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Bonnie
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Correction - she wasn’t. I was confusing her with Phyllis Schlafly.
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DebChris
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I came from a stereotypical large Catholic family.
It was only when I was in high school that I learned that the science text books in my room actually belonged to my mother.
Catholic teaching, whether for the man or the woman, is about sacrificial love. My mother did give up many things to care for a growing family. She had to be strong to care the family when my father was away at war during my birth. Who did she have to help but my grandmother? So often during discussion about gender, we overlook the strength of women caring for families while men are off doing other things.
In today’s society, we see the single parent as a mother who gave birth without the benefit of marriage. We see families broken by divorce because fathers are not around to care for their families. We overlook the past when women, like my grandmother raised families as widows, passing on the Faith to both sons and daughters. Even today, we forget that there are soldiers fighting in wars across the seas, and it is the wife who cares for the children and mourns the man who may never return, or who returns with battle scars seen and unseen. We forget that sometimes the man must take over the responsibilities when he finds that he has become a widower.
A reading of scripture tells of the strength of women like Esther who risked her life to save her people. It was Persian law, not Hebrew law that mandated the king give permission for her to speak. Deborah ruled the Hebrew people as its first judge. Female saints defied social norms to bring education to young girls.
The parable of the 10 talents is not written only for men. It is written for all who read
scripture. We need to look past gender roles that may be defined by society to what it is that God is asking of us specifically as an individual.
If the male of the household is the better cook, let him cook, especially if that is what he enjoys. There is no written law that household chores cannot be shared. My husband loved to iron, so I folded. It’s called working together toward a common goal.
I am happy my parents never expected us to marry. That is a big step in life. As father was saying during his homily on the Good Shepard today, those are tremendous vows that spouses make.
It was only when I was in high school that I learned that the science text books in my room actually belonged to my mother.
Catholic teaching, whether for the man or the woman, is about sacrificial love. My mother did give up many things to care for a growing family. She had to be strong to care the family when my father was away at war during my birth. Who did she have to help but my grandmother? So often during discussion about gender, we overlook the strength of women caring for families while men are off doing other things.
In today’s society, we see the single parent as a mother who gave birth without the benefit of marriage. We see families broken by divorce because fathers are not around to care for their families. We overlook the past when women, like my grandmother raised families as widows, passing on the Faith to both sons and daughters. Even today, we forget that there are soldiers fighting in wars across the seas, and it is the wife who cares for the children and mourns the man who may never return, or who returns with battle scars seen and unseen. We forget that sometimes the man must take over the responsibilities when he finds that he has become a widower.
A reading of scripture tells of the strength of women like Esther who risked her life to save her people. It was Persian law, not Hebrew law that mandated the king give permission for her to speak. Deborah ruled the Hebrew people as its first judge. Female saints defied social norms to bring education to young girls.
The parable of the 10 talents is not written only for men. It is written for all who read
scripture. We need to look past gender roles that may be defined by society to what it is that God is asking of us specifically as an individual.
If the male of the household is the better cook, let him cook, especially if that is what he enjoys. There is no written law that household chores cannot be shared. My husband loved to iron, so I folded. It’s called working together toward a common goal.
I am happy my parents never expected us to marry. That is a big step in life. As father was saying during his homily on the Good Shepard today, those are tremendous vows that spouses make.
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sttcatherinefan
Guest
Edith Stein is one of the ones who coined the idea of feminine genius. John Paul II was a fan of her. I will stay far away from her because I think that John Paul II’s attitudes toward women and writings toward women were sexist.Pick up some biographies of female saints and read them.
Edith Stein would be a good starting place.
Teresa of Avila, too.
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sttcatherinefan
Guest
No these things aren’t official Church teachings but they are popular within Catholic culture and many of the clergy seem to agree with the idea of very strict gender roles up to and including the pope. I truly believe based on reading his words that Pope Francis is against professional working women or women leaders in general and that he has very specific and narrow ideas about women’s personalities. I get really tired of hearing constantly about how women are special tender and compassionate princesses or angels. It certainly doesn’t describe me as a woman and it certainly doesn’t describe any woman that I know. I think that John Paul II was just as bad based on reading some of his work.I think you need to distinguish more clearly between official church teaching and popular trends in Catholic life. I had something very similar happen to me where (thanks to the old-time CCL) I was sure that being Catholic was synonymous with a particular childcare philosophy: ecological breastfeeding, tandem nursing, cosleeping, babywearing, homeschooling, etc. It was like scales falling off my eyes when I realized that those things aren’t actually official church teaching
And yes this does trickle down to the laity. I’ve met laymen who have absorbed these sorts of stereotypes about women; I won’t date practicing Catholics (or conservative Evangelicals) because of it.
