Catholic to Mormon to Catholic?

[RebeccaJ]

I will only add one thing in regards to your question about temple.

Every Catholic church has an Altar in it. A new Altar is consecrated with oil, and it is the central point of every church.

One striking thing to me that I don’t remember being very significant to a Mormon, is that at Christ’s death, the veil of the temple was destroyed by an earthquake. A very strong symbolism that, don’t you agree?

It is a great indication of what Jesus’ taught, that His Sacrifice is the New Covenant. This Sacrifice is found in the Sacrament of the Eucharist, which Jesus’ taught to the Apostles and called the New and Everlasting Covenant.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I’m glad you mentioned intent. I should have added it.

 

[PaulDupre]

I will only add one thing in regards to your question about temple.

Every Catholic church has an Altar in it. A new Altar is consecrated with oil, and it is the central point of every church.

One striking thing to me that I don’t remember being very significant to a Mormon, is that at Christ’s death, the veil of the temple was destroyed by an earthquake. A very strong symbolism that, don’t you agree?

It is a great indication of what Jesus’ taught, that His Sacrifice is the New Covenant. This Sacrifice is found in the Sacrament of the Eucharist, which Jesus’ taught to the Apostles and called the New and Everlasting Covenant.

Good points all. Also remember that we no longer need temples built with hands, because in the New and Everlasting Covenant each of us is supposed to be a temple of the Holy Spirit.

We are the place where God most desires to dwell.

God love you,
Paull

 

[C2M2C]

But I do recommend that you go through RCIA.

I did, my wife and I went last week. She struggled a bit at first. The first being that we were there to begin with but then seeing, bra straps, cleavage, tattoos, and short shorts- things Mormons aren’t used to seeing in a religious setting, especially in Utah! Not that we’re not used to seeing it, jut not at church.

There were a few other things that made her uncomfortable, mainly superficial things that she just isn’t used to, but oher than that I think she was okay. I am pretty sure she will go again with me this Thursday…

 

[BRB]

seeing, bra straps, cleavage, tattoos, and short shorts- things

that we’re not used to seeing it, jut not at church.

QUOTE]

I agree on need for proper dress

When are the Pope and Priests gonna stress need for Catholics to improve their dress code ?

Shorts are so common in Mass these days …

 

[1holycatholic]

C2M2C;4234305:

seeing, bra straps, cleavage, tattoos, and short shorts- things

that we’re not used to seeing it, jut not at church.

QUOTE]

I agree on need for proper dress

When are the Pope and Priests gonna stress need for Catholics to improve their dress code ?

Shorts are so common in Mass these days

…
Not in St. Peter’s Basilica.

 

[po18guy]

I have seen that Catholics do not accept Mormon baptisms, only those that have been performed saying the words you mention above, however I baptized my son and this is what was said:

“…having been commissioned of Jesus Christ I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of Son, and of the Holy Spirit, Amen”

So what is the issue with Mormon baptisms then?

The Vatican has studied the baptisms of other faith communities at great length. What became obvious was that the LDS have a completely different definition of the very nature of God. Thus, the words spoken at an LDS baptism are referring to either a different god, and/or a non-scriptural concept of God.

Know also that the Catholic Church does not accept some Pentecostal baptisms which are in the name of Christ only. Jesus Himself commanded to baptize in the name (singular) of the Trinity. Thus, the Pentecostals who baptize only in Jesus’ name, and the LDS who baptize into a different/different concept of God cannot, in good conscience, be accepted by the larger Christian community.

The Catholic Church recognizes all Trinitarian baptisms that use the proper form and substance (Eternal Trinitarian God, and water as the medium).

Hope this helps.

p.s. I will pray for your entire family. It’s that important! When you receive Christ into your body, when you kneel in prayer in His presence (you can do that now at Adoration!), you will know an inner peace that transcends human understanding. Forget the warm fuzzies - the Holy Spirit will rock you!

