J
JRKH
Guest
Still doesn’t wash.
But I don’t expect to convince you, or you convince me.
However, for the sake of C2M2C, the oposing points are out there.
Peace
James
- Status
But I don’t expect to convince you, or you convince me.
However, for the sake of C2M2C, the oposing points are out there.
Peace
James
B
Believe_85
Guest
That’s why I bolded my words and left yours nonbolded. All anyone had to do was look at your original post to see that I didn’t change what you wrote…so I didn’t put words in your mouth.
C
C2M2C
Guest
Fair enough, but if there were millions of people that died in the final battle at the Hill Cumorah, then why is there no evidence of such a thing a happening? If everyone died and there wasn’t anyone to clean up the mess, which even if there was someone, there is no way they could have cleaned up “millions” of dead people (Ether Chapter 15) there should be irrefutable evidence of such an event occuring 1400 years ago.
I haven’t heard a valid argument on this yet. That’s just one of the things that concerns me.
This is another concern. This is speculation. With regards to the Bible we have irrefutable archealogical evidence of the places, and the events actually happening. I have only heard LDS apologists say “we think” or “it appears”, or “this could be” and things like that. I will have to dig it up but I saw a quote from an LDS archeologist that said (not a direct quote) “I fear that what is in the ground will never prove what is in the book”
And that’s what makes me skeptical of everything I read right now. You mentioned earlier that I should read the history of Nicea and then someone responded and said to make sure I read the Catholic version (again paraphrasing).
Well sure the Catholic version is going to point to the validity of Catholocism as I would expect the history of Nicea written from the perspective of someone who isn’t Catholic would most likely not shine the best light on the Catholic church.
Why would something like that (you know what I mean- pre 1990) be in the ceremony and then be taken out? That’s a very serious issue as far as I am concerned.
I agree. Let’s be honest, I have heard many Mormons say “if it’s not us it’s the Catholics” and I think that is a pretty fair, accurate assesment knowing what I know now. So I won’t use references to Born Agains or Methodists any more because I think it is either the C’s or the M’s. And yes there are some spotty, iffy things in the history of both. But my initial thought is that no archeological evidence or historical proof of the BoM makes me very skeptical.
As I mentioned earlier, I hear a lot of LDS apologists talking about what they think about the evidence but haven’t seen the proof. If I am wrong I really want to know. When the Smithsonian states that they have never seen or heard of any archeological proof, that concerns me.
1
1holycatholic
Guest
That’s why I recommended the Faith of the Early Fathers: Three-Volume Set. It isn’t a history book, it is a book of history - the actual source writings of the early Church. It contains an indexed, cross referenced overview of the patristic writings. For more detail you can order this.
P.S. Don’t listen to what non-Catholics say about the Catholic Church. Go straight to the source: vatican.va . A deacon, priest or bishop would also be a good resource.
P
Prodigal_Son1
Guest
Here is a video entitled The Bible vs. The Book of Mormon. It is an hour long but covers alot of ground on the subjects you’re addressing. There are a few ex-Mormon archaeologists and alot of neutral archaeologists. It’s worth watching.
R
RebeccaJ
Guest
P
Prodigal_Son1
Guest
The Holy Spirit led me to the Catholic Church!
Please provide a ‘source’ of a Catholic saying such a thing or it’s something you’re making up.
Here’s a Mormon missionary training video. Is this where you get the idea it’s ok to say whatever you want whether it’s true or not?
M
mfbukowski
Guest
So then you believe in private revelation and a testimony? Why are you always attacking me on these points then?The Holy Spirit led me to the Catholic Church!
Please provide a ‘source’ of a Catholic saying such a thing or it’s something you’re making up.
Here’s a Mormon missionary training video. Is this where you get the idea it’s ok to say whatever you want whether it’s true or not?
R
RebeccaJ
Guest
1 John 4:1
Beloved, do not trust every spirit but test the spirits to see whether they belong to God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
Beloved, do not trust every spirit but test the spirits to see whether they belong to God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
R
RebeccaJ
Guest
Galations 1:
6 I am amazed that you are so quickly forsaking the one who called you by (the) grace (of Christ) for a different gospel 7 (not that there is another). But there are some who are disturbing you and wish to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach (to you) a gospel other than the one that we preached to you, let that one be accursed! 9 As we have said before, and now I say again, if anyone preaches to you a gospel other than the one that you received, let that one be accursed!
6 I am amazed that you are so quickly forsaking the one who called you by (the) grace (of Christ) for a different gospel 7 (not that there is another). But there are some who are disturbing you and wish to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach (to you) a gospel other than the one that we preached to you, let that one be accursed! 9 As we have said before, and now I say again, if anyone preaches to you a gospel other than the one that you received, let that one be accursed!