It isn’t enjoyable to cook when I get home from a long day at work. And I know that the Catholic Church doesn’t force women to be stay-at-home mommies but there is a huge strain of that in Catholic culture right now. The Catholic Church is a good 50 years or so behind society when it comes to accepting women as professionals, leaders, etc.I think a bright person like yourself ought to eventually learn how to cook (if only for your own personal enjoyment), but at the same time, I think you ought to look at actual church documents and see if they say anything about women needing to do every single bit of cooking and cleaning that goes on in a household. I think you will find that they don’t.
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Xantippe
Guest
She was a philosopher and single, you know and judging by her photographs, a tough cookie.Edith Stein is one of the ones who coined the idea of feminine genius. John Paul II was a fan of her. I will stay far away from her because I think that John Paul II’s attitudes toward women and writings toward women were sexist.
I’d still suggest reading her biography. My husband writes on some stuff connected to Karol Wojtyla’s thinking on sexuality, and when I asked him, what would you say to somebody that said that JPII was sexist, he said, “In what direction?” As a matter of fact, JPII takes it from both sides–you think he’s bad because he’s sexist, while I’ve recently discovered that there’s a variety of “Catholic traditionalist” that thinks that JPII is a feminist that gave the store away. See here:
iheardtheoldmansay.wordpress.com/2015/04/19/men-should-be-listened-to-less-and-should-carry-less-weight-in-church-and-society-pope-francis/
iheardtheoldmansay.wordpress.com/2015/03/11/bishop-demonstrates-jpii-destructiveness-doesnt-realize-it/
Or try Flannery O’Connor’s non-fiction.
goodreads.com/book/show/48462.Collected_Works
Her fiction is not my cup of tea, but the essays in that volume are all very insightful. I also love her collected letters (the title of the volume I’ve read is “The Habit of Being”).
I feel like there are a lot of Catholic role models for women that you are missing.
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Xantippe
Guest
The Catholic Church has had women running stuff since forever–convents, schools, hospitals, etc.And yes this does trickle down to the laity. I’ve met laymen who have absorbed these sorts of stereotypes about women; I won’t date practicing Catholics (or conservative Evangelicals) because of it.
Their loss, I’m sure.
It isn’t enjoyable to cook when I get home from a long day at work.
**Good. No one’s making you.
There’s no Grand High Kitchen Inquisitor that patrols the fridges and pantries in Catholic homes, checking for rotisserie chickens, brownie mixes, store-bought bread, and other signs of ungodliness.
**
And I know that the Catholic Church doesn’t force women to be stay-at-home mommies but there is a huge strain of that in Catholic culture right now.
**Yes.
So why don’t you stick around and give an alternate good example?
With regard to pressure, if you were a mother and read more media directed toward mothers, I think you’d have a very different view of where pressure is coming from. It’s not just (or even predominantly) a Catholic thing. There are a million sources of pressure for mothers:
–you’ve got to give up every single one of life’s pleasures while pregnant, from coffee to alcohol to hot baths to soft cheese
–you’ve got to do natural childbirth
–you’ve got to cloth diaper
–you’ve got to make your own baby food
–you’ve got to vaccinate
–you’ve got to avoid vaccinations
–you’ve got to breastfeed until preschool, pregnant or not
–you’ve got to work
–you’ve got to be a French mom
–you’ve got to be a Tiger Mom
–you’ve got to be a Free Range parent
–your kid isn’t potty trained yet???
–your kids aren’t eating enough vegetables
–your kids aren’t getting enough exercise
And it goes on and on and Catholicism has pretty much nothing to do with any of it.
**
The Catholic Church is a good 50 years or so behind society when it comes to accepting women as professionals, leaders, etc.
There are many professional women on CAF.
