Catholic to Mormon to Catholic?

[JRKH]

Because I am lame at figuring out how to do multiple quotes, I will respond in a different color

Well I’m a little better so I’ll break things up a bit.

I am no expert, but even in the little I have read, these points are easily refutable.

Well let’s see how you’ve done.

Originally Posted by Prodigal Son1

I got the following information by taking notes from the video, “The Bible vs. the Book of Mormon.” So, I am open to corrections if anyone cares to watch the video and let me know. Besides ex-LDS anthropologists, there are many archaeologists and anthropologists that have nothing to gain one way or the other that offer facts as they see them.

So we have some anti Mormons and some “neutrals”. Gee, I wonder how neutral they are. Where are the pro-Mormons?

I’ll possibly agree about people who are ex-mormon, but Neutral means neutral. Just because a Scientist disagrees with you does not make him "Anti-Mormon. Your skepicism doesn’t change or nullify their conclusions either.

There were Caananites and Philistines evidence was found without exact locations being known. Capernaum, Bethsaida and Chorazin were destroyed and easily found and identified by the ruins.

So what?

Now there is a solid refutation.

Of the 30+ fortified cities named in the Book of Mormon, no evidence can be found.

PUH_LEESE. There are no ruins of cities found in the Americas?

PUH_LEESE is not a scientific argument. Do any of these ruins match up with the descriptions found in the Book of Mormon?

Biblical evidence of scriptures dating to the 7th century, BC have been found. The Dead Sea scrolls contain the Old Testament and are dated to between 200 and 100, BC. There is evidence from the New Testament dating back to a few years after they were written. That’s evidence from 2000 to close to 3000 years old.

So what?

Wow - Another brilliant refutation.

There is no evidence of any transcripts from the Book of Mormon. The events of the Book of Mormon ended, supposedly,around 400, AD. The first documentary trace was 1400 years later giving the appearance that the book itself was “constructed” in the 19th century.

There was only one “transcript”, the orignal. You wanna make a few more by etching a hundred or so metal plates? They didn’t exactly have Xerox machines you know

Why not? Every Jewish synagogue had a copy of the Jewish Law. Each of these was handcopied. Whether that copying was done on metal plates or on leather, paper, or clay tablets it does not matter. They didn’t have “Xerox” machines either.

Where is the history? Where are the documents? There has been an abundance of history traceable when it comes to the Bible.

See the link I posted before.

You’ll have to better than that since we have another history expert here who has refuted much of the so called evidence at that site, or at least called it into question.

Evidence of the Bible, like the Dead Sea scrolls is on display for people to see for themselves.

The Dead Sea Scrolls were parchment COPIES of other documents. There were no COPIES of the plates

Where are the plates the Book of Mormon came from? If they were true, wouldn’t they be on display for others to see?

This we have to accept on faith. If we had them, the entire world would be Mormon, and we would not have to accept anything on faith, so the purpose of the plan of salvation would be foiled. What if you could scientifically prove that God exists? Faith would not be necessary – no faith, no test. Asking for this is like me asking for genetic testing of a consecrated host to see if DNA could be found. There are just some things we have to accept on faith

Your saying that, if the Mormon Church showed the Tablets it would automatically convert the entire world? Well bring it on. Don’t you want the entire world to be saved?
This does not fly. We have faith in what is contained in the various written documents, not in the existance of the documents themselves. We have and use ancient copies of the texts of the Scriptures. This does not change the need for faith.
The Argument you put forth here simply doe not work.

Coins mentioned in the Bible have been found dating back to the first century.

No coins spoke of in the Book of Mormon have ever been found. Those coins would have been in use for almost a thousand years.

No coins were ever found in the Americas, and the BOM never mentions them. Duh.

Could we possibly avoid the use of the term “Duh”? It simply does not move the conversation forward.

Wars and battles recorded in the Bible, the Assyrian Empire dating 911–612 BC for example, not cities that might be easily found but battlefields, are evidenced by arrowheads and spearheads that have been found.

How about leather slings, wooden clubs and sharpened sticks? How many of those were found?

You’d be surprised. Depending on many factors, wood, leather and other “perishable” materails will last a long time. Even when they do rot away there is sometimes left an “impression”, or “residue” that is clearly identifiable.

The huge battle told of in the Book of Mormon between the Lamanites and Nephites between 400 and 421AD, nothing is found.

Where is the evidence of any large battles by Native Americans? They used perishable weapons made of leather and wood. Oh I guess the Native Americans just didn’t have any battles. What nice people they were!