R
RebeccaJ
Guest
For those reasons, we (Catholics) do not trust any old thing that calls itself the spirit of God. Feelings are included in this. They should be tested.
We use Faith and Reason, together. If a spirit, or an Angel, or a feeling, is in opposition to the teachings of Christ, then we conclude that it is a false spirit. Even an angel of darkness.
What we are testing when you say you have a “testimony”, is what gave you this testimony. Is it reasonable, as faith and reason are not opposed. And when you tell us, nothing matters except your testimony…and this testimony is of another “gospel”…well, we find your testimony to be as false as the spirit you derived it from.
We use Faith and Reason, together. If a spirit, or an Angel, or a feeling, is in opposition to the teachings of Christ, then we conclude that it is a false spirit. Even an angel of darkness.
What we are testing when you say you have a “testimony”, is what gave you this testimony. Is it reasonable, as faith and reason are not opposed. And when you tell us, nothing matters except your testimony…and this testimony is of another “gospel”…well, we find your testimony to be as false as the spirit you derived it from.
po18guy
Well-known member
Amen! Someone is quick on the judgment trigger. I wonder what the BOM says about that…
Funny, isn’t it, that the LDS allows “holy lies” and deception in the furtherance of their goals. Oy Weh! What chutzpah!
The peace of the eternal Christ be with you.
T
truthsilence
Guest
C2M2C
Hello and God bless you. I’m a Catholic convert from LDS also. Three years ago, my faith was spiraling. I could no longer stuff my doubts and concerns about LDS claims on a shelf. I prayed to God to protect my faith in Him and show me where to turn, and He led me home to the Catholic church.
The idea to investigate Catholicism didn’t come from myself. It came directly from Him. He was somehow able to speak the idea into my mind and heart, when Catholicism wasn’t anywhere visible on my radar. I’ve heard many testimonies since then, of the same type of thing happening for lots of people. God personally led them home too. So yes, I definitely believe in the Holy Spirit of God directly and personally influencing our lives. I don’t know of any believing Catholic who doesn’t.
A few thoughts I want to share with you:
One of the first things I experienced, at the very first mass I attended, was that the focus is entirely on Jesus Christ. And it is the same, at each and every mass. It is the closest I have ever felt to Him, in my life. It is what my soul longs for, Communion with Him. And now I understand, how can we possibly get any closer than receiving Him in the Eucharist?
When I began attending RCIA classes, I started learning about all the Saints throughout the centuries who loved Christ and lived their whole lives in service to Him and one another, many of them who died for their faith, their Testimony. I had known nothing about these faithful Christians because I had always been taught that His Church had been entirely removed from the earth. (Not only once, but apparently twice, if you believe the Book of Mormon story). But no, this isn’t true! His Church, His Authority, His beautiful Gospel of Love and Grace has survived, just as He promised, in a world full of imperfect people for over 2000 years.
With everyone who has advised you to not give up on prayer, this is my hope and my prayer for you also. Your journey and mine, as well as several others here, includes a time in Mormonism. God has given you the Grace to believe that His Son is your Savior. He has given you the Grace of this longing for Truth. And that, although painful at times, is a beautiful beautiful gift.
Peace be with you.
Hello and God bless you. I’m a Catholic convert from LDS also. Three years ago, my faith was spiraling. I could no longer stuff my doubts and concerns about LDS claims on a shelf. I prayed to God to protect my faith in Him and show me where to turn, and He led me home to the Catholic church.
The idea to investigate Catholicism didn’t come from myself. It came directly from Him. He was somehow able to speak the idea into my mind and heart, when Catholicism wasn’t anywhere visible on my radar. I’ve heard many testimonies since then, of the same type of thing happening for lots of people. God personally led them home too. So yes, I definitely believe in the Holy Spirit of God directly and personally influencing our lives. I don’t know of any believing Catholic who doesn’t.
A few thoughts I want to share with you:
One of the first things I experienced, at the very first mass I attended, was that the focus is entirely on Jesus Christ. And it is the same, at each and every mass. It is the closest I have ever felt to Him, in my life. It is what my soul longs for, Communion with Him. And now I understand, how can we possibly get any closer than receiving Him in the Eucharist?
When I began attending RCIA classes, I started learning about all the Saints throughout the centuries who loved Christ and lived their whole lives in service to Him and one another, many of them who died for their faith, their Testimony. I had known nothing about these faithful Christians because I had always been taught that His Church had been entirely removed from the earth. (Not only once, but apparently twice, if you believe the Book of Mormon story). But no, this isn’t true! His Church, His Authority, His beautiful Gospel of Love and Grace has survived, just as He promised, in a world full of imperfect people for over 2000 years.
