Catholic teaching on societal roles

[vern_humphrey]

cynic:

vern,

from the real life example given near the beginning of the topic, you seem to be saying that every high school teacher should ultimately be aiming to be principal in order the fulfill their true potential. This is great, let’s start from there.

Was that my example? Or someone else’s?

cynic:

Let’s say a school with one principal nearing retirement has 40 young teachers on it’s staff. After another 15 years the principal retires. One teacher gets his job. That leaves another 39 teachers yet to fulfill their goal. So at the end these 15 years another 39 schools need to open up in the area (or anywhere in the country) for them to all be principals.

Ah, the old mercantilistic view.

How many new schools will open? How many schools will expand and create departments where before they had a single teacher?

How many expert teachers will write books, take contracts with educational television?

cynic:

This is an excellent anology for the unlimited economic growth theory you’ve proposed in other threads. I don’t expect you’ll answer with any specifics on how this works.

And it’s dead wrong – as I showed above.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon10.gif

 

[cynic]

And how many more children, just like consumers, are just going to pop out of nowhere so that everyone can achieve the kind of status that gives them this right to exist? Feel free to post links for any economic theories that support your position. Otherwise I’ll keep assuming your views are an irrational cover for treating people in positions of employment as losers who are lucky to get paid at all. That includes surgeons and engineers ofcourse, since they still rely on a wage, they aren’t totally self sufficient, which seems to be your measure of somebodies success and worth. ( not the actual value and importance and intellect involve what they do)

Many employees in the US don’t take their annual two weeks leave entitlement for fear of reprisal from their employers. I knew someone who worked in the states who said that the attitude was “well if you’re going to take a holiday, we’ll just get someone else to do your job”.

 

[vern_humphrey]

cynic:

And how many more children, just like consumers, are just going to pop out of nowhere so that everyone can achieve the kind of status that gives them this right to exist?

If you don’t know where children come from, ask your mother.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon10.gif

cynic:

Feel free to post links for any economic theories that support your position. Otherwise I’ll keep assuming your views are an irrational cover for treating people in positions of employment as losers who are lucky to get paid at all. That includes surgeons and engineers ofcourse, since they still rely on a wage, they aren’t totally self sufficient, which seems to be your measure of somebodies success and worth. ( not the actual value and importance and intellect involve what they do)

Is it possible to debate here and not launch personal attacks?

cynic:

Many employees in the US don’t take their annual two weeks leave entitlement for fear of reprisal from their employers. I knew someone who worked in the states who said that the attitude was “well if you’re going to take a holiday, we’ll just get someone else to do your job”.

And I knew someone who thought the earth was flat. http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon10.gif

 

[cynic]

vern humphrey:

Is it possible to debate here and not launch personal attacks?

http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon10.gif

while i don’t agree that anything I’ve said here is personal, the lack of specifics in you arguments is maddening. Are you a libertarian (economy wise) or not? What exact economic/social theories do you believe will work so that everyone can be boss? Is it a waste of time asking?

 

[vern_humphrey]

cynic:

while i don’t agree that anything I’ve said here is personal, the lack of specifics in you arguments is maddening.

What specifics have you given?

All I’ve seen is arguments like “If everyone wanted to borrow money to start a business, there wouldn’t be enough money.”

cynic:

Are you a libertarian (economy wise) or not?

I don’t pin labels on other people, and I don’t accept any labels they try to pin on me.

cynic:

What exact economic/social theories do you believe will work so that everyone can be boss? Is it a waste of time asking?

I believe in free markets and hard work.

To date, no one has offered any refutation of the principle of free markets except to say, “There isn’t enough . … <money. . . . . . or whatever.”

 

[Mickey]

ahimsaman72:

To me - success cannot be measured by dollars and cents only… We can only truly measure subjectively whether or not we are following God’s will for our lives and succeeding in our endeavors… Every person must ask themselves what have they done for God and fellow man. And, in the end we have to answer for that.

Right on ahimsaman72!

