Catholic to Mormon to Catholic?

[C2M2C]

To be brief I was raised Catholic and when I was 18 living in Utah I was given a Book of Mormon. I was told to read it and pray about it as stated in John 1:5 and Moroni 10:4. I did, felt the “burning in the bosom” and now 18 years later I have been a Mormon ever since, married in the Temple, heavily involved in the youth program of my ward, four kids, the oldest of which I just baptized last month, and deeply entrenched in Utah Mormon culture, etc, etc, etc. If you live in Utah and are a Mormon or were, you know what I mean.

The problem began about a month ago when searching for something on Google I came across some Mormon church history. I studied, learned and became a little “too familiar” with the Church’s past. Needless to say, a reasonable person could no longer continue as a Mormon knowing the truth.

So here I am, wondering where do I go from here. A study of the doctrine of the Catholic church or any other church for that matter is secondary to me in a way because the primary concern is finding the true church, Christ’s church. Then the doctrine will matter. In other words, if the Mormons are right then their idea of Heaven is right, same with Catholics. I have a good “general” sense of Catholic teachings but if the church is not the true one, then the doctrine is irrelevant.

So how do I know? How do I find out? I understand Apostolic succession and to a certain extent I think I believe it. The history makes sense and adds up but my problem is that as a Mormon I was told to “study it out” come up with what I felt to be the right answer and then ask God for a confirmation. So what do Catholics do?
How do you pray for an understanding of these things? How do you get answers? Do you get answers? How do they come? Feelings, promptings, thoughts, signs?

As a Mormon I felt like I had answers to almost everything and if I didn’t i need do nothing more than pray about it. I now no longer trust what I feel.

To a certain extent, scriptural backing is almost irrelevant too. Why? Because almost everyone can find or quote scriptures that back or “prove” their belief. Catholics can and so can Mormons and Born Agains.

I am distraught, sad, mad, confused and I need help. Prayers, thoughts, suggestions? Any or all would be helpful.

Regards

C2M2C?

 

[1holycatholic]

Read the Early Church Fathers.

 

[PaulDupre]

A study of the doctrine of the Catholic church or any other church for that matter is secondary to me in a way because the primary concern is finding the true church, Christ’s church. Then the doctrine will matter. In other words, if the Mormons are right then their idea of Heaven is right, same with Catholics. I have a good “general” sense of Catholic teachings but if the church is not the true one, then the doctrine is irrelevant.

How will you decide which Church is Christ’s true Church except to study the doctrines? There is no other way to tell.

Read the bible and the Early Church Fathers, then read the Catechism of the Catholic Church. You will see that the Catholic Church still teaches the same doctrines as the apostles and the earliest Christians.

 

[C2M2C]

How will you decide which Church is Christ’s true Church except to study the doctrines? There is no other way to tell.

Read the bible and the Early Church Fathers, then read the Catechism of the Catholic Church. You will see that the Catholic Church still teaches the same doctrines as the apostles and the earliest Christians.

Understood. The problem, it seems to me, is that it’s easy to justify what we want to believe. As I read the posts on this site I see a lot of people quoting scriptures to prove their claim. Just as a Mormon I have been shown and taught scriptures that were used to justify Mormon claims. I guess the real issue is trust. Trust in myself. I was duped once and I have to be honest I am really, really comfortable in my Mormon world and really, really don’t want to make changes that are going to be very difficult to deal with. Not just for me but for my wife and kids. I know what Mormons do to those who leave the church. They make it very difficult. I have already told my wife to expect that we will lose a lot of very good friends. So, having said that, I did study the doctrine once before and I followed what the missionaries taught me- study, ponder, and pray. I did just that and received what I took to be a confirmation of the Holy Spirit that the Book of Mormon is true.

Knowing what I know now, I do not see how that is possible. So what was that “confirmation” or “burning in the bosom” that I felt 18 years ago? I did study the doctrine and I believed in the three kingdoms of glory, and eternal marriage, and the need to go to three hours of church and church callings, etc, etc, etc. Where did that get me? That’s why I say that a study of the doctrine is almost secondary at this point. I understand your point and agree to a certain extent. But from my point of view I was given an undeniable sign, or “revelation” that the BoM was true and that Joseph Smith was a true profit. That came after a study of the doctrine. So I then believed in all of the doctrine of the LDS church, even the stuff that I may have thought was a little off the wall, especially the endowment ceremony. But since I felt that “burning”, if “that” part was true, then all of the rest had to be true- just as we’re taught.

So at this point, considering what my understanding is of the Catholic church, there are some things that are a little weird because of my Mormon background, but if through study and prayer I come to the conclusion that the Catholic church is the true church then I will accept all of it’s doctrine and teachings as true as well.

As stated earlier I understand the Catholic church’s claim of Apostolic succession and I am leaning in the direction of accepting that myself. But there are problems with Catholic history that I struggle with. There are other churches that claim Apostolic succession for one. From the Mormon perspective, I believed that there was a Prophet to whom the Lord spoke for our benefit. Having that in mind I struggle with the changes to doctrine, or the “clarifying” of doctrine that has happened over time in the Catholic church. Were those “clarifications” made by men of their own feelings or thoughts or ideas, or were those men directed by the spirit? If they were made by men then they have the potential for being wrong. If they were made by men who were divinely inspired, then isn’t that revelation? And if I understand correctly doesn’t the Catholic church claim that revelation ended at the close of biblical times?