 

[RebeccaJ]

I did, my wife and I went last week. She struggled a bit at first. The first being that we were there to begin with but then seeing, bra straps, cleavage, tattoos, and short shorts- things Mormons aren’t used to seeing in a religious setting, especially in Utah! Not that we’re not used to seeing it, jut not at church.

The Catholic Church is made up of many different people and cultures. There is a difference here, in that, with Mormonism a new convert is expected to become a clean, white, American. RCIA is pretty casual, and people there are investigating Catholicism. There is no dress code for an investigator and you may find getting to know the people in RCIA, you will get out of that Mormon comfort zone and discover new relationships.

People are free to wear what they will, even at Mass, though the Church has said many times that Catholics should dress modestly. At Church and everywhere else. People have their free will and you will find at Mass that some show up like they are going clubbing. However, there is absolutely no reason that your wife need change how she dresses or how you teach your children. Modesty is a Catholic virtue.

There were a few other things that made her uncomfortable, mainly superficial things that she just isn’t used to, but oher than that I think she was okay. I am pretty sure she will go again with me this Thursday…

I understand. When I first started going to Mass, there were times I felt like running out the door as fast as I could. But there were many things there that I liked and so I looked for more things to like. What did you and your wife like or enjoy?

 

[po18guy]

The Catholic Church is made up of many different people and cultures. There is a difference here, in that, with Mormonism a new convert is expected to become a clean, white, American. RCIA is pretty casual, and people there are investigating Catholicism. There is no dress code for an investigator and you may find getting to know the people in RCIA, you will get out of that Mormon comfort zone and discover new relationships.

People are free to wear what they will, even at Mass, though the Church has said many times that Catholics should dress modestly. At Church and everywhere else. People have their free will and you will find at Mass that some show up like they are going clubbing. However, there is absolutely no reason that your wife need change how she dresses or how you teach your children. Modesty is a Catholic virtue.

I understand. When I first started going to Mass, there were times I felt like running out the door as fast as I could. But there were many things there that I liked and so I looked for more things to like. What did you and your wife like or enjoy?

Rebecca, you are doing a wonderful and Spirit-filled job of explaining the faith. Since the Catholic Church is full of sinners, just as Christ ate and drank with sinners, you see people in all stages of conversion to Christ when you are at mass. I don’t have to go all that far back to see myself acting or dressing inappropriately. The Lord places them before us as a reminder that they need prayer, just as we all do.

Christ’s peace.

 

[C2M2C]

Please don’t think this was about judging those that were in attendance. The dress and atmosphere wasn’t anything that we’re not used to outside of church. It was just a little odd to go into a church setting and see some of those things, when your not used to seeing it at church. Mormonism is very white, clean, and neat in general, even for meetings or classes that aren’t held on Sunday. So as far as my wife was concerned it was just something that she isn’t used to.

The class was just a summary of the OT and NT. What was good for her was that she was familiar with what was taught and that it wasn’t something totally new. At least from my perspective there are a lot of similarities between the two faiths, it’s just the few points that are different are drastically different. And then the way it is presented varies too.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Rebecca, you are doing a wonderful and Spirit-filled job of explaining the faith. Since the Catholic Church is full of sinners, just as Christ ate and drank with sinners, you see people in all stages of conversion to Christ when you are at mass. I don’t have to go all that far back to see myself acting or dressing inappropriately. The Lord places them before us as a reminder that they need prayer, just as we all do.

Christ’s peace.

Thanks, and I agree with you 100%.

Everyone belongs at Mass, no matter what they are wearing, or where they are at in their spiritual journeys.

 

[Nickkname]

To be brief I was raised Catholic and when I was 18 living in Utah I was given a Book of Mormon. I was told to read it and pray about it as stated in John 1:5 and Moroni 10:4. I did, felt the “burning in the bosom” and now 18 years later I have been a Mormon ever since, married in the Temple, heavily involved in the youth program of my ward, four kids, the oldest of which I just baptized last month, and deeply entrenched in Utah Mormon culture, etc, etc, etc. If you live in Utah and are a Mormon or were, you know what I mean.

