a child, an eternal soul. Much of the confusion in our present time is due to the attempts by secular culture to make men and women equal in all things…simply, we are not. IMHO we need to celebrate the unique gifts that are Men and those that are Women. The church models this by preserving distinctly male and female roles. A great example for our times where so many believe the media and end up simply confused…

While it is true that only women can bear children, this fact should in no way blind us to the fact that women are much more than their reproductive capabilities. I for one object to being solely defined by my ability or inability to bear children. You can couch it in all the flowery words you want about differing roles. In the end it all smells the same. Women all over the world have been victimized by this view of them as baby makers.

It is not Catholic teaching to say that all women are meant to be housewives and mothers.

While men and women are different they are equally human.

(Rant over)

 

[Xantippe]

While it is true that only women can bear children, this fact should in no way blind us to the fact that women are much more than their reproductive capabilities. I for one object to being solely defined by my ability or inability to bear children. You can couch it in all the flowery words you want about differing roles. In the end it all smells the same. Women all over the world have been victimized by this view of them as baby makers.

It is not Catholic teaching to say that all women are meant to be housewives and mothers.

While men and women are different they are equally human.

(Rant over)

I think it is somewhat different to say that men ought to try to embrace a paternal role and paternal responsibility (even without biological fatherhood) and that women ought to embrace a maternal role and maternal responsibility (even without biological motherhood). And that view would actually fit better with the Catholic tradition’s enthusiasm for vocations that preclude biological parenthood. We know that biological motherhood is not the only thing that women are for because 1) it isn’t required in all cases and 2) it’s not even possible in all cases.

(My husband has a job where he has responsibility for the well-being of a couple dozen 20 and 30-somethings, and he definitely feels paternal responsibility for making sure that they do OK.)

 

[Zzyzx_Road]

Both paternal and maternal roles are critically important to raising the next generation. Which is really what we’re supposed to be about as a society. I think it’s too easy to lose sight of that in the various debates on the minutiae of interpreting this pope’s words or that pope’s while we live in a world that devalues family formation in a number of different ways.

 

[Xantippe]

Speaking of gender roles, I have recently noticed a very interesting fact about the Bible.

Have you ever noticed that there’s almost no mention of house-cleaning in the Bible? It simply does not occupy the sort of mental space that it does in our culture.

Also, here’s a run down of the Proverbs 31 woman’s work:

–does textile work from spinning to the manufacture of clothes
–makes arrangements to get good food from far away
–gets up early
–gets food for family
–sets female servants to work (???–not sure what "provides…portions for her female servants " means)
–buys land and plants a vineyard
–trades at a profit
–stays up late working
–helps the poor
–makes sure her whole household is warmly and well-dressed
–has an attractive home (“She makes coverings for her bed”)
–is well-dressed herself (“she is clothed in fine linen and purple”)
–she speaks with wisdom
–her children respect her (but you don’t hear concretely what work she does with them)

There are some interesting omissions there from the 21st century point of view–there’s no mention of housecleaning, there’s no mention of childcare, and there’s no mention of cooking. We hear about the getting and providing of food, but not the Proverbs 31 lady herself cooking it.

I feel like there’s an interesting point for comparison here with what one sees of gentry women’s work in Jane Austen’s novels. While the ladies of the house were able to outsource and delegate a lot of dirty work (heavy cleaning, cooking, laundry, quite a lot of childcare), time and time again, you see Jane Austen’s women slaving at their work baskets. Some of it is somewhat frivolous or ornamental production but some portion of it would be crucial repairs of clothing or the production of simple garments for the family (we see Fanny Price in Mansfield Park doing important work to get a younger brother’s clothing ready for him to go to sea). Before Walmart and before mass-produced clothing, clothing and textiles were much more expensive than they are today and consumed a much larger portion of the family budget.

There’s an interesting chart here showing how US spending on food and clothing collapsed between 1900 and 2003:

theatlantic.com/business/archive/2012/04/how-america-spends-money-100-years-in-the-life-of-the-family-budget/255475/

 

[kosull2]

I found that despite being smart, male friends received more encouragement to apply to more rigorous colleges by counselors in general.

I am in my late 30s and had similar experiences for enrolling in high school. The guys got to apply for scholarships to the Catholic all-boys schools, but no such scholarships existed for the all-girls Catholic schools. Oh and my parents got to pay more as I was enrolled in honors courses. That ticked my parents off in a big way, but I was too young (naive?) to get ticked off. I am glad that this has changed since 1990.

 

[Sarcelle]

I am in my late 30s and had similar experiences for enrolling in high school. The guys got to apply for scholarships to the Catholic all-boys schools, but no such scholarships existed for the all-girls Catholic schools. Oh and my parents got to pay more as I was enrolled in honors courses. That ticked my parents off in a big way, but I was too young (naive?) to get ticked off. I am glad that this has changed since 1990.

That is surprising.
Hmm, my cousins were enrolled in an all girls Catholic high school and academic achievement or high academic achievement was expected from all students. There was none of this, ‘Well you are a girl/minority so we don’t expect much of you.’ type of message being sent. There was the expectation that in everything one does, giving 100% of yourself is expected.

 

[Sarcelle]

I think it is somewhat different to say that men ought to try to embrace a paternal role and paternal responsibility (even without biological fatherhood) and that women ought to embrace a maternal role and maternal responsibility (even without biological motherhood). And that view would actually fit better with the Catholic tradition’s enthusiasm for vocations that preclude biological parenthood. We know that biological motherhood is not the only thing that women are for because 1) it isn’t required in all cases and 2) it’s not even possible in all cases.

(My husband has a job where he has responsibility for the well-being of a couple dozen 20 and 30-somethings, and he definitely feels paternal responsibility for making sure that they do OK.)

Implicit in this maternal role expectation, whether it be spiritual or physical motherhood, is the presumption of social skills. I expect spiritual/physical motherhood necessitates social skills in bucket loads. As an Aspie, I do not have social skills by the bucketload. The meager ones I have, were from years of struggle. So this expectation to be a mother is one that I will expect to fail.

 

[kosull2]

That is surprising.
Hmm, my cousins were enrolled in an all girls Catholic high school and academic achievement or high academic achievement was expected from all students. There was none of this, ‘Well you are a girl/minority so we don’t expect much of you.’ type of message being sent. There was the expectation that in everything one does, giving 100% of yourself is expected.

Of course it was expected, problem was there were no scholarships to be had at that time for students in all-girls Catholic schools whereas there were plenty for the boys (academically speaking - no idea what was available for athletics). Like I said, it has changed around here, but we have also lost a good deal of our all-girls Catholic schools in/around Chicago (Maria, Lourdes, Mt Assisi).

 

[Xantippe]

Implicit in this maternal role expectation, whether it be spiritual or physical motherhood, is the presumption of social skills. I expect spiritual/physical motherhood necessitates social skills in bucket loads. As an Aspie, I do not have social skills by the bucketload. The meager ones I have, were from years of struggle. So this expectation to be a mother is one that I will expect to fail.

As the mother of an Aspie girl and probably an undiagnosed one myself (Asperger’s wasn’t a thing when I was a kid), I think you’re selling yourself short.

You can always get just a little better, and just a little better is often all it takes.

 

[Sarcelle]

As the mother of an Aspie girl and probably an undiagnosed one myself (Asperger’s wasn’t a thing when I was a kid), I think you’re selling yourself short.

You can always get just a little better, and just a little better is often all it takes.

I still have no idea on how to be a spiritual mother.

It is harder to imagine myself in the role of mother than it is to imagine myself as a cat.