Catholic to Mormon to Catholic?

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mfbukowski,

Look at the Dead Sea scrolls, they are not steel yet, they exist from a much older period of time than the Nephites.

Steel is not as big an issue as you attempt to make it out to be. The event the Roman general, Josephus, wrote about where 900 died to avoid capture by the Romans, was evidenced by many artifacts including bones.

You dispute the Book of Mormon having the header listing coinage and said they used measuring containers, yet when I asked where are the containers, you failed to respond anymore.

You argue steel rusts, therefore we can’t be expecting to find evidence, yet metal artifacts from a much older period in time are found in the middle East. Not only the metal artifacts but the smelting tools are found.

Entire civilizations do not completely disappear from the face of the earth. The two battles that took place in Cumora, where millions died, produces no evidence. In fact, on every point where we’ve asked you for evidence on anything, you have admitted there is no evidence but, you believe it.

You argue the plates that the Book of Mormon was etched on couldn’t be reproduced. Wasn’t there a time it could have been written on skins, papyrus or any multiple sources for safe keeping?

Get up to speed. No evidence = serious questions.
You persist in comparing pre columbian meso america to the middle east. I don’t know what your problem is.

No one said the entire civilization disappeared. Did you ever hear of the Maya, Aztecs etc etc?

You complain that the church will not allow archaeological excavations and then complain that there are no bones. No excavations, no bones. These grounds are sacred, and if full of bones even more sacred. The church has no need to allow excavations

So you think that because they had a system of weights and measures, the containters had to be made of something not perishable? Give me a break. As I said, there is a system of weights and measures in use today by indians in the area which corresponds precisely to the same proportions as in the BOM

The plates were written on gold and were difficult to copy. Besides that, they were written in a language and script unfamiliar to the common people, just as say Latin would be today between Catholic priests. The plates were passed from one prophet to another. There were no copies. The plates were regarded with great reverence and contained sacred information.

There were no smelting tools to be found. I am not an expert on precolumbian metalurgy or the use of parchment etc., but it is my understanding that nothing of steel has been found ANYWHERE in meso america. I think also that metal use in general, even copper etc was in limited use.

I really have exhausted this topic, and I don’t know anything more about it. I have answered to the best of my knowledge and to my own satisfaction, and as far as I am concerned, the case on this question is closed. I will waste no more time on it say what you will.
 
You persist in comparing pre columbian meso america to the middle east. I don’t know what your problem is.

No one said the entire civilization disappeared. Did you ever hear of the Maya, Aztecs etc etc?

You complain that the church will not allow archaeological excavations and then complain that there are no bones. No excavations, no bones. These grounds are sacred, and if full of bones even more sacred. The church has no need to allow excavations

So you think that because they had a system of weights and measures, the containters had to be made of something not perishable? Give me a break. As I said, there is a system of weights and measures in use today by indians in the area which corresponds precisely to the same proportions as in the BOM

The plates were written on gold and were difficult to copy. Besides that, they were written in a language and script unfamiliar to the common people, just as say Latin would be today between Catholic priests. The plates were passed from one prophet to another. There were no copies. The plates were regarded with great reverence and contained sacred information.

There were no smelting tools to be found. I am not an expert on precolumbian metalurgy or the use of parchment etc., but it is my understanding that nothing of steel has been found ANYWHERE in meso america. I think also that metal use in general, even copper etc was in limited use.

I really have exhausted this topic, and I don’t know anything more about it. I have answered to the best of my knowledge and to my own satisfaction, and as far as I am concerned, the case on this question is closed. I will waste no more time on it say what you will.
I’m not going to bring it up. Your post answered my questions, with no explanations for anything. So those ‘sacred’ plates were perishable? The lost tribe of Israel would have never thought to record things as they were taught in the middle East? As I’ve asked before, don’t you ever wonder at all the excuses Mormons have to come up with to cover why there is no evidence for this or any other point brought up?

BTW, I’ve heard of the Mayans and Aztecs. If I remember correctly there is historical evidence that they were pagans. Why do you ask about them? :rolleyes:

Come on, where’s the evidence they were Christians? It appears to be grasping at straws to try and make a connection to Joseph Smith’s creativity.

I’m really starting to feel for you man.
 
I’m not going to bring it up. Your post answered my questions, with no explanations for anything. So those ‘sacred’ plates were perishable? The lost tribe of Israel would have never thought to record things as they were taught in the middle East? As I’ve asked before, don’t you ever wonder at all the excuses Mormons have to come up with to cover why there is no evidence for this or any other point brought up?