See response above re: perishable weapons. Considering the relative 'newness" of the Battle above, I would strongly suspect that evidence of weapon and bone would be could be found.
Since the vast majority of Native American Tribes had no “written” language it is difficult to reliably pass on information such as battles.

A much smaller event in the first century AD, in Palestine, produced evidence of skeletal remains, coins and other artifacts. This event was written about by Josephus, a Roman general, who told of hundreds committing suicide rather than being taken captive. According to him, there were approximately 900 people that died.

So?

Well this is one “refutation” that I just cannot get around. I’m sure it will be most convincing to many people.

In the Book of Mormon, there were millions of Jaredites slain, including the women and children, yet no skeletal remains, no swords or any other evidence has ever been found. Centuries later the Lamanites destroyed the Nephite nation at the same hill, Cumora. Tens of thousands of people were slain according to the Book of Mormon. Again, no skeletal remains, bones, steel swords, shields, chariot parts, etc. were found. Why doesn’t the LDS allow an archaeological dig on the Cumora Hill? This would prove the Book of Mormon, or disprove it which could be quite embarassing.

Chariot parts? Again see above. Yeah sure, let’s dig up Mt. Moriah in Jerusalem under the dome of the rock. There’s probably lots of neat stuff there too, but those dang Jews and Muslims won’t allow it. I guess they are not interested in archaeology either.

Actually there have been digs under Mt Moriah and there are recent digs nearby. The simple fact is that the Jews and Muslims ARE interested in archaeology. The political situation in Jerusalem complicates matters.

(Cont)

 

[JRKH]

Herod’s built the wall, known as the wailing wall, about 2030 years ago. It was destroyed 50 years later by the Romans. The temple in Jerusalem was also destroyed in 70AD. There is evidence there to this day.

So?

Dang. I wish I knew how to “refute” this.

According to Nephi, another temple was built in the Americas similar to Solomon’s temple. Jews are not allowed to build temples anywhere except Mount Moriah. The next problem is the Book of Mormon identifies Lehi as a descendant of Joseph. Lehi appoints his two sons, according to the Book of Mormon, as priests of the new temple. According to the Old Testament, which I assume, Lehi would have lived by forbid any priests except Aaronic priests. Doesn’t the Book of Mormon claim to uphold the Old Testament law?

No it doesn’t. You ought to read it.

Cannot comment on this due to lack of relavent knowledge.

There is no evidence that the prophets that, supposedly wrote the Book of Mormon, existed. This is unlike the high priests and prophets from the Old Testament. Not only are they in the Bible, there are other evidences available showing these men existed.

We have already seen the middle east was totally different in technology etc. We don’t know if these evidences exist in different languages and in different names or not. Again there was only one copy of the BOM, passed from prophet to prophet.

The Lack of corroborating evidence, along with the refusal to display the tablets publicaly only serves to undermine the Mormon position. Even Catholics who rely heavily on the Church for teaching, don’t accept things “just cause someone says so” but rather checks against known facts and evidences.

There is much evidence of the existence of Jesus in the middle East. The Jews, Romans and other non-Christians wrote about Jesus, even though some writings are not favorable.

According to Mormons, Jesus came to the Americas and converted thousands to Christianity, yet again no evidence exists in any source other than Mormon sources, written by Mormons.

Ever hear of Quetzlcoatl and how Cortez was able to conquer Mexico? Obviously not.

Can you provide the evidences and sources that show that Quetzlcoatl was Christian?

I apologize for any snide snippets in the above, but when “Easily refutable arguments” are refuted with terms such as “Duh”, “PUL_EESE” and “So What” it is difficult to resist a snide retort.

Granted we are only a small group of individuals here who are exchanging information, and I am quite ignorant when it comes to the Morman faith. But if I had to make a choice based upon the arguments and evidences you have prestented here, it would be no contest. Your arguments would never convince me of the authenticity or authority of Mormonism or the BoM.

My primary hope is that the information supplied here by both sides will aid C2M2C in his journey.

Peace
James

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Originally Posted by Prodigal Son1
I got the following information by taking notes from the video, “The Bible vs. the Book of Mormon.” So, I am open to corrections if anyone cares to watch the video and let me know. Besides ex-LDS anthropologists, there are many archaeologists and anthropologists that have nothing to gain one way or the other that offer facts as they see them.

So we have some anti Mormons and some “neutrals”. Gee, I wonder how neutral they are. Where are the pro-Mormons?

But every LDS source, including zerinus’ blog is neutral? Seems you hold our sources to a higher standard. Did you even watch the video or did you make a presupposed opinion because it was posted by a non-Mormon?