With everyone who has advised you to not give up on prayer, this is my hope and my prayer for you also. Your journey and mine, as well as several others here, includes a time in Mormonism. God has given you the Grace to believe that His Son is your Savior. He has given you the Grace of this longing for Truth. And that, although painful at times, is a beautiful beautiful gift.
Peace be with you.
P
Prodigal_Son1
Guest
Just provide the source for your accusation that Catholics do not believe the Holy Spirit leads us. We believe in the Holy Spirit guided and protected Church that Christ created and promised to be with until the consummation of the world.
I am not attacking you, only trying to keep you honest in what you say. You seem to have a habit of throwing things like that out there with no proof other than your word, which comes seriously into doubt if you do not provide the source of what you have said.
Anytime you say things that are not true and we ask for your source you change the subject just as you’re attempting to do with your latest response. I have addressed several points to your attention in this thread for you to come back and say, I am only responding to the OP at this point. Just more avoidance on your part.
M
mfbukowski
Guest
I am not going to pretend to have all the answers, but I can say that I think I have a few. They have satisfied me, but I don’t know if they will satisfy you.
First, regarding BOM vs biblical archaeology, read this link. Maybe you have seen it, but it is fairly new and I think quite convincing:
fairlds.org/FAIR_Conferences/2005_Debating_the_Foundations_of_Mormonism.html
I am sure also a good portion of the BOM is allegorical, as is the bible. There is little historical evidence outside of the bible that Jesus even existed.
The fact that historical evidence can be contradictory I think supports my previous points that we need something else to rely on, and for me this is testimony.
As far as the pre-1990 temple ceremony, I think as I mentioned before, it is well to remember that the purpose of the endowment is to bring us closer to God. It is not magic words or incantations that must be recited in a specified manner to get the specified results. It is useful only insofar as it accomplishes the goal intended, which is getting us closer to God. The specificity comes not from magic words, but to allow us to be obedient to the admonition to “get it right” both in our lives and in the ordinances. For this reason, anything could be added or removed at the direction of the first presidency. What was removed, I guess, was judged as not bringing us closer to God. That is my explanation. It was a non-essential part of the ceremony.
In 1962 the Catholic mass also had some major external changes. You may not be old enough to remember, but I do, and it was definitely a “big deal” that still resounds through the Catholic church today. I was opposed to those changes at the time, but I suppose they were done for similar reasons. So certainly Catholicism is not imune either.
Does that help any?
M
mfbukowski
Guest
As usual, you are distorting and misquoting me. The post is there for all to see. – Post 58
What I said:
“Maybe others will jump on this and say I am wrong, but catholics to my knowledge do not believe that the holy ghost leads anyone anywhere. If they do, I think that they would be acknowleging that a “testimony” is a valid experience which they do not. I don’t see how they could believe that the Holy Ghost could testify of the truth of the catholic church without acknowledging the validity of ‘personal revelation’.”
I said “to my knowledge” catholics don’t believe in testimony. I certainly did not make an “accusation”. Do you believe in the personal revelation of a testimony? You still have not explained in what sense you do or do not.
R
Rolltide
Guest
All right, it’s time for me to chime in here. I’ve skimmed the article you’ve linked to, and as a professional Latin American historian, I can tell you that the archeological and historical errors are numerous and huge. It may also help that one of the most respected Mesoamerican archeologists in the world, the one who first discovered evidence for a written language among the Olmecs, works just two floors directly below my office. Let me just point out a few problems in the major points listed in the article:
- Metal Records in Stone Boxes
Which Old World civilizations preserved metal records in stone boxes? What does this have to do with the New World? The only metals that Native Americans could work were gold, silver, and a tiny bit of copper. They NEVER used these metals for record keeping, even in the Mayan civilization. - Ancient Writing
The article lists SIX Mesoamerican writing systems. The only one I’m aware of is ancient Mayan, although recent studies (led by my own school) suggest that the Olmecs may have had written language. Where are the leads that the author suggests? Archeologists have known for quite some time that the Mayan language goes back to 300 or 400 BC. This is old news. Further, almost all of it HAS been deciphered. - The Art of War
Mayan wars were hardly cataclysmic battles. They were almost always highly orchestrated affairs with almost no deaths. They were pre-arranged so that each side could gain captives to sacrifice. Further, if you’re going to use the Aztecs as an example, it’s important to point out that their civilization only began in 1325, and didn’t really even become huge until the 1400s, just a few years before the conquest. In fact, most of the details of their expansion were still within the LIVING MEMORY of the Aztecs in 1519! - Cities, Temples, Towers, and Palaces
Not having read the Book of Mormon, I can’t attest to this, but no examples are cited whatsoever. Where is the documentation? - Cement Houses and Cities
Ancient Americans NEVER invented cement. Some did invent a type of plaster using clay, vegetable fiber, and/or crushed seashells, but it was not very durable and only a few examples survive. Cement certainly did not exist in Teotihuacan. What plaster exists today is a reconstruction, as the original had badly deteriorated. - Kings and their Monuments
I have NEVER heard of a Mesoamerican city that was known for its stone thrones. Please provide a citation. - Metaphors and the Mesoamerican World
The image in question occurs right on page 2 of the codex. First, the person in the image is obviously a sacrificial victim, as his heart has already been removed. Second, in no way could the item spewing from his chest be construed as a tree. Third, we know this because we’ve translated the surrounding text! - Time Keeping and Prophesying
By extension, can we ascertain that Mesopotamian religion is correct because they used a base 12/60 system, and our current system of time is grouped into 60 seconds/minutes, 12 hours of night and day, and 12 months? (Although I concede that our system of time DOES derive from that source, it is entirely unrelated to their religious system.) - Old World Geography
I cannot comment on this section as I am unfamiliar with the Book of Mormon. - This section is highly speculative.