BTW, I’ve heard of the Mayans and Aztecs. If I remember correctly there is historical evidence that they were pagans. Why do you ask about them? :rolleyes:

Come on, where’s the evidence they were Christians? It appears to be grasping at straws to try and make a connection to Joseph Smith’s creativity.

I’m really starting to feel for you man.
The reason I don’t respond to you is that you distort everything I say. I never said the plates were perishable or anything else you say. Of course the Indians were pagans, but they had legends of Quetzelcoatl and other indications of apostate christianity. Their human sacrifice was from an apostate understanding of the savior’s “human sacrifice” for us. If you study the Isaiah chapters of 2 Nephi and study aztec religion – Isaiah repeatedly uses imagry which was incorporated into the Aztec mythological system. But that discussion is not for here.

That’s it.
 
The reason I don’t respond to you is that you distort everything I say. I never said the plates were perishable or anything else you say. Of course the Indians were pagans, but they had legends of Quetzelcoatl and other indications of apostate christianity. Their human sacrifice was from an apostate understanding of the savior’s “human sacrifice” for us. If you study the Isaiah chapters of 2 Nephi and study aztec religion – Isaiah repeatedly uses imagry which was incorporated into the Aztec mythological system. But that discussion is not for here.
That’s it.
Stick a fork in Ski, he’s done. Ski, everyone absolutely KNOWS, that if the slightest scrap of evidence for anything found in your bogus BOM had been discovered, the Old Men in Salt Lake City would be taking out full-page ads in the New York Times and in every other major media outlet. Ground too sacred to dig in? If mormonism thought that ANYTHING existed under Hill Cumorah, they would have leveled it with bulldozers. Face it, there is NO evidence for the fairy tales in the BOM, except the “word” of Joseph Smith and his henchmen. And ANY attempt to link non-existant “Nephites” with pre-columbian peoples is laughable. Sorry, won’t wash.:cool:
 
quotes from your site:
Metaphysics is the branch of philosophy that investigates principles of reality transcending those of any particular science, traditionally, cosmology and ontology.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metaphysics
There are logical proofs for the existence and attributes of God. You avoid these like the plague because LDS theology is completely incompatible with Christianity, Natural Theology and* reason*. I’m guessing that is why you avoid such rational discussions, preferring to divert them into off topic arguments that fit into the giant epistemic hole of confusion you have dug for yourself.
 
From Wikipedia

"Pahana
The true Pahana (or Bahana) is the “Lost White Brother” of the Hopi. Most versions have it that the Pahana or Elder Brother left for the east at the time that the Hopi entered the Fourth World and began their migrations. However, the Hopi say that he will return again and at his coming the wicked will be destroyed and a new age of peace will be ushered into the world. As mentioned above, it is said he will bring with him a missing section of a sacred Hopi stone in the possession of the Fire Clan, and that he will come wearing red. Traditionally, Hopis are buried facing eastward in expectation of the Pahana who will come from that direction.[38]

The legend of the Pahana seems intimately connected with the Aztec story of Quetzalcoatl, and other legends of Central America.[39] This similarity is furthered by the liberal representation of Awanyu, the horned or plumed serpent, in Hopi and other Puebloan art. This figure bears a striking resemblance to figures of Quetzacoatl, the feathered serpent, in Mexico. In the early 16th century, both the Hopis and the Aztecs seem to have believed that coming of the Spanish conquistadors was in fact the return of this lost white prophet.[citation needed] However, unlike the Aztecs, upon first contact the Hopi put the Spanish through a series of tests in order to determine their divinity, and having failed, the Spanish were sent away from the Hopi mesas.[40]

One account has it that the Hopi realized that the Spanish were not the Pahana based upon the destruction of a Hopi town by the Spanish. Thus when the Spanish arrived at the village of Awatovi, they drew a line of cornmeal as a sign for the Spanish not to enter the village, but this was ignored. While some Hopi wanted to fight the invaders, it was decided to try a peaceful approach in the hope that the Spanish would eventually leave.[41] However, Spanish accounts record a short skirmish at Awatovi before the Hopis capitulated. Frank Waters records a Hopi tradition that the Spanish did ignore a cornmeal line drawn by the Hopis and a short battle followed. However, after the Hopi surrendered, they were still unsure of whether the Spanish were the returning Pahana. He writes that after the skirmish at Awatovi,