**In the matter of piety, poverty serves us better than wealth, and work better than idleness, especially since wealth becomes an obstacle even for those who do not devote themselves to it. Yet, when we must put aside our wrath, quench our envy, soften our anger, offer our prayers, and show a disposition which is reasonable, mild, kindly, and loving, how could poverty stand in our way? For we accomplish these things not by spending money but by making the correct choice. Almsgiving above all else requires money, but even this shines with a brighter luster when the alms are given from our poverty. The widow who paid in the two mites was poorer than any human, but she outdid them all. **

St. John Chrysostom

 

[ahimsaman72]

Mickey:

Right on ahimsaman72!

**In the matter of piety, poverty serves us better than wealth, and work better than idleness, especially since wealth becomes an obstacle even for those who do not devote themselves to it. Yet, when we must put aside our wrath, quench our envy, soften our anger, offer our prayers, and show a disposition which is reasonable, mild, kindly, and loving, how could poverty stand in our way? For we accomplish these things not by spending money but by making the correct choice. Almsgiving above all else requires money, but even this shines with a brighter luster when the alms are given from our poverty. The widow who paid in the two mites was poorer than any human, but she outdid them all. **

St. John Chrysostom

Hey thanks buddy!!!

Wow, I like this quote from St. John Chrysostom. Thanks for sharing this!

Peace…

 

[vern_humphrey]

Mickey:

Right on ahimsaman72!

**In the matter of piety, poverty serves us better than wealth, and work better than idleness, especially since wealth becomes an obstacle even for those who do not devote themselves to it. Yet, when we must put aside our wrath, quench our envy, soften our anger, offer our prayers, and show a disposition which is reasonable, mild, kindly, and loving, how could poverty stand in our way? For we accomplish these things not by spending money but by making the correct choice. Almsgiving above all else requires money, but even this shines with a brighter luster when the alms are given from our poverty. The widow who paid in the two mites was poorer than any human, but she outdid them all. **

St. John Chrysostom

If we are all poor, who will build the hospitals, schools and other things the really poor need?

If no one has anything to give, to whom will the destitute turn?

The widow with the two mites gained great personal merit – but those two mites didn’t go very far to help those in great need.

 

[cynic]

vern humphrey:

I believe in free markets and hard work.

but to what extent? Do you believe that the sole purpose for government is to pay for police, the court system, and defence? Do you believe that all labour protections such as lunch break, safety and holiday entitlements should be abolished?

 

[vern_humphrey]

cynic:

but to what extent? Do you believe that the sole purpose for government is to pay for police, the court system, and defence? Do you believe that all labour protections such as lunch break, safety and holiday entitlements should be abolished?

Do you believe those questions have any relevance?

Do you deny that we need hospitals, police, courts, schools and defense?

Do you deny that we have an obligation to provide these and many other services for our neighbors?

Do you think anyone would say we don’t need lunch breaks, and so on?

 

[cynic]

vern humphrey:

Do you believe those questions have any relevance?

Do you deny that we need hospitals, police, courts, schools and defense?

Do you deny that we have an obligation to provide these and many other services for our neighbors?

Do you think anyone would say we don’t need lunch breaks, and so on?

yes but should the government help provide those things, or should they be dependant on charity - and in the case of labour laws, employer discretion? again specifics.

 

[vern_humphrey]

cynic:

yes but should the government help provide those things, or should they be dependant on charity - and in the case of labour laws, employer discretion? again specifics.

Read the Constitution of the United States, and the constitution of whatever state you live in.

 

[cynic]

I do not live in the united states, but I’m guessing those issues aren’t covered by the constution. Doesn’t the constitution deal with individual liberty in relation to the government? not the role of government in terms of what taxes should be spent on etc. The free market in its absolute form means no government interference at all, no labouir laws, no guaranteed lunch breaks etc… tax as a neccessary evil to pay for the police/courts, no funding for education, each man provides everything for himself and his children, including private tuition/schooling…

 

[vern_humphrey]

cynic:

I do not live in the united states, but I’m guessing those issues aren’t covered by the constution.

The Constitution, especially Article I, Section 8, lays out the duties and powers of the government.

State constitutions lay out the duties and powers of the state.

cynic:

Doesn’t the constitution deal with individual liberty in relation to the government?

Inot the role of government in terms of what taxes should be spent on etc.