The problem began about a month ago when searching for something on Google I came across some Mormon church history. I studied, learned and became a little “too familiar” with the Church’s past. Needless to say, a reasonable person could no longer continue as a Mormon knowing the truth.

So here I am, wondering where do I go from here. A study of the doctrine of the Catholic church or any other church for that matter is secondary to me in a way because the primary concern is finding the true church, Christ’s church. Then the doctrine will matter. In other words, if the Mormons are right then their idea of Heaven is right, same with Catholics. I have a good “general” sense of Catholic teachings but if the church is not the true one, then the doctrine is irrelevant.

So how do I know? How do I find out? I understand Apostolic succession and to a certain extent I think I believe it. The history makes sense and adds up but my problem is that as a Mormon I was told to “study it out” come up with what I felt to be the right answer and then ask God for a confirmation. So what do Catholics do?
How do you pray for an understanding of these things? How do you get answers? Do you get answers? How do they come? Feelings, promptings, thoughts, signs?

As a Mormon I felt like I had answers to almost everything and if I didn’t i need do nothing more than pray about it. I now no longer trust what I feel.

To a certain extent, scriptural backing is almost irrelevant too. Why? Because almost everyone can find or quote scriptures that back or “prove” their belief. Catholics can and so can Mormons and Born Agains.

I am distraught, sad, mad, confused and I need help. Prayers, thoughts, suggestions? Any or all would be helpful.

Regards

C2M2C?

Check out the claims of each of the churches and see which one is true. See which church in the world goes all the way back to the Apostles, to Jesus. Then you will find the true Church, the Church of Christ.

 

[po18guy]

Please don’t think this was about judging those that were in attendance. The dress and atmosphere wasn’t anything that we’re not used to outside of church. It was just a little odd to go into a church setting and see some of those things, when your not used to seeing it at church. Mormonism is very white, clean, and neat in general, even for meetings or classes that aren’t held on Sunday. So as far as my wife was concerned it was just something that she isn’t used to.

The class was just a summary of the OT and NT. What was good for her was that she was familiar with what was taught and that it wasn’t something totally new. At least from my perspective there are a lot of similarities between the two faiths, it’s just the few points that are different are drastically different. And then the way it is presented varies too.

Not at all! It’s just that the LDS places I think, a little more emphasis on physical conformity while the Catholic stresses more spiritual conformity. I could be wrong, but it’s just my impression. This respects God’s individual creations (us) while obeying His Commands. Since the Catholic Church covers the world, those who gather in Tanzania, for example, appear quite different from us. The content of the mass, however, is exactly the same.

C2M2C, have you spent time before our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament? It is Christ in the flesh, and He will reveal truth to you. Miracles have occurred in prayer before him. I can testify to that. Seek out a local parish and ask about the times of Adoration. If you believe in Christ, and I know you do, go to Him! You will have your answer.

Christ’s peace be with you.

 

[mfbukowski]

Is that what the Mormon organization is teaching now?

Well, I’m back, catching up on the thread.

Just for the record, Paul you were right- this was a typo, my fingers typed “marriage” while my brain was thinking “resurrection”. Gotta get in there and find that loose wire.

Also, lest you actually think so, anything I say is not necessarily what the “Mormon organization” teaches anyway, it’s what I believe which I believe is compatible with what the church teaches. I found the Church of JCLDS because it corresponded to what I already believed, and the due to spiritual experiences.

C2M2C, I think you have gotten far enough down the line that it kind of doesn’t matter to you what anyone from my side of the fence says. As I have said before, it gets that way sometimes. I have already answered many of your questions to MY satisfaction (meaning that I have given you the answers that have satisfied me in my life when I asked myself the same questions) and it hasn’t helped. Or again, maybe someone else could answer them, but I don’t think I am that person.