“Tovar [the leader of the Spanish] and his men were conducted to Oraibi. They were met by all the clan chiefs at Tawtoma, as prescribed by prophecy, where four lines of sacred meal were drawn. The Bear Clan leader stepped up to the barrier and extended his hand, palm up, to the leader of the white men. If he was indeed the true Pahana, the Hopis knew he would extend his own hand, palm down, and clasp the Bear Clan leader’s hand to form the nakwach, the ancient symbol of brotherhood. Tovar instead curtly commanded one of his men to drop a gift into the Bear chief’s hand, believing that the Indian wanted a present of some kind. Instantly all the Hopi chiefs knew that Pahana had forgotten the ancient agreement made between their peoples at the time of their separation. Nevertheless, the Spaniards were escorted up to Oraibi, fed and quartered, and the agreement explained to them. It was understood that when the two were finally reconciled, each would correct the other’s laws and faults; they would live side by side and share in common all the riches of the land and join their faiths in one religion that would establish the truth of life in a spirit of universal brotherhood. The Spaniards did not understand, and having found no gold, they soon departed.”[42]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hopi_mythology
 
Metaphysics is the branch of philosophy that investigates principles of reality transcending those of any particular science, traditionally, cosmology and ontology.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metaphysics
There are logical proofs for the existence and attributes of God. You avoid these like the plague because LDS theology is completely incompatible with Christianity, Natural Theology and* reason*. I’m guessing that is why you avoid such rational discussions, preferring to divert them into off topic arguments that fit into the giant epistemic hole of confusion you have dug for yourself.
There are only logical proofs for the existence of God if you ascribe to Thomism, which I do not. As I have said, Aquinas’ logic is based on principles going back to Aristotle, and Aquinas’ proofs are over 800 years old. That doesn’t make them false if you take them on faith, but on the other hand, if you take them on faith there is no need for logical proof.

Aquinas’ conception of causation was disproved by Hume 250 years ago.

I prefer at least 20th century logical principles which include linguistic analysis and pragmatism as propounded as I have said inumerable times, Wittgenstein and William James.

These allow for a more realistic view of experience than Thomism.

You should read “Varieties of Religous Experience” by James who was actually raised in a Swedenborgian household, though he was not religious in the usual sense.

Not surprisingly, Swedenborg’s doctrine is remarkably close to LDS doctrine in many particulars

The philosophy of James also provides an epistemological base for the testimony experience
 
From Wikipedia

"Pahana
The true Pahana (or Bahana) is the “Lost White Brother” of the Hopi. Most versions have it that the Pahana or Elder Brother left for the east at the time that the Hopi entered the Fourth World and began their migrations. However, the Hopi say that he will return again and at his coming the wicked will be destroyed and a new age of peace will be ushered into the world. As mentioned above, it is said he will bring with him a missing section of a sacred Hopi stone in the possession of the Fire Clan, and that he will come wearing red. Traditionally, Hopis are buried facing eastward in expectation of the Pahana who will come from that direction.[38]

The legend of the Pahana seems intimately connected with the Aztec story of Quetzalcoatl, and other legends of Central America.[39] This similarity is furthered by the liberal representation of Awanyu, the horned or plumed serpent, in Hopi and other Puebloan art. This figure bears a striking resemblance to figures of Quetzacoatl, the feathered serpent, in Mexico. In the early 16th century, both the Hopis and the Aztecs seem to have believed that coming of the Spanish conquistadors was in fact the return of this lost white prophet.[citation needed] However, unlike the Aztecs, upon first contact the Hopi put the Spanish through a series of tests in order to determine their divinity, and having failed, the Spanish were sent away from the Hopi mesas.[40]

One account has it that the Hopi realized that the Spanish were not the Pahana based upon the destruction of a Hopi town by the Spanish. Thus when the Spanish arrived at the village of Awatovi, they drew a line of cornmeal as a sign for the Spanish not to enter the village, but this was ignored. While some Hopi wanted to fight the invaders, it was decided to try a peaceful approach in the hope that the Spanish would eventually leave.[41] However, Spanish accounts record a short skirmish at Awatovi before the Hopis capitulated. Frank Waters records a Hopi tradition that the Spanish did ignore a cornmeal line drawn by the Hopis and a short battle followed. However, after the Hopi surrendered, they were still unsure of whether the Spanish were the returning Pahana. He writes that after the skirmish at Awatovi,