- Cycles of Civilization in Mesoamerica
This might sound good, but the information is out of date. The Olmecs and Maya DID coexist for a long period of time, as new research is pushing the dates for the Maya back to almost 1500 BC, making them contemporaries of the Olmecs. The Maya did not “replace” the Olmecs as much as they lived side-by-side and one died out. - Mesoamerican Demographic History
I would need a history of the Jaredites to compare, but the article seems to be implying things about Olmec city building that are simply not true.
J
JRKH
Guest
I am sorry that mfbukowski has not reponded to this question for I think that it is core. I was gratified to see other responses in support of this question.
Of course Catholics believe in the direct “revelation” and guidance of the Holy Spirit. Christ Promised such and Christ has delivered it so. However, as others have pointed out these things must be tested.
The Church provides THE MOST thorough method for testing. It takes into account the many avenues of revelation. It teaches us how to recognize true “Spirit revelation” from prideful “self revelation”. If a revelation comes in some “miraculous way” such as an apparition, the Church will investigate with a healthy dose of skepticism to ensure it is true. The Term “Devil’s advocate” is even a Church term for someone charged with this task of being a “skeptic”.
What this testing provides is an assurance that we are properly guided, not by evil, but by Truth.
Peace
James
1
1holycatholic
Guest
Your date is off by seven years. The Mass of Paul VI wasn’t promulgated until 1969. Are you sure you were there? :hypno:
F
fellowChristian
Guest
It is either Catholics or Mormons?
Well there either there was a Great Apostasy, or there wasn’t.
Mormons can never give me an exact date as to when this happened. You’d think something like that happening, millions leaving the Catholic Church,would have been recorded somewhere. Like with the Protestant Reformation.
And Scripture never says that “everyone” will leave. Only that some will leave their faith.
Either Christ’s authority came down through Peter through all the popes, as the Catholics believe, or it was lost and restored through the Mormon church.
Why then would Jesus promise that that the Gates of hell will not overcome His Church? Also that He would be with his Church until the end? Also that the Holy Spirit would teach the church in all things?
And if it the “keyes” were lost why would we have to wait until after 1830? Thats only 178 years ago. Wouldn’t that mean that Jesus lied? That’s not possible.
There are more questions with Mormonism then Catholicism. It seems to me that I can find the answers with Catholicism, I am always questioning my faith,then with Mormonism
Catholic Answers
catholic.com/library/Mormon_Stumpers.asp
Well there either there was a Great Apostasy, or there wasn’t.
Mormons can never give me an exact date as to when this happened. You’d think something like that happening, millions leaving the Catholic Church,would have been recorded somewhere. Like with the Protestant Reformation.
And Scripture never says that “everyone” will leave. Only that some will leave their faith.
Either Christ’s authority came down through Peter through all the popes, as the Catholics believe, or it was lost and restored through the Mormon church.
Why then would Jesus promise that that the Gates of hell will not overcome His Church? Also that He would be with his Church until the end? Also that the Holy Spirit would teach the church in all things?
And if it the “keyes” were lost why would we have to wait until after 1830? Thats only 178 years ago. Wouldn’t that mean that Jesus lied? That’s not possible.
There are more questions with Mormonism then Catholicism. It seems to me that I can find the answers with Catholicism, I am always questioning my faith,then with Mormonism
Catholic Answers
catholic.com/library/Mormon_Stumpers.asp
- Status