It gets that way when we make important decisions sometimes I know. It’s like you are going down to pick up the new car, and the other dealer calls with a good deal on that other one, but there’s a point where you don’t want to hear about the other car anymore-- you have decided. I think that is where you are right now, so God bless you. Catholics are great people and it’s a fine path.

I could not follow it for the same reasons you cannot follow Mormonism – too many questions that make no sense to me. The real presence, and all that very shaky history-- to me there is no way that either of those things could ever be true. Plus many doctrines – “invincible ignorance”-- how could any church actually have a doctrine where they admit that they don’t know the answer.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Well, I’m back, catching up on the thread.

Plus many doctrines – “invincible ignorance”-- how could any church actually have a doctrine where they admit that they don’t know the answer.

welcome back. Invincible ignorance is talking about you, and probably me too, not Church doctrine.

There is no doctrine in Catholicism that is not knowable by reason. But I understand the struggle it is to know certain things. Though, I’d say, those particular struggles are not unique and no one has the answers for them.

 

[mfbukowski]

welcome back. Invincible ignorance is talking about you, and probably me too, not Church doctrine.

There is no doctrine in Catholicism that is not knowable by reason. But I understand the struggle it is to know certain things. Though, I’d say, those particular struggles are not unique and no one has the answers for them.

Rebecca, I honestly don’t want to pick a fight here, but surely you don’t mean that Catholicism does not require faith.

I don’t think that real presence could possibly be “knowable by reason”. That doesn’t make it untrue, just unprovable.

As far as “invincible ignorance”, I think I understand that it applies to us as people. But no one in any church could possibly know whether any other person is “saved” or what the judgement of God is for an individual, unless as in the situation of Catholic saints, there is some sort of “revelation” stating that “yes, this person is in God’s presence.” (Of course I might disagree with that revelation in the Catholic church personally, or in many cases I might actually agree)

But my point is that Catholicism does not even have a THEORY or doctrine about what happens to unbaptised babies in a general way.

My understanding was that it used to be “limbo” and that is how I was taught as a catholic child, but now I have heard that the doctrine has changed, or it has been stated now that it never WAS doctrine. You guys tend to criticize us for our stand on priesthood to black people, but I see this limbo issue as an exact parallel. In both cases, erroneous things were taught which were never really “doctrine”.

But what I meant was that it is very weird to me that Catholicism does not have clear doctrine on what happens to babies who are not baptized. Again, not about any given baby, but babies in general.

Not to mention what happens to those born in say, 3,000 BC in China who never had any possiblity of believing in Jesus.

I mean not to have a position on it other than “we really don’t know, that’s up to God” is weird.

Unless I am mistaken, which is certainly possible.

 

[pismopal]

Many are having an interesting discussion of the LDS denom and comparing it to the Catholic Church. I would like to suggest a shortcut for the searchers here. Just take a close look at Joseph Smith…a very objective look and your answer will be very clear. One cannot take the LDS denom without Joseph Smith and that is an undeniable fact. Take him or leave it.

 

[mfbukowski]

I will only add one thing in regards to your question about temple.

Every Catholic church has an Altar in it. A new Altar is consecrated with oil, and it is the central point of every church.

One striking thing to me that I don’t remember being very significant to a Mormon, is that at Christ’s death, the veil of the temple was destroyed by an earthquake. A very strong symbolism that, don’t you agree?

It is a great indication of what Jesus’ taught, that His Sacrifice is the New Covenant. This Sacrifice is found in the Sacrament of the Eucharist, which Jesus’ taught to the Apostles and called the New and Everlasting Covenant.

Honestly, it is more important to understanding Mormons than anyone else, but I don’t discuss temple topics

Read Hebrews 10 especially verse 20

 

[RebeccaJ]

Rebecca, I honestly don’t want to pick a fight here, but surely you don’t mean that Catholicism does not require faith.