Maybe I’m confused on the history, so if I am someone please correct me.

I hope what I am saying makes sense. I have a lot of concerns and am bothered by a lot of things that I don’t have time to go into right now. But maybe as time goes on I can go into further detail and get more answers from people on this site that hopefully know much much more than I do.

Thank you.

 

[RebeccaJ]

To be brief I was raised Catholic and when I was 18 living in Utah I was given a Book of Mormon. I was told to read it and pray about it as stated in John 1:5 and Moroni 10:4. I did, felt the “burning in the bosom” and now 18 years later I have been a Mormon ever since, married in the Temple, heavily involved in the youth program of my ward, four kids, the oldest of which I just baptized last month, and deeply entrenched in Utah Mormon culture, etc, etc, etc. If you live in Utah and are a Mormon or were, you know what I mean.

The problem began about a month ago when searching for something on Google I came across some Mormon church history. I studied, learned and became a little “too familiar” with the Church’s past. Needless to say, a reasonable person could no longer continue as a Mormon knowing the truth.

So here I am, wondering where do I go from here. A study of the doctrine of the Catholic church or any other church for that matter is secondary to me in a way because the primary concern is finding the true church, Christ’s church. Then the doctrine will matter. In other words, if the Mormons are right then their idea of Heaven is right, same with Catholics. I have a good “general” sense of Catholic teachings but if the church is not the true one, then the doctrine is irrelevant.

So how do I know? How do I find out? I understand Apostolic succession and to a certain extent I think I believe it. The history makes sense and adds up but my problem is that as a Mormon I was told to “study it out” come up with what I felt to be the right answer and then ask God for a confirmation. So what do Catholics do?
How do you pray for an understanding of these things? How do you get answers? Do you get answers? How do they come? Feelings, promptings, thoughts, signs?

As a Mormon I felt like I had answers to almost everything and if I didn’t i need do nothing more than pray about it. I now no longer trust what I feel.

To a certain extent, scriptural backing is almost irrelevant too. Why? Because almost everyone can find or quote scriptures that back or “prove” their belief. Catholics can and so can Mormons and Born Agains.

I am distraught, sad, mad, confused and I need help. Prayers, thoughts, suggestions? Any or all would be helpful.

Regards

C2M2C?

Hi, I live in Utah. I was raised in the Mormon church, went atheist for a long time, and converted to Catholicism (fairly recently).

I understand all of what you are saying, the difficulties, of trusting. The requirement to find something that is solid, after feeling the ground be swept out from under your feet. And that you have a sense of what those requirements must be, but may also be questioning that solid truth actually exists. Does that sound like where you are at?

As to feelings, that is something that is unique to Mormonism. I have a good Catholic friend who is also a former Mormon. We have had many discussions regarding this aspect of Mormonism and how it compares to Catholicism. Pretty much, feelings are not a good measurement of truth. And the first thing mormonism teaches anyone, is what your feelings mean. You are, essentially, trained to run on feelings. Which feelings are given definitions by an organization outside of yourself.

I recommend that you join RCIA (Rite of Christian Initiation for Adults). They are just starting up right now in parishes across Utah, and are held in almost every parish across the USA.

RCIA is not a Mormon-like proselyting tool. They are classes, held one night a week, where Catholics teach Catholic doctrine. You would be what the Catholic Church calls and inquirer. No one will force you to do anything. No pressure to convert. If you decide to stop going no one is going to track you down. But it is by far the best place for a new convert or returning Catholic to get answers, from real live people.

I also recommend visiting the blog of Deacon Dodge, who is a Deacon at the Cathedral of the Madeleine. He is also a former Mormon. If you search his blog for your questions, you will find that he has addressed some of them. And, he is very generous with his time and will answer any emails you send his way.

God bless, and you are in my prayers. Feel free to PM me.

 

[Lion_of_Narnia]

Understood. The problem, it seems to me, is that it’s easy to justify what we want to believe. As I read the posts on this site I see a lot of people quoting scriptures to prove their claim. Just as a Mormon I have been shown and taught scriptures that were used to justify Mormon claims. I guess the real issue is trust. Trust in myself. I was duped once and I have to be honest I am really, really comfortable in my Mormon world and really, really don’t want to make changes that are going to be very difficult to deal with. Not just for me but for my wife and kids. I know what Mormons do to those who leave the church. They make it very difficult. I have already told my wife to expect that we will lose a lot of very good friends. So, having said that, I did study the doctrine once before and I followed what the missionaries taught me- study, ponder, and pray. I did just that and received what I took to be a confirmation of the Holy Spirit that the Book of Mormon is true.