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LightBound
Guest
Sorry, but I don’t consider sedevacantists (like the pathetic, insecure, vulgar blogger you linked to) to be Catholic. They are simply Protestants that have Catholic devotions). They ceased being Catholic the second they began believing they knew better than the Church. I see your reason for posting such rubbish, but others not familiar with those in that camp need to know that** is not authentic Catholicism or Catholic teaching.She was a philosopher and single, you know and judging by her photographs, a tough cookie.
I’d still suggest reading her biography. My husband writes on some stuff connected to Karol Wojtyla’s thinking on sexuality, and when I asked him, what would you say to somebody that said that JPII was sexist, he said, “In what direction?” As a matter of fact, JPII takes it from both sides–you think he’s bad because he’s sexist, while I’ve recently discovered that there’s a variety of “Catholic traditionalist” that thinks that JPII is a feminist that gave the store away. See here:
iheardtheoldmansay.wordpress.com/2015/04/19/men-should-be-listened-to-less-and-should-carry-less-weight-in-church-and-society-pope-francis/
iheardtheoldmansay.wordpress.com/2015/03/11/bishop-demonstrates-jpii-destructiveness-doesnt-realize-it/
Or try Flannery O’Connor’s non-fiction.
goodreads.com/book/show/48462.Collected_Works
Her fiction is not my cup of tea, but the essays in that volume are all very insightful. I also love her collected letters (the title of the volume I’ve read is “The Habit of Being”).
I feel like there are a lot of Catholic role models for women that you are missing.
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DebChris
Guest
I just finished reading John Paul II’s Theology of the Body.
It took the creation of woman for man to realize that he was made in the image and likeness of God.
NFP demands that the man honor the woman’s body.
The Church also recognizes that it was the women who remained loyal to Christ at the crucifixion. With the exception of John, all the other men fled. A Samaritan woman recognized Jesus as the Messiah and evangelized an entire town. Nobody questioned why Our Lord broke protocol to speak to a woman, a Samaritan at that. It was women who discovered the empty tomb.
It took the creation of woman for man to realize that he was made in the image and likeness of God.
NFP demands that the man honor the woman’s body.
The Church also recognizes that it was the women who remained loyal to Christ at the crucifixion. With the exception of John, all the other men fled. A Samaritan woman recognized Jesus as the Messiah and evangelized an entire town. Nobody questioned why Our Lord broke protocol to speak to a woman, a Samaritan at that. It was women who discovered the empty tomb.
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edwest2
Guest
The Catholic Church does not have to follow social trends, especially since she knows what men and women are, their proper relationship toward each other and the true meaning of family. I’m sure the Church views Queen Elizabeth and other women in high office with respect. It is only when misunderstandings about roles occur does the Church comment.No these things aren’t official Church teachings but they are popular within Catholic culture and many of the clergy seem to agree with the idea of very strict gender roles up to and including the pope. I truly believe based on reading his words that Pope Francis is against professional working women or women leaders in general and that he has very specific and narrow ideas about women’s personalities. I get really tired of hearing constantly about how women are special tender and compassionate princesses or angels. It certainly doesn’t describe me as a woman and it certainly doesn’t describe any woman that I know. I think that John Paul II was just as bad based on reading some of his work.
And yes this does trickle down to the laity. I’ve met laymen who have absorbed these sorts of stereotypes about women; I won’t date practicing Catholics (or conservative Evangelicals) because of it.
It isn’t enjoyable to cook when I get home from a long day at work. And I know that the Catholic Church doesn’t force women to be stay-at-home mommies but there is a huge strain of that in Catholic culture right now. The Catholic Church is a good 50 years or so behind society when it comes to accepting women as professionals, leaders, etc.
therecord.com.au/news/world/brazilian-president-says-pope-will-visit-rio-aparecida-in-july/
Ed
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sttcatherinefan
Guest
So because near-sedevacanists who are slightly to the left of the Saudis in their thinking on women think that JPII was too nice to women that makes him a proto-feminist. The man would be considered a feminist circa 1960 but not circa 1990 and definitely not circa today. Pope Francis annoys me even more because his sexism is so blatant and easy to understand. As I said before, I am getting tired of being told that I am a special mummy and princess with extra tenderness and compassion. That isn’t who I am as a person and I am really getting tired of the benevolent sexism in the Catholic Church.I’d still suggest reading her biography. My husband writes on some stuff connected to Karol Wojtyla’s thinking on sexuality, and when I asked him, what would you say to somebody that said that JPII was sexist, he said, “In what direction?” As a matter of fact, JPII takes it from both sides–you think he’s bad because he’s sexist, while I’ve recently discovered that there’s a variety of “Catholic traditionalist” that thinks that JPII is a feminist that gave the store away. See here:
I struggle to remain in a church where the male leadership is so condescending toward women regardless of any Catholic woman.I feel like there are a lot of Catholic role models for women that you are missing.