There were Caananites and Philistines evidence was found without exact locations being known. Capernaum, Bethsaida and Chorazin were destroyed and easily found and identified by the ruins.

So what?

Of the 30+ fortified cities named in the Book of Mormon, no evidence can be found.

PUH_LEESE. There are no ruins of cities found in the Americas?

See the video and look at the Mormon maps, that don’t match anyplace in the world, and tell us where specifically those 30+ fortified cities were.

Biblical evidence of scriptures dating to the 7th century, BC have been found. The Dead Sea scrolls contain the Old Testament and are dated to between 200 and 100, BC. There is evidence from the New Testament dating back to a few years after they were written. That’s evidence from 2000 to close to 3000 years old.

So what?

You’re providing some rather sophisticated arguments so far.

*There is no evidence of any transcripts from the Book of Mormon. The events of the Book of Mormon ended, supposedly,around 400, AD. The first documentary trace was 1400 years later giving the appearance that the book itself was “constructed” in the 19th century. *

There was only one “transcript”, the orignal. You wanna make a few more by etching a hundred or so metal plates? They didn’t exactly have Xerox machines you know

Where is the history? Where are the documents? There has been an abundance of history traceable when it comes to the Bible.

See the link I posted before.

**That neutral source you provided? **

*Evidence of the Bible, like the Dead Sea scrolls is on display for people to see for themselves. *

The Dead Sea Scrolls were parchment COPIES of other documents. There were no COPIES of the plates

Where are the plates the Book of Mormon came from? If they were true, wouldn’t they be on display for others to see?

This we have to accept on faith. If we had them, the entire world would be Mormon, and we would not have to accept anything on faith, so the purpose of the plan of salvation would be foiled. What if you could scientifically prove that God exists? Faith would not be necessary – no faith, no test. Asking for this is like me asking for genetic testing of a consecrated host to see if DNA could be found. There are just some things we have to accept on faith

If you had them, they would be on display to prove Mormonism. But if they could not stand up to ‘testing’, review and analysis, they would have never been provided. Christianity has evidences back to the time of Christ and before.

*Coins mentioned in the Bible have been found dating back to the first century. *

No coins spoke of in the Book of Mormon have ever been found. Those coins would have been in use for almost a thousand years.

No coins were ever found in the Americas, and the BOM never mentions them. Duh.

More sophisticated answers? Again, watch the video then come back with your “so whats” and “duhs”. If you can’t keep up, I am willing to go back and get the exact Mormon passages?

*Wars and battles recorded in the Bible, the Assyrian Empire dating 911–612 BC for example, not cities that might be easily found but battlefields, are evidenced by arrowheads and spearheads that have been found. *

How about leather slings, wooden clubs and sharpened sticks? How many of those were found?

Actually, you can find evidence of arrowheads and spearheads, even though they were made of flint.

The huge battle told of in the Book of Mormon between the Lamanites and Nephites between 400 and 421AD, nothing is found.

Where is the evidence of any large battles by Native Americans? They used perishable weapons made of leather and wood. Oh I guess the Native Americans just didn’t have any battles. What nice people they were!

Your logic is astounding! The people Mormons spoke of used steel weapons, chariots etc. Yet nothing can be found?

A much smaller event in the first century AD, in Palestine, produced evidence of skeletal remains, coins and other artifacts. This event was written about by Josephus, a Roman general, who told of hundreds committing suicide rather than being taken captive. According to him, there were approximately 900 people that died.

So?

The even Josephus wrote about was not at an identified location. Scolars researched the ancient writings and found the site, along with skeletal remains, coins and other artifacts. You’ve should have read this whole thread together before providing your snap answers, it all ties together.

In the Book of Mormon, there were millions of Jaredites slain, including the women and children, yet no skeletal remains, no swords or any other evidence has ever been found. Centuries later the Lamanites destroyed the Nephite nation at the same hill, Cumora. Tens of thousands of people were slain according to the Book of Mormon. Again, no skeletal remains, bones, steel swords, shields, chariot parts, etc. were found. Why doesn’t the LDS allow an archaeological dig on the Cumora Hill? This would prove the Book of Mormon, or disprove it which could be quite embarassing.

Chariot parts? Again see above. Yeah sure, let’s dig up Mt. Moriah in Jerusalem under the dome of the rock. There’s probably lots of neat stuff there too, but those dang Jews and Muslims won’t allow it. I guess they are not interested in archaeology either.

You see above. A site where 900 died was found, yet a site where millions died cannot be confirmed.