Knowing what I know now, I do not see how that is possible. So what was that “confirmation” or “burning in the bosom” that I felt 18 years ago? I did study the doctrine and I believed in the three kingdoms of glory, and eternal marriage, and the need to go to three hours of church and church callings, etc, etc, etc. Where did that get me? That’s why I say that a study of the doctrine is almost secondary at this point. I understand your point and agree to a certain extent. But from my point of view I was given an undeniable sign, or “revelation” that the BoM was true and that Joseph Smith was a true profit. That came after a study of the doctrine. So I then believed in all of the doctrine of the LDS church, even the stuff that I may have thought was a little off the wall, especially the endowment ceremony. But since I felt that “burning”, if “that” part was true, then all of the rest had to be true- just as we’re taught.

So at this point, considering what my understanding is of the Catholic church, there are some things that are a little weird because of my Mormon background, but if through study and prayer I come to the conclusion that the Catholic church is the true church then I will accept all of it’s doctrine and teachings as true as well.

As stated earlier I understand the Catholic church’s claim of Apostolic succession and I am leaning in the direction of accepting that myself. But there are problems with Catholic history that I struggle with. There are other churches that claim Apostolic succession for one. From the Mormon perspective, I believed that there was a Prophet to whom the Lord spoke for our benefit. Having that in mind I struggle with the changes to doctrine, or the “clarifying” of doctrine that has happened over time in the Catholic church. Were those “clarifications” made by men of their own feelings or thoughts or ideas, or were those men directed by the spirit? If they were made by men then they have the potential for being wrong. If they were made by men who were divinely inspired, then isn’t that revelation? And if I understand correctly doesn’t the Catholic church claim that revelation ended at the close of biblical times?

Maybe I’m confused on the history, so if I am someone please correct me.

I hope what I am saying makes sense. I have a lot of concerns and am bothered by a lot of things that I don’t have time to go into right now. But maybe as time goes on I can go into further detail and get more answers from people on this site that hopefully know much much more than I do.

Thank you.

You are definetly in my prayers.

In terms of apostolic sucession–does it make ANY sense that Jesus would promise “the gates of hell” (the devil NOT death) would not stand against his Church and that "I will be with you always (“for all the ages” literally) or “I will not leave you orphans” and then abandon his Church once the last apostle died–and do so for 1800 years until a Upstate NY conman (fortune seeker) gets chosen to “restore” the (Mormon) “gospel” that has NO mention of its unique doctrines in either the NT or the Early Church Fathers (even if the later were “apostates” why DIDNT they mention these “plain and simple things” if only to refute them–like they did in great detail the other heresies they saw as threats???)

 

[RebeccaJ]

Understood. The problem, it seems to me, is that it’s easy to justify what we want to believe. As I read the posts on this site I see a lot of people quoting scriptures to prove their claim. Just as a Mormon I have been shown and taught scriptures that were used to justify Mormon claims.

C2M2C, prayer comes first. Ask God to guide you to where He wants you to be, and then trust Him.

I guess the real issue is trust. Trust in myself. I was duped once

Yes, I understand this. Again, prayer, and patience with yourself and God. He will answer your prayers.

and I have to be honest I am really, really comfortable in my Mormon world and really, really don’t want to make changes that are going to be very difficult to deal with. Not just for me but for my wife and kids. I know what Mormons do to those who leave the church. They make it very difficult. I have already told my wife to expect that we will lose a lot of very good friends.

Take it slow. God is there for you and if/when you come to this point, where you are certain, continue to trust God. While at the same time, use the same love and patience with your family. And take the time to prepare yourself to possibly lose friends, while understanding, you have much to gain.

When you come to this point, you will know, and the struggle you are feeling regarding this will lessen. But in the long run, don’t let fear prevent you from going where God leads you.

So, having said that, I did study the doctrine once before and I followed what the missionaries taught me- study, ponder, and pray. I did just that and received what I took to be a confirmation of the Holy Spirit that the Book of Mormon is true.

Knowing what I know now, I do not see how that is possible. So what was that “confirmation” or “burning in the bosom” that I felt 18 years ago?

This is something you are going to have to figure out, as, where I said already that Mormonism tells you what your feelings are, I don’t believe in any way that anyone else can tell you what your feelings mean. That is something you are going to have to come to understand…what your own feelings mean.

I did study the doctrine and I believed in the three kingdoms of glory, and eternal marriage, and the need to go to three hours of church and church callings, etc, etc, etc. Where did that get me?

This is a common feeling of people who have become disillusioned with Mormonism. Where you need to be careful here, is to not let this turn to bitterness.

That’s why I say that a study of the doctrine is almost secondary at this point. I understand your point and agree to a certain extent. But from my point of view I was given an undeniable sign, or “revelation” that the BoM was true and that Joseph Smith was a true profit. That came after a study of the doctrine. So I then believed in all of the doctrine of the LDS church, even the stuff that I may have thought was a little off the wall, especially the endowment ceremony. But since I felt that “burning”, if “that” part was true, then all of the rest had to be true- just as we’re taught.

Yet, you are clearly at a place where you believe that something is false about Mormonism. And yet, you believe all of the message of the Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke, John) are not false. This, you should be grateful for, and hold onto that like it is life itself.