Yes, but I don’t feel pressured to marry and have kids if I don’t want them by society as a whole. I feel comfortable as a single professional woman in my 30s who is a nerd. I don’t feel that way with the Church. I felt that the Church has demanded that I conform to certain stereotypes since I was in Catholic school.With regard to pressure, if you were a mother and read more media directed toward mothers, I think you’d have a very different view of where pressure is coming from. It’s not just (or even predominantly) a Catholic thing. There are a million sources of pressure for mothers:
Beating up on the nuns seems to be a favorite pasttime among the bishops.The Catholic Church has had women running stuff since forever–convents, schools, hospitals, etc.
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sttcatherinefan
Guest
NFP and Theology of the Body fail to recognize that women are sexual beings. It seems that the Church has issues with female sexuality in general.I just finished reading John Paul II’s Theology of the Body.
It took the creation of woman for man to realize that he was made in the image and likeness of God.
NFP demands that the man honor the woman’s body.
The Church also recognizes that it was the women who remained loyal to Christ at the crucifixion. With the exception of John, all the other men fled. A Samaritan woman recognized Jesus as the Messiah and evangelized an entire town. Nobody questioned why Our Lord broke protocol to speak to a woman, a Samaritan at that. It was women who discovered the empty tomb.
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sttcatherinefan
Guest
Yeah… Based on reading his comments over the last two years, I don’t think that Pope Francis thinks that women should be secular leaders or CEOs. He obviously deals with female presidents and prime ministers because he has to, but I think that if someone asked him what he really thinks about professional women or female leaders, he would say that he was against it because it was against the female nature. He has an even more weird and idealized version of the female identity than JPII did as a tender and sweet mummy and angelic princess. Sweet angelic princesses don’t become world leaders.The Catholic Church does not have to follow social trends, especially since she knows what men and women are, their proper relationship toward each other and the true meaning of family. I’m sure the Church views Queen Elizabeth and other women in high office with respect. It is only when misunderstandings about roles occur does the Church comment.
therecord.com.au/news/world/brazilian-president-says-pope-will-visit-rio-aparecida-in-july/
Ed
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Xantippe
Guest
So because near-sedevacanists who are slightly to the left of the Saudis in their thinking on women think that JPII was too nice to women that makes him a proto-feminist.
**JPII apparently even said, “I am the feminist pope,” so they’re not just making stuff up out of whole cloth.
usccbmedia.blogspot.com/2011/04/pope-john-paul-ii-feminist-pope.html**
The man would be considered a feminist circa 1960 but not circa 1990 and definitely not circa today. Pope Francis annoys me even more because his sexism is so blatant and easy to understand. As I said before, I am getting tired of being told that I am a special mummy and princess with extra tenderness and compassion. That isn’t who I am as a person and I am really getting tired of the benevolent sexism in the Catholic Church.
**That’s weird. Nobody ever tells me I’m a special mummy and princess!
So sad!
**
Yes, but I don’t feel pressured to marry and have kids if I don’t want them by society as a whole. I feel comfortable as a single professional woman in my 30s who is a nerd. I don’t feel that way with the Church. I felt that the Church has demanded that I conform to certain stereotypes since I was in Catholic school.
That’s odd, because lots of secular women report getting lots of pressure from society as a whole.
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Xantippe
Guest
I don’t see the connection between NFP and failing to realize that women are sexual beings.NFP and Theology of the Body fail to recognize that women are sexual beings. It seems that the Church has issues with female sexuality in general.
I have to say that what you said about TOB doesn’t ring true. Would you like to provide some quotes to support your views?