“Tovar [the leader of the Spanish] and his men were conducted to Oraibi. They were met by all the clan chiefs at Tawtoma, as prescribed by prophecy, where four lines of sacred meal were drawn. The Bear Clan leader stepped up to the barrier and extended his hand, palm up, to the leader of the white men. If he was indeed the true Pahana, the Hopis knew he would extend his own hand, palm down, and clasp the Bear Clan leader’s hand to form the nakwach, the ancient symbol of brotherhood. Tovar instead curtly commanded one of his men to drop a gift into the Bear chief’s hand, believing that the Indian wanted a present of some kind. Instantly all the Hopi chiefs knew that Pahana had forgotten the ancient agreement made between their peoples at the time of their separation. Nevertheless, the Spaniards were escorted up to Oraibi, fed and quartered, and the agreement explained to them. It was understood that when the two were finally reconciled, each would correct the other’s laws and faults; they would live side by side and share in common all the riches of the land and join their faiths in one religion that would establish the truth of life in a spirit of universal brotherhood. The Spaniards did not understand, and having found no gold, they soon departed.”[42]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hopi_mythology
LDS people will notice several remarkable parallels with our doctrine in this account. Notable are of course the “white prophet” who will return from the East in red robes (“washed by the blood of the lamb”) the notion of a series of tests to “prove divinity” and afirm a covenant. The way in which the tests were performed will also be familiar. The plumed serpent has a remarkable similarity to the firey serpent symbol of the savior erected by Moses. There is a reference in Malachai to the savior as the “Sun (yes s-u-n) who comes with healing in his wings”.

I believe this iconography is an apostate version of biblical passages and and iconography indicating an unmistakable connection between the religion of mesoamerica and that of the middle east. So many similarities could not have happened without some major “missing link” which of course I believe were the christian teachings of the nephites.

And it is also clear to me that Isaiah’s imagery found in the BOM had influence on Aztec relgion.

If I had a year or two, I could show you exactly! But I don’t expect you to believe that I guess, but it IS a personal proclamation of my faith.
 
There are only logical proofs for the existence of God if you ascribe to Thomism, which I do not. As I have said, Aquinas’ logic is based on principles going back to Aristotle, and Aquinas’ proofs are over 800 years old. That doesn’t make them false if you take them on faith, but on the other hand, if you take them on faith there is no need for logical proof.

Aquinas’ conception of causation was disproved by Hume 250 years ago.
smileyhut.com/laughing/rofl.gif
Hume’s Dialogues concerning Natural Religion didn’t disprove anything.
 
LDS people will notice several remarkable parallels with our doctrine in this account. Notable are of course the “white prophet” who will return from the East in red robes (“washed by the blood of the lamb”) the notion of a series of tests to “prove divinity” and afirm a covenant. The way in which the tests were performed will also be familiar. The plumed serpent has a remarkable similarity to the firey serpent symbol of the savior erected by Moses. There is a reference in Malachai to the savior as the “Sun (yes s-u-n) who comes with healing in his wings”.
I believe this iconography is an apostate version of biblical passages and and iconography indicating an unmistakable connection between the religion of mesoamerica and that of the middle east. So many similarities could not have happened without some major “missing link” which of course I believe were the christian teachings of the nephites.
So Ski, are you now an Aztec pagan?
If so, I think that your temple recommend is in jeopardy.

Ski, why do you waste everyone’s time with this trash?
[/QUOTE]
 
The legend of the Pahana seems intimately connected with the Aztec story of Quetzalcoatl, and other legends of Central America.[39] This similarity is furthered by the liberal representation of Awanyu, the horned or plumed serpent, in Hopi and other Puebloan art. This figure bears a striking resemblance to figures of Quetzacoatl, the feathered serpent, in Mexico. In the early 16th century, both the Hopis and the Aztecs seem to have believed that coming of the Spanish conquistadors was in fact the return of this lost white prophet.[citation needed] However, unlike the Aztecs, upon first contact the Hopi put the Spanish through a series of tests in order to determine their divinity, and having failed, the Spanish were sent away from the Hopi mesas.[40]%between%
Do you only research to a point where you find an answer you are looking for,and then stop?