So at this point, considering what my understanding is of the Catholic church, there are some things that are a little weird because of my Mormon background, but if through study and prayer I come to the conclusion that the Catholic church is the true church then I will accept all of it’s doctrine and teachings as true as well.

Study what is weird to you. Ask God to guide you.

As stated earlier I understand the Catholic church’s claim of Apostolic succession and I am leaning in the direction of accepting that myself. But there are problems with Catholic history that I struggle with. There are other churches that claim Apostolic succession for one.

I found that it helped for me to write down my struggles, and then as I studied and those struggles came to a resolution, I wrote down what I had come to believe. And kept on going from there, onto the next struggle (they seemed endless to me!)

From the Mormon perspective, I believed that there was a Prophet to whom the Lord spoke for our benefit. Having that in mind I struggle with the changes to doctrine, or the “clarifying” of doctrine that has happened over time in the Catholic church. Were those “clarifications” made by men of their own feelings or thoughts or ideas, or were those men directed by the spirit? If they were made by men then they have the potential for being wrong. If they were made by men who were divinely inspired, then isn’t that revelation? And if I understand correctly doesn’t the Catholic church claim that revelation ended at the close of biblical times?

A struggle, that you can study and pray and come to understand. The apologetics forum here, is a good place to ask. If you are a reader (not everyone is), then people can usually suggest books on the topic you are focusing on.

Maybe I’m confused on the history, so if I am someone please correct me.

I don’t know that you are confused. However, as you study you will find that pop culture and anti-Catholic sentiments have not presented the entire history.

That doesn’t mean we whitewash away the truth. No. There were some less than stellar moments and even Popes in the Catholic Church. We don’t pretend that isn’t so.

I hope what I am saying makes sense. I have a lot of concerns and am bothered by a lot of things that I don’t have time to go into right now. But maybe as time goes on I can go into further detail and get more answers from people on this site that hopefully know much much more than I do.

Thank you.

Take all the time you need.

 

[William_Putnam]

Read the Early Church Fathers.

Indeed!

And one wonderful way to disciver the True Church of christ is to study her history, leet’s say,m the best way you cdan from Pentdcody, until about A.D. 1000, where “history” demonstrqates the only Church around during that time pereiod - no other church existed - other then the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church

A good place to read what the early church fathers said:

cin.org/users/jgallegos/catholic.htm

From which I quote one of the earliest of the Church fathers, St. Ignatius, Bishop of Antioch:

“See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Christ Jesus does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles. Do ye also reverence the deacons, as those that carry out[through their office] the appointment of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is[administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude[of the people] also be; by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude[of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.”
Ignatius of Antioch,Epistle to the Smyrneans, 8:2(A.D. 110),in ANF,I:89

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+

Christus Vincit! Christus Regnat! Christus Imperat!

 

[Contrabass101]

Dear C2M2C,

You are in my prayers.

I would like to address your questions on the development of doctrine. It is a huge topic and I offer only a small insight into it. I am not a scholar, so I may get some points wrong.

Fact is, doctrines do develop. The ancient church did not “believe” in the Trinity, the Hypostatic Union or the Filioque in the same way as we do today. And yet, there is a continuity from then to now. But we’ll come to that. First the premises.

1. It is an essential part of Christianity that there is one revelation in Jesus Christ. Christ is the Word come in flesh, he is the fulness of truth and the end of revelation. God’s revelation to the world is not words, but a Word - the Word.
2. There have been since then “private revelation” which are not necessary to believe for salvation, nor do they bring anything essentially new to the revelation. But they encourage the faithful to endure, live holy lives, trust in God, and pray fervently. In short, they are known by their fruits. One such example is the apparition of Our Lady at Fatima.
3. While the fulness of truth was revealed in Christ, it is not static, but dynamic. Jesus tells a parable where he compares the Kingdom of God to a mustard seed. In the beginning, it is small, but it grows and becomes a grand tree with many branches. And the birds of the sky find their rest in it. Likewise the Kingdom: in the beginning, it was a small community in Jerusalem, who at first did not know, whether non-Jews were to be circumcised to become Christians, but today it is a massive Church with a rich theology and tradition, in which the “birds of the sky” find their rest. I am one of those birds

3a) If then, doctrine indeed develops, which it seems very much from church history, how do we know, what is genuine, orthodox development, and what is heresy? How do we know that Athanasius was right and Arius was wrong? If this is indeed how God decided to act, he should be expected to provide some means of finding out. Who knows the depths and secrets of God if not the Spirit of God? And it is exactly the Spirit that Jesus promises would “guide you in all truth”. Now, this is spoken to the apostles - and it is also the apostles in general (and Peter in particular) who receive the power to bind and loose (see Matt. 16,16 and 18,18, also Isaiah 22 for background on keys). These offices are transferred to others, namely the bishops and the Pope. They are until today our safeguard from heresy.

3b) To extent the parable of the mustard seed even further, it may be said, that the Church did indeed grow and spread, but that some branches had to be cut off because they bore bad fruit… Wolves in sheep’s clothing appeared among the flocks; false prophets arose. But despite all this, the gates of Hell did not prevail. God not only provided the mustard seed and the means for it to grow, but also invested gardeners to cut off the branches of heterodoxy. Every dogmatic step forward, from the Council of Jerusalem where Peter defined for all to believe that gentiles were not to be circumcised, and to this day, has been ratified by the Magisterium. Rome has spoken, the case is closed.