Herod’s built the wall, known as the wailing wall, about 2030 years ago. It was destroyed 50 years later by the Romans. The temple in Jerusalem was also destroyed in 70AD. There is evidence there to this day.

So?

So, Christianity and others history through time can be located and confirmed. Nothing wrote about from Mormons can be found.

According to Nephi, another temple was built in the Americas similar to Solomon’s temple. Jews are not allowed to build temples anywhere except Mount Moriah. The next problem is the Book of Mormon identifies Lehi as a descendant of Joseph. Lehi appoints his two sons, according to the Book of Mormon, as priests of the new temple. According to the Old Testament, which I assume, Lehi would have lived by forbid any priests except Aaronic priests. Doesn’t the Book of Mormon claim to uphold the Old Testament law?

No it doesn’t. You ought to read it.

I feel like I’m arguing with a 3rd grader. Maybe you should go back and re-read it. Your the only Mormon to make this claim so far.

There is no evidence that the prophets that, supposedly wrote the Book of Mormon, existed. This is unlike the high priests and prophets from the Old Testament. Not only are they in the Bible, there are other evidences available showing these men existed.

We have already seen the middle east was totally different in technology etc. We don’t know if these evidences exist in different languages and in different names or not. Again there was only one copy of the BOM, passed from prophet to prophet.

There is much evidence of the existence of Jesus in the middle East. The Jews, Romans and other non-Christians wrote about Jesus, even though some writings are not favorable.

According to Mormons, Jesus came to the Americas and converted thousands to Christianity, yet again no evidence exists in any source other than Mormon sources, written by Mormons.

Ever hear of Quetzlcoatl and how Cortez was able to conquer Mexico? Obviously not.

**Why yes I have. Did they find some evidence of Christ in the Americas that your not sharing with us?

No comment on President Hinkley’s statement?**

They say we do not believe in the traditional Christ of Christianity. There is some substance to what they say.

**I really do see how anything you’ve said added validity to your argument. Also, please read my very first paragraph, I was open to corrections from those who actually watched the video. **

 

[savedsinner]

Where is the evidence of any large battles by Native Americans? They used perishable weapons made of leather and wood. Oh I guess the Native Americans just didn’t have any battles. What nice people they were!
.

Only the shafts of the weapons would have been made of wood or leather, the points would have made of stone, and would easily be found on an ancient battlefield.

 

[C2M2C]

I’m not chiming in, but still here, taking it all in…

 

[savedsinner]

I am curious.
I tried to Google it, but I didn’t find any results that looked promising.

Are there any native American tales which were passed down that would reflect the huge battle told of in the Book of Mormon between the Lamanites and Nephites between 400 and 421AD.
And if so, could you please post the link.
I would be looking for a native American Indian history site, not a Mormon site.

There is a great deal on history both human and geological which has been passed on by the oral storytelling of the native American Indians.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

I am curious.
I tried to Google it, but I didn’t find any results that looked promising.

Are there any native American tales which were passed down that would reflect the huge battle told of in the Book of Mormon between the Lamanites and Nephites between 400 and 421AD.
And if so, could you please post the link.
I would be looking for a native American Indian history site, not a Mormon site.

There is a great deal on history both human and geological which has been passed on by the oral storytelling of the native American Indians.

As far as I know, Joseph Smith was the first to call native Americans, Lamanites. He instructed fellow Mormons to go and teach his gospel to them, about his Church, speaking as God.

Doctrines and Covenants 28.8
8 And now, behold, I say unto you that you shall go unto the Lamanites and preach my gospel unto them; and inasmuch as they receive thy teachings thou shalt cause my church to be established among them; and thou shalt have revelations, but write them not by way of commandment.

This was affirmed again when in Doctrines and Covenants 32, where Joseph Smith spoke as God again:

1 And now concerning my servant Parley P. Pratt, behold, I say unto him that as I live I will that he shall declare my gospel and learn of me, and be meek and lowly of heart.
2 And that which I have appointed unto him is that he shall ago with my servants, Oliver Cowdery and Peter Whitmer, Jun., into the wilderness among the Lamanites.
3 And Ziba Peterson also shall go with them; and I myself will go with them and be in their midst; and I am their advocate with the Father, and nothing shall dprevail against them.
4 And they shall give heed to that which is written, and pretend to no other revelation; and they shall pray always that I may unfold the same to their understanding.
5 And they shall give heed unto these words and trifle not, and I will bless them. Amen.

I found an article from 2002, while trying the same type search as you mentioned.