To begin with, the legend of Native Americans mistaking the Spanish for gods has been historically proven to be a myth. A myth that was started by the Spanish themselves. They did what Mormons are supremely adept at, that is, overlaying their own beliefs and culture over the top of another culture and redefining that culture to their own.

Mayans and Aztecs are ancient Mormon cultures! This is beyond ridiculous. But it does align nicely to Smith and his tales…totally made up Native American history.

As for the feathered serpent…that god existed in mesoamerica long before the time of Christ. It is a PAGAN god, but like all things pagan, Mormons seem to get mixed up think pagan beliefs hold some form of Christian truths.

There is no evidence of Christianity in the Americas prior to the arrival of Europeans in the 15th century. None.
 
What if the Jews are right? They are older than you and have more tradition. How do you know that Jesus was not a fraud?

Take a typical hosemonkey post and substitute “Jesus” for what he says about Joseph Smith.

How would any Catholic know that Jesus was not a fraud using your usual traditionalist historical perspective? Actually Judaisim is I think more consistent than Catholicism if this is your perspective. Look at the history! You upstarts claim two thousand years? How would you like 6 thousand on your side?

Where is the archaeological evidence for Jesus? That is your criteria, so please produce the evidence.
This is the most disturbing thing about Mormonism. Forget the twisting of history, the anthropological hijacking, and even the polytheism.

Let’s discuss how it is that Mormons have their way of thinking soooooo screwed up, that they can state that if JS claims are a lie, so are those of Jesus.
 
This is the most disturbing thing about Mormonism. Forget the twisting of history, the anthropological hijacking, and even the polytheism.

Let’s discuss how it is that Mormons have their way of thinking soooooo screwed up, that they can state that if JS claims are a lie, so are those of Jesus.
I never said anything of the kind, and you know it.

I was making the point that you criticize us for placing faith in our testimony. All I was pointing out is that you have the same problem. If your knowledge of the truth of catholicism is based on history and tradition, you still can’t prove that Jesus was the savior from history itself. That he lived and people THOUGHT he was the Christ is another thing. But without the “testimony” that Jesus was the Christ, you might as well be Jewish.
 
Ski, why do you waste everyone’s time with this trash?
That’s all he’s got, a parallel with a pagan people, from Hopi mythology. Why do they bury their people facing the East?
Most Hopi accounts of creation center around Tawa, the Sun Spirit.
To be fair to the parallel idea, didn’t Brigham Young believe there were men living on the Sun?
Who can tell us of the inhabitants of this little planet that shines of an evening, called the moon? When we view its face we may see what is termed “the man in the moon,” and what some philosophers declare are the shadows of mountains. But these sayings are very vague, and amount to nothing; and when you inquire about the inhabitants of that sphere you find that the most learned are as ignorant in regard to them as the most ignorant of their fellows. So it is with regard to the inhabitants of the sun. Do you think it is inhabited? I rather think it is. Do you think there is any life there? No question of it; it was not made in vain. (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 13, p. 271)
 
Wait, more parallels:
The Hopi maintain a complex religious and mythological tradition stretching back over centuries. However, it is difficult to definitively state what all Hopis as a group believe. Like the oral traditions of many other societies, Hopi mythology is not always told consistently and each Hopi mesa, or even each village, may have its own version of a particular story. But, “in essence the variants of the Hopi myth bear marked similarity to one another.”[1] It is also not clear that those stories which are told to non-Hopis, such as anthropologists and ethnographers, represent genuine Hopi beliefs or are merely stories told to the curious while keeping safe the Hopi’s more sacred doctrines. As folklorist Harold Courlander states, “there is a Hopi reticence about discussing matters that could be considered ritual secrets or religion-oriented traditions.”[2] David Roberts continues that “the secrecy that lies at the heart of Puebloan [including Hopi] life…long predates European contact, forming an intrinsic feature of the culture.”[3] In addition, the Hopis have always been willing to assimilate foreign ideas into their cosmology if they are proven effective for such practical necessities as bringing rain.[4] As such, it is important to note that the Hopi had at least some contact with Europeans beginning the 16th century, and some believe that European Christian traditions may have entered into Hopi cosmology at some point. Indeed, Spanish missions were built in several Hopi villages starting in 1629 and were in operation until the Pueblo Revolt of 1680. However, after the revolt, it was the Hopi alone of all the Pueblo tribes who kept the Spanish out of their villages permanently, and regular contact with whites did not begin again until nearly two centuries later. The Hopi mesas have therefore been seen as “relatively unacculturated” at least through the early twentieth century, and it may be posited that the European influence on the core themes of Hopi mythology was slight.[5]
Mormon temple ceremony?