3c) It should be noted that sticking with sola scriptura is not an option. The Biblical canon was not defined untill 367, and was not universally accepted until the sixth century.

1. In concluding, I would like to add, that looking at doctrine through merely scholarly eyes, is likely to miss the point. Doctrine is not there for splitting hairs, but to defend mystery. The scholarly writings of Aquinas on the eucharist can not be properly understood if not seen in the light of his beautiful poem Panis Angelicus.

My 2 cents (that used to be a dollar)

• CB

 

[JRKH]

Understood. The problem, it seems to me, is that it’s easy to justify what we want to believe. As I read the posts on this site I see a lot of people quoting scriptures to prove their claim. Just as a Mormon I have been shown and taught scriptures that were used to justify Mormon claims. I guess the real issue is trust. Trust in myself. I was duped once and I have to be honest I am really, really comfortable in my Mormon world and really, really don’t want to make changes that are going to be very difficult to deal with. Not just for me but for my wife and kids. I know what Mormons do to those who leave the church. They make it very difficult. I have already told my wife to expect that we will lose a lot of very good friends. So, having said that, I did study the doctrine once before and I followed what the missionaries taught me- study, ponder, and pray. I did just that and received what I took to be a confirmation of the Holy Spirit that the Book of Mormon is true.

You are truly in a difficult place and have our prayers.
As to quoting Scripture, you are absolutely right. Scripture can be pulled and twisted like taffy. This is whay Jesus did not leave us a “Book” but a Church with His Authority. That Church has a firmly and widely documented history from Pentacost to today. While it may not be a perfect, pristine, History, it does provide that critical second component to the Bible.

Knowing what I know now, I do not see how that is possible. So what was that “confirmation” or “burning in the bosom” that I felt 18 years ago? I did study the doctrine and I believed in the three kingdoms of glory, and eternal marriage, and the need to go to three hours of church and church callings, etc, etc, etc. Where did that get me?

Difficult to say. So much depends on your Catachesis before you became Mormon. Also it is important to understand that Faith and understanding involves so much more than a “Burning in the bosom” or other “warm fuzzy” emotional reaction.

That’s why I say that a study of the doctrine is almost secondary at this point. I understand your point and agree to a certain extent. But from my point of view I was given an undeniable sign, or “revelation” that the BoM was true and that Joseph Smith was a true profit. That came after a study of the doctrine. So I then believed in all of the doctrine of the LDS church, even the stuff that I may have thought was a little off the wall, especially the endowment ceremony. But since I felt that “burning”, if “that” part was true, then all of the rest had to be true- just as we’re taught.

Of course now you have been given an “undeniable sign” that LDS is wrong. This should place before you the realization that such “emotional reactions”, -signs - are not necessarily accurate or relaiable. I believe that, once you have a chance to really study on the Church History, and the Teachings of the Church you will realize what a full, rich and beautiful deposit of Faith it truly is.

So at this point, considering what my understanding is of the Catholic church, there are some things that are a little weird because of my Mormon background, but if through study and prayer I come to the conclusion that the Catholic church is the true church then I will accept all of it’s doctrine and teachings as true as well.

As stated earlier I understand the Catholic church’s claim of Apostolic succession and I am leaning in the direction of accepting that myself. But there are problems with Catholic history that I struggle with.

Can you specify the history you struggle with? We may be able to address them or point you to further reading.

There are other churches that claim Apostolic succession for one.

Check into these claims. Only two “Churches” can validly claim apostolic Succession. The Catholic Church and the Orthodox. Both can provide verifiable “geniology” from Christ’s time to now. Remember that the Lord Promised to be with His Church and the Gates of Hell would not prevail.

From the Mormon perspective, I believed that there was a Prophet to whom the Lord spoke for our benefit. Having that in mind I struggle with the changes to doctrine, or the “clarifying” of doctrine that has happened over time in the Catholic church. Were those “clarifications” made by men of their own feelings or thoughts or ideas, or were those men directed by the spirit? If they were made by men then they have the potential for being wrong. If they were made by men who were divinely inspired, then isn’t that revelation? And if I understand correctly doesn’t the Catholic church claim that revelation ended at the close of biblical times?

Not to be crude, but look at these simple examples. Men once believed the World was Flat and everything else in the sky moved across the plain of the earth. These were clearly verifiable phenomenon. However, we no longer believe these things because our ability to reason and investigate have improved. The Realities have not changed, that the earth is round and revolves around the sun, but the “doctrines” of how our place in the solar system has been “Clarified” by better understandings.

Maybe I’m confused on the history, so if I am someone please correct me.

Aren’t we all sometimes----:hypno:

I hope what I am saying makes sense. I have a lot of concerns and am bothered by a lot of things that I don’t have time to go into right now. But maybe as time goes on I can go into further detail and get more answers from people on this site that hopefully know much much more than I do.

Thank you.