Native Americans, DNA and the Mormon Church

In “Losing a Lost Tribe: Native Americans, DNA, and the Mormon Church,” research scientist Simon Southerton of Canberra, Australia, states that American Indians and Polynesians appear to be of Asian extraction, noting that none of the nearly 7,500 DNA-tested Native Americans shows any link to ancient Israel. This conclusion has also been reached by many other scientists studying mitochondrial DNA lines.

The debate, which has been raging for years, is less about the ancestral origins of Native Americans, and more about how it affects basic beliefs of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as expressed in the Book of Mormon. Simon Southerton, a former member of the LDS church, feels that church leaders should just own up to the problems with some of the literal teachings in the Book of Mormon, given the current results of DNA research. "They should come out and say, ‘There’s no evidence to support your Israelite ancestry,’ " Southerton said in an article in USA Today. “I don’t have any problem with anyone believing what’s in the Book of Mormon. Just don’t make it look like science is backing it all up.”

 

[PaulDupre]

Only the shafts of the weapons would have been made of wood or leather, the points would have made of stone, and would easily be found on an ancient battlefield.

Actually, the BoM reports that the Jaredites and the Nephites used tools and weapons made of iron, brass, copper and steel.

1 Ne. 4: 9
9 And I beheld his sword, and I drew it forth from the sheath thereof; and the hilt thereof was of pure gold, and the workmanship thereof was exceedingly fine, and I saw that the blade thereof was of the most precious steel.

1 Ne. 16: 18
18 And it came to pass that as I, Nephi, went forth to slay food, behold, I did break my bow, which was made of fine steel; and after I did break my bow, behold, my brethren were angry with me because of the loss of my bow, for we did obtain no food.

2 Ne. 5: 15
15 And I did teach my people to build buildings, and to work in all manner of wood, and of iron, and of copper, and of brass, and of steel, and of gold, and of silver, and of precious ores, which were in great abundance.

Jarom 1: 8
8 And we multiplied exceedingly, and spread upon the face of the land, and became exceedingly rich in gold, and in silver, and in precious things, and in fine workmanship of wood, in buildings, and in machinery, and also in iron and copper, and brass and steel, making all manner of tools of every kind to till the ground, and weapons of war—yea, the sharp pointed arrow, and the quiver, and the dart, and the javelin, and all preparations for war.

Ether 7: 9
9 Wherefore, he came to the hill Ephraim, and he did molten out of the hill, and made swords out of steel for those whom he had drawn away with him; and after he had armed them with swords he returned to the city Nehor, and gave battle unto his brother Corihor, by which means he obtained the kingdom and restored it unto his father Kib.

Weapons and tools made of steel (or iron or brass or copper) would be very durable and would have been found by now if they had ever existed.

 

[RebeccaJ]

When you covenant “til death do you part” that is precisely what you get. You must take on the right covenant in the right place with the proper priesthood. God honors covenants.

Indeed, He does. The New and Everlasting Covenant is NOT some 19th century invention that surrounded the desires of a man to practice adultery under the guise of “God commanded polygamy”.

The New and Everlasting Covenant is Jesus Christ. God, who became Man in order to save the world. Christ, Jesus, God’s Perfect Word. His Blood is the seal. His Resurrection the promise, made to all.

There is no greater Revelation than this, and no revelation was needed 1800 years later to promise something that was already promised and sealed, by Christ Himself.

Jesus gave to Peter, the keys of His Kingdom. And to the Apostles He made them a promise, that they would not be left as orphans. He sent the Holy Spirit, to guide them. He made another promise, that the Church He built on Peter, the foundation, would survive.

All that Christ gave to the world has not perished. The “great apostasy” is a lie. And that you discount the physical proof of Christ’s promise as “mere history”, says more about the desire and origins of this lie than anything else you have to say.

 

[1holycatholic]

Actually, the BoM reports that the Jaredites and the Nephites used tools and weapons made of iron, brass, copper and steel.

Weapons and tools made of steel (or iron or brass or copper) would be very durable and would have been found by now if they had ever existed.

:ehh: Iron and steel production was unknown in the ancient Americas.

 

[JRKH]

Originally Posted by mfbukowski
When you covenant “til death do you part” that is precisely what you get. You must take on the right covenant in the right place with the proper priesthood. God honors covenants.

Rebecca you have nailed it here!!