No. Read Article I, Section 8 for a basic primer. You might also read Amendment 10.

cynic:

IThe free market in its absolute form means no government interference at all, no labouir laws, no guaranteed lunch breaks etc… tax as a neccessary evil to pay for the police/courts, no funding for education, each man provides everything for himself and his children, including private tuition/schooling…

Says who?

You seem to think free market is a synonym for anarchy. It isn’t.

 

[Mickey]

vern humphrey:

If we are all poor, who will build the hospitals, schools and other things the really poor need?

If no one has anything to give, to whom will the destitute turn?

The widow with the two mites gained great personal merit – but those two mites didn’t go very far to help those in great need.

Hi Vern!

You must think of this on another level. St John Climacus (of the ladder) is referring to our passions. To be poor in his eyes, is to be rich in virtues and constantly battling the passions through spiritual warfare. The truly wealthy man is a humble man. You should read his book, “The Divine Ladder of Ascent”. It’s exellent!

Peace,
Mickey

 

[vern_humphrey]

Mickey:

Hi Vern!

You must think of this on another level. St John Climacus (of the ladder) is referring to our passions. To be poor in his eyes, is to be rich in virtues and constantly battling the passions through spiritual warfare. The truly wealthy man is a humble man. You should read his book, “The Divine Ladder of Ascent”. It’s exellent!

Peace,
Mickey

I have, but the point remains; If we are all poor, who will build the hospitals, schools and other things the really poor need?

If no one has anything to give, to whom will the destitute turn?

 

[Loboto-Me]

I suppose St Francis was a bum who was not fulfilling Gods will whether he brought people to God or not?

Has anyone thought that Gods Will may not be about your occupation so much as to HOW you use your life? How you bring people back to God, how you uplift them WHATEVER your lot in life?

Those that were at the top through God’s Will, but then stuff happened, they lost those jobs, they made bad financial choices. Does that mean that because of those lost jobs they’re not following God’s Will? Can it be possible for that family man, living in the poor tenements to use his misfortune to the best of his life circumstances? Would it be possible for this man to bring people to God? To help a poor old neighbour? God’s Will is not only about occupation.

Please forgive me if this has already been mentioned (I only read half of the posts and knew if I didn’t say this, I’d forget what I wanted to say)

 

[Mickey]

vern humphrey:

I have, but the point remains; If we are all poor, who will build the hospitals, schools and other things the really poor need?

If no one has anything to give, to whom will the destitute turn?

That’s not the point. It is not a sin to have money. You can be wealthy and **poor **in spirit or you can be wealthy and virtuous through faith, obedience, almsgiving etc.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Mickey:

That’s not the point. It is not a sin to have money. You can be wealthy and **poor **in spirit or you can be wealthy and virtuous through faith, obedience, almsgiving etc.

I agree with you 100%.

But I go on to ask, “If being poor is a virtue (as some seem to claim) and we are all virtuous – who will build the hospitals, schools, and so on? To whom will the really destitute turn?”

We agree that the “rich” should give to the poor (sometimes through forced taxation.) I suggest that a healthy person who fails to use the talents God gave him is no better than a “rich” man who acts like a miser.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Loboto-Me:

I suppose St Francis was a bum who was not fulfilling Gods will whether he brought people to God or not?

Has anyone thought that Gods Will may not be about your occupation so much as to HOW you use your life? How you bring people back to God, how you uplift them WHATEVER your lot in life?

Is it God’s will that we waste the talents and abilities He has given us?

Is it God’s will that the poor lack bread and medical care, while other people with the ability to create jobs and help them refuse to bestir themselves?

Loboto-Me:

Those that were at the top through God’s Will, but then stuff happened, they lost those jobs, they made bad financial choices. Does that mean that because of those lost jobs they’re not following God’s Will?

That could be one explanation for bad decisions – of course, it also holds for those who never bestirred themselves as much as for those who built and lost a business.

Loboto-Me:

Can it be possible for that family man, living in the poor tenements to use his misfortune to the best of his life circumstances? Would it be possible for this man to bring people to God? To help a poor old neighbour? God’s Will is not only about occupation.

But neither is it not about occupations or vocations.

God gives us talents. He expects us to make use of them.