We’ll do the best we can. In the meantime, keep praying and studying.

Peace
James

 

[BRB]

The problem began about a month ago when searching for something on Google I came across some Mormon church history. I studied, learned and became a little “too familiar” with the Church’s past. Needless to say, a reasonable person could no longer continue as a Mormon knowing the truth.

?

What info did you come across ?

I’m sure you are aware of early Mormon history … PBS has a 3-4 hr DVD documentary out on the church. It has aired twice in last year. You can also order it directly from PBS.

It’s a real eye-opener. Joseph Smith pulled a con, then started believing his own con … once people started treating him as royalty. Even Brigham Young was crushed, when he learned of Joseph’s sexual escapades.

 

[C2M2C]

1holycatholic- thanks for the suggestion, I am going to order this from Amazon.

BRB- I have in fact watched the PBS special on Mormons and frankly didn’t find it too damning. Maybe that’s because at the time I was under the belief that regardless of what the church history is I had prayed to receive the witness and had in fact done so. So just like other Mormons, as we are taught, my belief was this; I have read and prayed, I received an answer and nothing can change that. So if Joseph Smith was imperfect that didn’t change the fact that I received confirmation that this was the true church. Mormons often say “the people aren’t perfect but the church is”, which is usually used to calm someone who has been offended by the actions of another church member or even someone who might be investigating. Either way, ever since I received that witness, I have viewed discrepancies or strange doctrine through those glasses- If the church is true, then so is the doctrine and therefore actions of any church members from Joseph Smith on are irrelevant. Not to over simplify but I think you all will get my point.

JRKH-
What I struggle with, as I mentioned in my initial post are what seem to me to be clarifications of doctrine. I am a novice at Catholic church history so forgive me if I get it wrong or sound ignorant. But for example, the Council of Nicea is a concern along with the others that followed for that matter. The council as I understand it was to resolve conflicts of teachings including the nature of God among others. My concern is who directed these men? I stated this in my first post; were the conclusions or resolutions of these councils based on the thoughts, perceptions, feelings, or ideas of the men that were there, or were these men divinely inspired? If what was decided upon was of men, then those doctrines have the potential of being wrong. If the conclusions were divinely inspired then as a Mormon we call that revelation and my understanding is that Catholics believe that revelation ended at the close of biblical times.

CB- how do we know that doctrines develop? Are there scriptural references? The mustard seed parable is used often in Mormonism but not for the same reason you mention. This is of another concern to me as expressed in my comments above to JRKH. Who decides how the doctrine develops?
When you mention that there is “private revelation” do mean it in the way that Mormons teach it? Which is that if you pray with a sincere heart believing that the Lord will answer you , you will get answers. Those answers could come in the way of feelings, premonitions (although Mormons don’t call them that), thoughts. etc. They define that as “personal revelation”. Which I have to say regardless of where my search takes me, I have too many experiences where I have prayed for help with personal, business, or religious issues and have received answers. And when I followed those answers things worked out every time. And when I didn’t follow those answers it usually didn’t work out. So as Mormons say, “I have a testimony of the power of prayer” and frankly I cannot deny it. So when I hear that Catholics believe that revelations are no longer, I am left even more confused and here is why- I want to believe that the Catholic church is true because all of my family is Catholic and having been spiritually separated from them for 18 years, it’s been tough. I know that’s not necessarily a good reason to join a church or even return to a church, but for me it is what it is. Based on that, that is why I am here, searching. I first find out about Apostolic succession and some basic church history which is refreshing, considering I just found out that my current faith doesn’t really have a history- again not to over simplify, but you know what I mean. So based on history, and my previous experiences, things are starting to click, things are starting to make a little sense, and this seems like it’s the place where I am supposed to be.
But then I hear something such as the Revelation issue and I think to myself that this doesn’t make sense, I know it to be true because I’ve experienced it first hand. So this is the beginning of a conflict that I need to have reconciled. Maybe it’s because I have found out that what I have believed in for almost the last two decades is incorrect. Maybe it’s looking at things from a Mormon perspective. Maybe I’m jaded and guarded because I don’t want to be wrong again.

Rebbecca- Thank you. It’s getting late so I will get back to your posts in a day or two.

To the rest of you thanks to you as well.

 

[C2M2C]

JRKH- FYI, this is off the subject, but I noticed that you are from Cincinnati. I assume you are familiar with Lawrenceburg, Ind which is not too far from you. That’s where I grew up. St Lawrence is where I went to church & CCD.

 

[Douglas_Naaden]

C2M2C,
My prayers are with you.
To non-doctrinally resolve the issue of the True Church, you need to look at the 4 “Marks” of the Church Jesus founded; One, Holy, Catholic (universal) and Apostolic. Some other people mentioned these.

TV programs tend to gloss a lot of things over so they don’trock the boat, so to speak. Any serious history of Mormonism is pretty damning, but I’m sure you can find things online. Damning or not, Mormonism doesn’t pan out historically.