Thanks for a great Post.:clapping: :clapping: :yup:

James

 

[mfbukowski]

Hmmm… you sound like a Sophist, or at least a follower of Protagoras. The Sophists of ancient Greece believed that there was no absolute truth or certainty. The most famous quote of Protagoras was “Man is the measure of all things”. In other words, there is no definitive truth, or definitive right or wrong. It all depends on our point of view. The great Greek philosopher Socrates spent most of his life attacking the Sophists, because he did indeed believe in absolute truth. He believed that without absolute truth, society would fall apart, because there would be no way to enforce law of any kind. He also despised the democracy of his own Athens, as he felt it was the chaotic rule of amateurs. How better would it have been to be ruled by professional, educated scholars, an idea picked up by his student Plato in The Republic, when he suggests the idea of “philosopher-kings”.

Plato goes on to illustrate his ideas in the famous “Allegory of the Cave”, where he suggests that the judgment of people can be clouded by pure faith or superstition without the benefit of facts. Imagine that people live in a cave, facing away from the entrance. Behind us is both the entrance, with light shining in, and a fire. All we see of the real world are the shadows on the wall. Some of them are real reflections from outside, giving us a glimpse of the truth, and some of them are deceiving, caused by the fire. Only by educating ourselves do we turn around and get closer to the entrance of the cave and see reality. We will never get to the entrance, because we are not God and can’t know everything, but we can use this knowledge to confirm our faith and discern that which is false.

By the way, it is through Plato’s invention of the “dialogue” that future Christian philosophers, such as St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas, were able to present their ideas.

http://www.meditationsight.com/Documents/Cave_files/image001.jpg

This is exactly what I stated above. The facts are absolutely certain. We know that Columbus made it to America in October of 1492. We know that Vikings made it to America around 1000 AD, and we know that Native Americans made it to America at least 14,000 years ago (and archeologist readily admit that they do not know how much earlier before 14,000 years ago they arrived.) Interpretation is NOT fact, and I never claimed that it was.

Not at all. A good historian presents all the points of view and lets the facts speak for themselves. They do provide an interpretation, but the evidence leads readers to decide whether that interpretation has any merit. When I talk about the discovery of America, I do put it into the context of the Native American, the Vikings, and Columbus. I also present opposing theories, and the latest research into other possible encounters that may have occurred.

Not exactly. The new classification does not change the fact that a man by the name of Lowell discovered Pluto early in the twentieth century, and that it’s a little over 1000 km across. What has changed is our discovery of many other similar sized bodies to Pluto, and that Pluto, like these other bodies, is primarily made out of ice. Because of these new discoveries, our language must now be more precise, but none of the original facts have changed.

I agree that good knowledge of the Book of Mormon would be helpful and relevant to an apologetics discussion.

Several other small planets were discovered in our solar system approximately the same size and composition of Pluto. They include Sedna, Quaoar, Eris, and Makemake. A number of others have yet to be named. These bodies also tend to have highly irregular orbits. Although many argued that they should be still considered planets because unlike asteroids, they are large and spherical, others argued that they are significantly different enough to form a sub-category. That said, there’s nothing really incorrect about calling Pluto a planet. It still fits the definition.

Well yes, but you’re not talking about facts now, you’re talking about the analysis of facts.

This is a nice summary of the Republic which was written 2300 years ago.

It appears that this is the only philosophical work you have read, except also the Protagoras, who was a character Plato argued against.

The philosophy of History has advanced somewhat in the last 2300 years. I think you make my point.

 

[mfbukowski]

:ehh: Iron and steel production was unknown in the ancient Americas.

Precisely my point. Those quotes in 1 Nephi about steel weapons were IMPORTED with the immigrants when they came over. Those were middle eastern weapons which came with them on the boat.

This is the entire point of my earlier post in the hideous green text. The “duhs” and the “so what’s” refer to the fact that BIBLICAL ARTIFACTS THAT HAVE BEEN FOUND ARE NOT RELEVANT to what happened in this hemisphere. Duh.

There were NO COINS in the americas, no steel artifacts to be found.

The use of steel by the Jaredites would have been VERY long ago if they ever occurred. Steel does rust you know, and what they regarded as steel was not exactly high carbon stainless steel like we have today. That would also have been in a very limited area geographically. So if these implements still exist, they still would be extremely hard to find due to their use in such a limited area. There have just not been enough excavations done.

There are even other interpretations of what the Jardedites wrote, which I will link to in a following post. No time to look it up now.

It is also ironic that one of the complaints is that the Church will not allow excavation around the hill of Cumorah, and then the complaint is made that there are no artifacts from the great battle.

You can’t have it both ways! IF THE EXCAVATIONS HAVE NOT BEEN MADE, OF COURSE THERE ARE NO ARTIFACTS.