Of course faith is required, why would you think that it isn’t?

I don’t think that real presence could possibly be “knowable by reason”. That doesn’t make it untrue, just unprovable.

The doctrine certainly is knowable. An understanding of how it is correct doctrine. Understanding the Real Presence of Jesus is known by the Holy Spirit. I thought you already knew to ask God.

As far as “invincible ignorance”, I think I understand that it applies to us as people. But no one in any church could possibly know whether any other person is “saved” or what the judgement of God is for an individual, unless as in the situation of Catholic saints, there is some sort of “revelation” stating that “yes, this person is in God’s presence.” (Of course I might disagree with that revelation in the Catholic church personally, or in many cases I might actually agree)

Lost me there…it is mainly applied by confessors who are helping people overcome sin. If a person does not understand something is a sin, and can’t come to that understanding by any means…what would you call that?

But my point is that Catholicism does not even have a THEORY or doctrine about what happens to unbaptised babies in a general way.

WHY is this important??? You just said up there that no one knows how anyone will be judged. YOU take care of YOU, as Catholic parents we take care of our children and have them baptized, and as a Christian community or individual we can help each other, but I cannot say how Christ is going to judge you. Certainly, there are doctrines that define sin and if someone is knowingly committing a sin, the chances are possible (some would say probable) that judgment isn’t going to go well.

For an infant, that person is as individual as you. I can’t judge, why do you think you can? No one here who is catholic, of any church, believes an infant is or can be guilty of a personal sin. So what is wrong in saying God will judge and we believe God is merciful?

My understanding was that it used to be “limbo” and that is how I was taught as a catholic child, but now I have heard that the doctrine has changed, or it has been stated now that it never WAS doctrine. You guys tend to criticize us for our stand on priesthood to black people, but I see this limbo issue as an exact parallel. In both cases, erroneous things were taught which were never really “doctrine”.

You need to study limbo…limbo was saying, WE DON’T KNOW.

But what I meant was that it is very weird to me that Catholicism does not have clear doctrine on what happens to babies who are not baptized. Again, not about any given baby, but babies in general.

Weird to you, because you have this idea that we’re all going to spend 1000 years baptising everyone that was ever born. Sorry, but that is beyond weirder than saying we don’t know, God is our judge, and we believe He is merciful.

And, I’ll add, you have a very wrong belief/doctrine regarding the fall…which messes up your ability to understand correct, orthodox, doctrine.

Not to mention what happens to those born in say, 3,000 BC in China who never had any possiblity of believing in Jesus.

I mean not to have a position on it other than “we really don’t know, that’s up to God” is weird.

The Catholic Church has a clear teaching on this. When Christ descended into hell, he opened the gates of heaven.

Unless I am mistaken, which is certainly possible.

You need to study.

 

[mfbukowski]

Exactly!! …
In the history of God’s covenantal relationship with man, we see it INCREASING in size.
(It was Scott Hahn that I learned this from.)
A marriage (Adam and Eve)
A family (Noah)
A tribe (Abraham)
A kingdom (Jacob who is Israel, the 12 tribes)
An international kingdom (David)
To the entire world (Jesus)

Any religion that denies the catholicity (universality) of the faith of Jesus just isn’t logical for me… and I would warn against it.

another reason to ponder for WHY the faith is now opened to all people.
The messiah was to reunite the kingdom (12 tribes), but this would be seemingly impossible since 10 of the tribes were ‘lost’.
Well … not lost so much as in the North and disseminated with the locals for generations… the blood of the lost tribes was sacred, but no longer pure.
The ONLY way to bring the blood of the lost tribes back into union was to open the relationship with God to all people.
Not sure if this thought came out right … sorry if it didn’t.

Cheers!

michel

Yep.

This is a pretty “OK” statement of Mormon Doctrine.

Thanks