Christ promised the Spirit of Truth to the Apostles (John 14:16, 17) and also that the gates of Hell would not prevail against the Church (Matthew 16:18). It was to the Apostles that Christ untrusted His mission in a special way, and it is their successors who preserve it. The bottom line is that Jesus guarantees that Magisterial declarations (coming from the bishops in union with the pope or from the pope) on *faith *and morals are infallible, i.e. free from error. It doesn’t mean they are well written, said politely, in a timely fashion, etc., just that they are without error. Divine inspiration is different. It means that God actually meant exactly those words to be written in that way to convey His truth. The bishops and the pope do not claim divine inspiration. Public Revelation is a done deal; nothing can be added.

So for Councils the bishops and theologians do an incredible amount of legwork and debate, all of which is fallible, until the decrees are ratified by that council and the Bishop of Rome. The canon of the New Testament was decided upon by a council of bishops.

Doctrinal development is like a child growing into an adult. Same person, same features, but more developed. Something that has developed now can **never ** contradict what has been said before. Jesus revealed that God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit. So these days, we ask, what implications does that have? If we are created in the image and likeness of a triune being, Trinitarian teaching should have some bearing on who we are as persons, how we interrelate to others, etc., etc. Our unpacking of this teaching can never contradict the actual teaching and say something like, oh! there’s really 4 persons in God. Then it goes from doctrinal development to doctrinal contradiction.

Catholics don’t believe revelation is no more. Public revelation is no more; you cannot add anything substantial to what is revealed by Jesus. Private revelation is quite normal. People pray, God speaks. You just aren’t required to believe in people’s private revelations. If someone says, “God told me to cut down this tree,” it’s fine to believe or not believe that person as long as what they said doesn’t contradict public revelation. Public = meant for all to believe.

There is a criteria for discernment of whether or not an answer is from God, but this post has gotten far too lengthy already, and I need some shut-eye.

 

[JRKH]

JRKH-
What I struggle with, as I mentioned in my initial post are what seem to me to be clarifications of doctrine. I am a novice at Catholic church history so forgive me if I get it wrong or sound ignorant.

First of all let me say that you do not come across as “ignorant” but rather sincere and inquisitive. There are many here who will be able to help with specific concerns re: councils etc.

But for example, the Council of Nicea is a concern along with the others that followed for that matter. The council as I understand it was to resolve conflicts of teachings including the nature of God among others. My concern is who directed these men? I stated this in my first post; were the conclusions or resolutions of these councils based on the thoughts, perceptions, feelings, or ideas of the men that were there, or were these men divinely inspired?

As to who Guided the various Councils we believe, based on Christ’s own Promise, that the Holy Spirit Guided such councils.
Christ Promised to be with us to the “End of the Age” (Matthew 28: 20).
He promised to Protect His Church (Matthew 16: 18)
He Gave His Church Authority (Matthew 16: 19)
He told us to submit to This Authority (Matthew 16: 15-18)

Thus when councils met, and various sides would plead their cases, it would be the prayerful deliberations of the Bishops that would lead them to make decisions in accordance with the desires and promises of Our Lord Jesus Christ.

If what was decided upon was of men, then those doctrines have the potential of being wrong. If the conclusions were divinely inspired then as a Mormon we call that revelation and my understanding is that Catholics believe that revelation ended at the close of biblical times.

The Church teaches that Direct Revelation ended with the Apostles, however that does not preclude deeper and better understandings of things already revealed. In addition one must recognize that, if a council is sifting various teachings, it is not seeking new revelation but simply determining which of several ideas accurately reflect Sacred Tradition and Scripture.

As to the “Human decision” element, this is a good and valid concern which our Dear Lord foresaw and provided for. He told His Church that:
“Whatever” they bound on earth would be bound in heaven and Whatever the loosed on Earth would be loosed in heaven.
Therefore so long as we, as faithful disciples, follow the ordinances of the Church we are, indeed following Christ.
A wonderful example of this is found in Matthew
When Jesus was teaching about the Jewish Law and the interpretations thereof, He sternly reprimanded the Jewish leadership and He did so publicly, but what did He tell the Faithful Jewish “laymen”? He told them:
“all that they tell you, do and observe” because “The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat”. (Matthew 23:2-3)
Thus we can see that, While Christ will hold the Church leadership to task for bad decisions, He will not hold the faithful as wrong for obeying The Authority of His Church.
I hope this helps some.

I am not a great historian myself, but you can rest assured that there are folks here who will be able to answer any concerns you might have.

JRKH- FYI, this is off the subject, but I noticed that you are from Cincinnati. I assume you are familiar with Lawrenceburg, Ind which is not too far from you. That’s where I grew up. St Lawrence is where I went to church & CCD.

Small world indeed. While I’m not real familiar with Lawrenceburg, I was born and raised in Sharonville just north of Cinci. We owned a farm for a while in Indiana, outside of Metamora.

 

[JTBT]

To be brief I was raised Catholic and when I was 18 living in Utah I was given a Book of Mormon. I was told to read it and pray about it as stated in John 1:5 and Moroni 10:4. I did, felt the “burning in the bosom” and now 18 years later I have been a Mormon ever since, married in the Temple, heavily involved in the youth program of my ward, four kids, the oldest of which I just baptized last month, and deeply entrenched in Utah Mormon culture, etc, etc, etc. If you live in Utah and are a Mormon or were, you know what I mean.