I guess I will just have to yell more. Speaking softly and logically apparantly does not get heard around here.

Again, I am only answering arguments that might be relevant to C2M2C and ignoring the others because with his Mormon background he will understand the Mormon context where others will not, and I don’t want to waste time responding to those with no understanding of the church whatsoever.

 

[mfbukowski]

OK here are the links.

I don’t pretend to be an expert on history or archaeology so I will let those who have researched this more than I have to respond.

en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon_and_DNA_evidence:Summary

en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon_anachronisms:Coins

fairlds.org/Book_of_Mormon/Steel_in_the_Book_of_Mormon.html

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Precisely my point. Those quotes in 1 Nephi about steel weapons were IMPORTED with the immigrants when they came over. Those were middle eastern weapons which came with them on the boat.

This is the entire point of my earlier post in the hideous green text. The “duhs” and the “so what’s” refer to the fact that BIBLICAL ARTIFACTS THAT HAVE BEEN FOUND ARE NOT RELEVANT to what happened in this hemisphere. Duh.

There were NO COINS in the americas, no steel artifacts to be found.

The use of steel by the Jaredites would have been VERY long ago if they ever occurred. Steel does rust you know, and what they regarded as steel was not exactly high carbon stainless steel like we have today. That would also have been in a very limited area geographically. So if these implements still exist, they still would be extremely hard to find due to their use in such a limited area. There have just not been enough excavations done.

There are even other interpretations of what the Jardedites wrote, which I will link to in a following post. No time to look it up now.

It is also ironic that one of the complaints is that the Church will not allow excavation around the hill of Cumorah, and then the complaint is made that there are no artifacts from the great battle.

You can’t have it both ways! IF THE EXCAVATIONS HAVE NOT BEEN MADE, OF COURSE THERE ARE NO ARTIFACTS.

I guess I will just have to yell more. Speaking softly and logically apparantly does not get heard around here.

Again, I am only answering arguments that might be relevant to C2M2C and ignoring the others because with his Mormon background he will understand the Mormon context where others will not, and I don’t want to waste time responding to those with no understanding of the church whatsoever.

Yelling does not add validity to your statements.

Only responding to C2M2C and ignoring everyone else does not add validity to your statements.

We have provided traceable proof for Christianity and times prior to Christianity. You have provided personal ‘beliefs’, ‘so whats’, ‘duhs’, ‘sos’ and ‘no artifacts because there were no excavations’ as your ‘proof’ of truth.

As much as Mormons ‘evangelize’ Mormonism, it only stands to reason if there was proof, Mormons would do everything in their power to prove it. Not excavating seems to be a ‘dodge’ tactic, maybe a better choice of words would be ‘afraid you might not find something’, which in itself shows doubts within your own Church.

Did you even watch the video I provided? If not, how can you refute the many points raised?

C2M2C,

Watch the video, The Bible vs. The Book of Mormon, and please let me know what you think of the evidence and those who present it. Please note some of those who offered their testimony were not Mormons and they were not Christians. You’ll see what I mean when you view it. I did the best I could taking notes, but my notes do not do justice to the whole video and the message given.

Continue praying and researching for truth and know there’s a lot of us praying for you.

 

[po18guy]

Precisely my point. Those quotes in 1 Nephi about steel weapons were IMPORTED with the immigrants when they came over. Those were middle eastern weapons which came with them on the boat.

They would have needed many large ships to carry the armament to equip an army of millions. This would require charts, ports and infrastructure.
No remnant of such has ever been seen.

This also assumes that these literate people kept no written records, spoke to no one about their numerous journeys, and those who saw those numerous journeys all kept quiet. It asks you to believe that this epic, never before or since occurrence happened under the cover of darkness and/or in total silence and secrecy. This is incomprehensible.

The Lord always provides reasons for faith. This is unreasonable.

 

[mfbukowski]

“Who discovered America” is an ambiguous question - of course it must be made more precise before one can give a satisfactory answer.

• CB

Precisely. Any statement about religion is also extremely ambiguous, or there would be no need for these forums to discuss these matters. Just saying that “Columbus discovered America in 1492” leaves so much open that it is almost a meaningless statement on its own. “The Catholic Church is true”. is another such statement, (or any other truth claim about any other religion) We need to look at what these things mean in detail.

 

[mfbukowski]

They would have needed many large ships to carry the armament to equip an army of millions. This would require charts, ports and infrastructure.
No remnant of such has ever been seen.