Seems they believed in the plurality of Gods:
Most Hopi accounts of creation center around Tawa, the Sun Spirit. Tawa is the Creator, and it was he who formed the First World out of Tokpella, or Endless Space, as well as its original inhabitants.[6] It is still traditional for Hopi mothers to seek a blessing from the Sun for their newborn children.[7] However, other accounts have it that Tawa, or Taiowa, first created Sotuknang, whom he called his nephew. Taiowa then sent Sotuknang to create the nine universes according to his plan, and it was Sotuknang who created Spider Woman, or Spider Grandmother.[8] Spider Woman served as a messenger for the Creator and was an intercessorary between deity and the people. In some versions of the Hopi creation myth, it is she who creates all life under the direction of Sotuknang.[9] Yet other stories tell that life was created by Hard Being Woman of the West and Hard Being Woman of the East, while the Sun merely observed the process.[10][11]
Masauwu, Skeleton Man, was the Spirit of Death and the Keeper of Fire. He was also the Master of the Upper World, or the Fourth World, and was there when the good people escaped the wickedness of the Third World for the promise of the Fourth.[12] Masauwu is described as wearing a hideous mask, but again showing the diversity of myths among the Hopi, Masauwu was alternately described as a handsome, bejeweled man beneath his mask or as a bloody, fearsome creature. However, he is also assigned certain benevolent attributes.[13] One story has it that it was Masauwu who helped settle the Hopi at Oraibi and gave them stewardship over the land. He also charged them to watch for the coming of the Pahana (see section below), the Lost White Brother.[14] Other important deities include the twin war gods, the kachinas, and the trickster Coyote.
Maize is also vital to Hopi subsistence and religion. “For traditional Hopis, corn is the central bond. Its essence, physically, spiritually, and symbolically, pervades their existence. For the people of the mesas corn is sustenance, ceremonial object, prayer offering, symbol, and sentient being unto itself. Corn is the Mother in the truest sense that people take in the corn and the corn becomes their flesh, as mother milk becomes the flesh of the child."[15]
Milk before corn?

Time to be fair to the Hopi people:
A new book casts doubts on a basic claim in the Book of Mormon, that Native Americans are somehow related to a lost tribe from Israel who emigrated to the Americas 2,600 years ago.
In “Losing a Lost Tribe: Native Americans, DNA, and the Mormon Church,” research scientist Simon Southerton of Canberra, Australia, states that American Indians and Polynesians appear to be of Asian extraction, noting that none of the nearly 7,500 DNA-tested Native Americans shows any link to ancient Israel. This conclusion has also been reached by many other scientists studying mitochondrial DNA lines.
The debate, which has been raging for years, is less about the ancestral origins of Native Americans, and more about how it affects basic beliefs of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as expressed in the Book of Mormon. Simon Southerton, a former member of the LDS church, feels that church leaders should just own up to the problems with some of the literal teachings in the Book of Mormon, given the current results of DNA research. "They should come out and say, ‘There’s no evidence to support your Israelite ancestry,’ " Southerton said in an article in USA Today. “I don’t have any problem with anyone believing what’s in the Book of Mormon. Just don’t make it look like science is backing it all up.”
 
The reason I don’t respond to you is that you distort everything I say. I never said the plates were perishable or anything else you say. Of course the Indians were pagans, but they had legends of Quetzelcoatl and other indications of apostate christianity. Their human sacrifice was from an apostate understanding of the savior’s “human sacrifice” for us. If you study the Isaiah chapters of 2 Nephi and study aztec religion – Isaiah repeatedly uses imagry which was incorporated into the Aztec mythological system. But that discussion is not for here.

That’s it.
This post of yours shows you don’t need my help to distort what you say. :rolleyes:

Grasping at straws as usual. 🤷
 
I never said anything of the kind, and you know it.
I was making the point that you criticize us for placing faith in our testimony. All I was pointing out is that you have the same problem. If your knowledge of the truth of catholicism is based on history and tradition, you still can’t prove that Jesus was the savior from history itself. That he lived and people THOUGHT he was the Christ is another thing. But without the “testimony” that Jesus was the Christ, you might as well be Jewish.
Ski, you’re really starting to lose it dude. You need to get back on your meds.
 
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