The problem began about a month ago when searching for something on Google I came across some Mormon church history. I studied, learned and became a little “too familiar” with the Church’s past. Needless to say, a reasonable person could no longer continue as a Mormon knowing the truth.

So here I am, wondering where do I go from here. A study of the doctrine of the Catholic church or any other church for that matter is secondary to me in a way because the primary concern is finding the true church, Christ’s church. Then the doctrine will matter. In other words, if the Mormons are right then their idea of Heaven is right, same with Catholics. I have a good “general” sense of Catholic teachings but if the church is not the true one, then the doctrine is irrelevant.

So how do I know? How do I find out? I understand Apostolic succession and to a certain extent I think I believe it. The history makes sense and adds up but my problem is that as a Mormon I was told to “study it out” come up with what I felt to be the right answer and then ask God for a confirmation. So what do Catholics do?
How do you pray for an understanding of these things? How do you get answers? Do you get answers? How do they come? Feelings, promptings, thoughts, signs?

As a Mormon I felt like I had answers to almost everything and if I didn’t i need do nothing more than pray about it. I now no longer trust what I feel.

To a certain extent, scriptural backing is almost irrelevant too. Why? Because almost everyone can find or quote scriptures that back or “prove” their belief. Catholics can and so can Mormons and Born Agains.

I am distraught, sad, mad, confused and I need help. Prayers, thoughts, suggestions? Any or all would be helpful.

Regards

C2M2C?

you seem to be really wanting to follow Jesus. I pray that God will bless you and guide you.
May I suggest that you inquire into the Orthodox Church. here is a link to some Parishes in your area,
goarch.org/en/parishes/ParishSearch.asp?parish=&clergy=&city=&state=51&diocese=&SearchRadius=15&SearchZip=&searchResults=10&btnSubmit.x=42&btnSubmit.y=14
if you call them they will meet with you. Personally I think the Orthodox Church unity in divisity speaks to the truthfulness of this Church.
here is another link that I have found helpful ancientfaith.com/
God Bless

 

[RebeccaJ]

you seem to be really wanting to follow Jesus. I pray that God will bless you and guide you.
May I suggest that you inquire into the Orthodox Church. here is a link to some Parishes in your area,
goarch.org/en/parishes/ParishSearch.asp?parish=&clergy=&city=&state=51&diocese=&SearchRadius=15&SearchZip=&searchResults=10&btnSubmit.x=42&btnSubmit.y=14
if you call them they will meet with you. Personally I think the Orthodox Church unity in divisity speaks to the truthfulness of this Church.
here is another link that I have found helpful ancientfaith.com/
God Bless

I am glad you posted. Many Mormons are not familiar with Christian history, at all. I don’t know if that is the case with C2M2C, as he was once Roman Catholic…but many Mormons do not know there is more than one rite, let alone a schism.

Someone who is searching should understand the Church as a whole.

 

[po18guy]

C2M2C?,

Excellent suggestions so far. If you want to know the true church, and are already Catholic (which you never stopped being, by the way), you have the perfect chance to discover the truth, once and for all.

If you are reading, a couple of publications come to mind. They will serve you the rest of your life.

Catholicism for Dummies

amazon.com/Catholicism-Dummies-John-Trigilio/dp/0764553917/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1221077819&sr=8-1

The Essential Catholic Survival Guide

shop.catholic.com/cgi-local/SoftCart.exe/online-store/scstore/p-F0607A.html?L+scstore+dszc6900ff350735+1225154937

Also, you want to know the true path to Christ. You have the opportunity to go and ask for guidance in His presence. Go to your local parish and ask about when they offer Adoration of the Blessed Sacrament. This is Christ before you. Spend one hour in His presence, asking for the truth to be revealed to you. Expect a miracle. I have witnessed miracles before Him.

May Christ’s peace be with you on your journey home.

 

[Strategery]

C2M2C, prayer comes first. Ask God to guide you to where He wants you to be, and then trust Him.

Yes, I understand this. Again, prayer, and patience with yourself and God. He will answer your prayers.

Take it slow. God is there for you and if/when you come to this point, where you are certain, continue to trust God. While at the same time, use the same love and patience with your family. And take the time to prepare yourself to possibly lose friends, while understanding, you have much to gain.

When you come to this point, you will know, and the struggle you are feeling regarding this will lessen. But in the long run, don’t let fear prevent you from going where God leads you.

Absolutely. It helps to talk (or cyber-talk) things through with people, but the best place for an answer is always a dialogue with God, through prayer and the scriptures.

Specifically, ask God to reveal himself to you. Seek him out. Be persistent with this and see what happens.

 

[Rolltide]

C2M2C,
JRKH private messaged me and asked me to contribute to this thread. I might be able to help you out. In my normal life, I work as an Assistant Professor of History at a major private college in the South. If there are historical aspects of the church that you are struggling with, I may be able to help. I’m still getting caught up in the thread, and I might not be able to respond to your concerns about the Council of Nicea until the weekend, but I’ll be monitoring the discussion.