This also assumes that these literate people kept no written records, spoke to no one about their numerous journeys, and those who saw those numerous journeys all kept quiet. It asks you to believe that this epic, never before or since occurrence happened under the cover of darkness and/or in total silence and secrecy. This is incomprehensible.

The Lord always provides reasons for faith. This is unreasonable.

You are not getting this at all. There was one boat, two or three steel implements. The mention of steel implements refers to these.

 

[Rolltide]

This is a nice summary of the Republic which was written 2300 years ago.

It appears that this is the only philosophical work you have read, except also the Protagoras, who was a character Plato argued against.

The philosophy of History has advanced somewhat in the last 2300 years. I think you make my point.

Really? If you like, we could talk about the other 2300 years of philosophy. Now granted, I’m not trying to say that people need to be Positivists, like Augusto Comte of France, where science supplants faith completely (as evidenced by the motto "Order and Progress, which you can even find on the Brazilian flag), nor do I think that you are advocating a type of Nietzschian nihilism, where nothing can be known for certain. That said, I think it’s unfair to reject some of the most influential philosophers ever just because they’re 2300 years old. I was trying to open up the conversation at an elementary philosophical level, but since you know your ancient Greeks, we can move to something more contemporary if you wish.

What did you have in mind to discuss? St. Augustine? St. Thomas Aquinas? Utopia? The Enlightenment? Existentialism? Before you accuse me of not knowing philosophy, you should know that I have a background in that subject too, that I teach philosophy in all of my history classes, and that I have published on the subject.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Precisely my point. Those quotes in 1 Nephi about steel weapons were IMPORTED with the immigrants when they came over. Those were middle eastern weapons which came with them on the boat.

The use of steel by the Jaredites would have been VERY long ago if they ever occurred. Steel does rust you know, and what they regarded as steel was not exactly high carbon stainless steel like we have today. That would also have been in a very limited area geographically. So if these implements still exist, they still would be extremely hard to find due to their use in such a limited area. There have just not been enough excavations done.

So the only metals were the ones they brought with them?

NOT according to the Book of Mormon…

1 Nephi 18.25

25 And it came to pass that we did find upon the land of promise, as we journeyed in the wilderness, that there were beasts in the forests of every kind, both the cow and the ox, and the *** and the horse, and the goat and the wild goat, and all manner of wild animals, which were for the use of men. And we did find all manner of ore, both of gold, and of silver, and of copper.

1 Nephi 19.1

1 And it came to pass that the Lord commanded me, wherefore I did make plates of ore that I might engraven upon them the record of my people. And upon the plates which I made I did engraven the record of my father, and also our journeyings in the wilderness, and the prophecies of my father; and also many of mine own prophecies have I engraven upon them.

Now if the Nephites were a culture of writing, wouldn’t there be writings available as there is for the Old and New Testament, which are much older?

Helaman 3.15

15 But behold, there are many books and many records of every kind, and they have been kept chiefly by the Nephites.

Records from a culture that kept records, for approximately 1000 years, do not totally disappear. Every single book of the Old Testament, with the exception of Esther, is found in the Dead Sea scrolls which date back to 200 to 100BC. Where is the ancient manuscript for the Book of Mormon?

No coins you say? NOT according to the book of Mormon.

Alma 11 the heading

Nephite coinage set forth—Amulek contends with Zeezrom—Christ will not save people in their sins—Only those who inherit the kingdom of heaven are saved—All men shall rise in immortality—There is no death after the resurrection. About 82 B.C.

Alma 11.5-19

5 Now the reckoning is thus—a senine of gold, a seon of gold, a shum of gold, and a limnah of gold.
6 A senum of silver, an amnor of silver, an ezrom of silver, and an onti of silver.
7 A senum of silver was equal to a senine of gold, and either for a measure of barley, and also for a measure of every kind of grain.
8 Now the amount of a seon of gold was twice the value of a senine.
9 And a shum of gold was twice the value of a seon.
10 And a limnah of gold was the value of them all.
11 And an amnor of silver was as great as two senums.
12 And an ezrom of silver was as great as four senums.
13 And an onti was as great as them all.
14 Now this is the value of the lesser numbers of their reckoning—
15 A shiblon is half of a senum; therefore, a shiblon for half a measure of barley.
16 And a shiblum is a half of a shiblon.
17 And a leah is the half of a shiblum.
18 Now this is their number, according to their reckoning.
19 Now an antion of gold is equal to three shiblons.

I’m not going to post the whole chapter 11 of Alma, but invite anyone to go read it for themselves.

Keep in mind, coins from the time of Christ have been found and are still found to this day.