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Walking_Home
Guest
Yeah… ** Based on reading his comments over the last two years, I don’t think that Pope Francis thinks that women should be secular leaders or CEOs**. He obviously deals with female presidents and prime ministers because he has to, but I think that if someone asked him what he really thinks about professional women or female leaders, he would say that he was against it because it was against the female nature. He has an even more weird and idealized version of the female identity than JPII did as a tender and sweet mummy and angelic princess. Sweet angelic princesses don’t become world leaders.
I do not get that impression from Pope Francis . Recent statements from the Pope that – women’s not only be heard – but that women’s voice carry real weight/a recognized authority in society and in the Church.
This does not sound at all – like he is against women being part of the professional/corporate/leadership roles.
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sttcatherinefan
Guest
questionsfromaewe.blogspot.com/2013/10/reflections-on-theology-of-body.htmlI don’t see the connection between NFP and failing to realize that women are sexual beings.
I have to say that what you said about TOB doesn’t ring true. Would you like to provide some quotes to support your views?
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sttcatherinefan
Guest
As precious mummies and angels who complement men and temper their baser instincts. When I read Pope Francis’ thoughts on women, it doesn’t seem like he is in favor of strong and independent women who don’t conform to his stereotypes. It seems like he thinks that all women should act like an idealized version of his grandmother.
I do not get that impression from Pope Francis . Recent statements from the Pope that – women’s not only be heard – but that women’s voice carry real weight/a recognized authority in society and in the Church.
This does not sound at all – like he is against women being part of the professional/corporate/leadership roles.
Do these words strike you as someone who is in favor of strong and opinionated female leadership?
“We cannot forget the irreplaceable role of women in the family. The qualities of gentleness, of particular sensitivity and tenderness, which is abundant in the female soul, represent not only a genuine force for the life of families, for the irradiation of a climate of peace and harmony, but also a reality without which the human vocation would be unfeasible.”
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Xantippe
Guest
Quite the wall of text you got there.
How about pulling out the quotes that you believe demonstrate that TOB denies female sexuality?
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DebChris
Guest
That is not at all how I read it. Then again, all I read in your posts is much anger and an unwillingness to see anything from a different point of view.NFP and Theology of the Body fail to recognize that women are sexual beings. It seems that the Church has issues with female sexuality in general.
I never felt a need to marry. That is not how I was reared in a traditionally Catholic home. As mentioned previously, my parents were quite pragmatic. My brothers did housework, and as happens in any large family my parents knew how to delegate responsibility. Older siblings were responsible for younger siblings. I played chess and football, as well as doing yard work.My oldest brother was called “Betty Crocker” because he elected to take home economics at a time when it was uncool. As a 12 year old, he made the kimono for one of my mother’s Geisha dolls. He also spent 28 years in the Navy.
When I did marry, it was not because my husband met the criteria I had in my mind for an ideal spouse. Instead it was because I discovered those same traits within myself when I was with him. Of course, as my parish priest gave his homily on the Good Shepard this morning and linked it to the vows made it marriage, nobody is perfect. We are more often sheep than Shepard.
What Theology of the Body recognizes is the equal dignity of both the man and woman in a monogamous relationship. It is why John Paul II keeps going back to the beginning, and shows how polygamy and other types of relationships demean women. The sanctity of the sexual relationship for both the man and the woman is honored.
I did spend too many years trying to meet society’s standard of what it means to be a “perfect wife and mother.” Working, going to school, and trying to care for my family. This is beyond what God asks of any of us. We do not need to be “super women,” only what God wants us to be. That is something each of us needs to discover for ourselves.
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sttcatherinefan
Guest
There is a whole bunch of quotes there that suggest as much. JPII only saw women as mothers, not fully realized individuals.Quite the wall of text you got there.
How about pulling out the quotes that you believe demonstrate that TOB denies female sexuality?
Which oddly assumes that women don’t enjoy sex. JPII comes from the perspective that men shouldn’t force women to have sex. And yes, I agree that rape is bad. But the Church has such a fixation on female virginity that it doesn’t seem to realize that women enjoy sex.What Theology of the Body recognizes is the equal dignity of both the man and woman in a monogamous relationship. It is why John Paul II keeps going back to the beginning, and shows how polygamy and other types of relationships demean women. The sanctity of the sexual relationship for both the man and the woman is honored.
Yes, I am angry about being seen as second class in the Church for my entire life.That is not at all how I read it. Then again, all I read in your posts is much anger and an unwillingness to see anything from a different point of view.
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