Catholic to Protestant

[cooterhein]

I believe you are completely wrong on your perception that Catholicism is on the decline.

It’s still growing numerically, but then again what isn’t, look at global population growth as a whole. Catholicism is losing percentage points, though, and it’s losing them within Christianity and against the global backdrop as well. Catholicism still has just a bit over 50% of the market share, but that’s been dropping and it will continue to slide. The biggest area of growth within Christianity has been among the Independents, a group that’s collectively drawn ahead of the Eastern Orthodox and drawn pretty much even with the more traditional idea of Protestantism. The appearance of these Independents in the last 30 years- some in America but mostly in developing nations- is about as significant as the whole Protestant thing throughout the 16th century.

I did this research too. www.adherents.com is the place to go. The recollection I have was that if you took Catholicism and Orhtodoxy and tallied the numbers you would find that compared to the total number of people in the world it would represent about 25%. The other 25% would be Muslim accounting for 50% of the World population. The remainder of the 50% would be Hindu, Buddhist, Protestant of all types. Calvinists are on the decline, Pentacostals and Mormons are on the incline.

You need to do some research on comparative percentage numbers over time. Look at what percentage Catholicism is among Christians and in the world at large, both in America and in global terms. See what that’s like using the most recent census reports- most of them will be 2010. Then compare that to what you see in 2000, and in 1990, and in 1980, and in 1950. And in 1900. Then maybe do 1800. Figure out what direction things are going in. You’ll see the same things I do. You’ll see a global shift in Christianity over the course of the 20th century. You’ll see that it started the century 80% white and ended it 45% white. You’ll find out who’s Catholic and who’s non-Catholic among those not-white people, many of whom represent some of the fastest growing populations in the world. And ultimately, you’ll wind up seeing a trend over the past 50 and a general idea of where that’s going in the next 50. No matter what you do, I don’t think you’ll be able to come up with any legitimate reason to think Protestants and Independents don’t strengthen their positions at #2 and #3 within Christianity while Catholicism loses more market share and falls below 50% of Christianity’s total. Far as that last part’s concerned, it doesn’t look like it’ll take anywhere near 50 years, either. You’ll be extremely lucky if Catholicism’s still at 50% by 2020.

It’s a gradual kind of thing, and any kind of significant change takes at least 10 years to really be noticeable on this kind of scale. But you do get an idea of what kind of direction Catholicism’s going in. Numerically, it’s going up- slowly. Percentage-wise, it’s going down- slowly. Directionally, it’s moving south- pretty quickly, actually. That is a large and very significant shift we’re looking at, and it’s actually happening for Protestants and Independents along with Catholics.

I could not imagine the notion of being Protestant in any way or even trying to decide confessional vs nonconfessional.

Well, I couldn’t imagine being Catholic in any way. There’s a lot of reasons why I wouldn’t want to be and a couple that say why I can’t be, but that doesn’t mean I ignore what’s happening with other Christians just because they aren’t exactly like me. Plus, like I said, it’s a competition out there. It’s kind of like an election, and it has to do with who’s going to rule over Christianity on a global scale and how that’s going to work. If you go into that kind of competition unprepared, you might as well be planning to lose.

I would like to know what it is you perceive “the gospel” to be. Is it Matthew, Mark, Luke or John?

By Gospel I mean the proclamation of the redemption preached by Jesus and the Apostles, which is the central content of Christian revelation.

Surely you’re familiar with this use of the word. It’s practically synonymous with, what was it EzraJacob said earlier…“the true way to Christ.” And unless I’m very much mistaken, EzraJacob is currently under the impression that Protestants either ignore the whole deal or have changed it to such an extent that we’re preaching a different gospel.

You’re familiar with Galatians 1, right? To some extent? A letter from Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to a number of early Christian communities in Galatia, a Roman province in central Anatolia. This is a portion of Galatians 1.

I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.

When the Christians in Galatia read the first part of this letter, what’s the likely number of people that would have expressed confusion at this? How many of them wanted to know if Paul was talking about Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John, and even if he did pick just one, why would he say “a different gospel- not that there is another one”? Come on, Paul, we all know there’s 4 gospels! That’s clearly not just one!

It astonished Paul that so many in Galatia so quickly turned to “a different gospel.” What astonishes me is the fact that you don’t seem to be particularly familiar with the way “gospel” is being used there.

 

[Cat]

I’d like to get back to the OP.

The OP proposes the theory that many Catholics convert to Protestantism because they don’t understand the historicity of the Church. (these are not the exact words)

I think we need to be careful not to ascribe logical thinking to an emotional decision.

For many people, their “religion” is more centered in their emotions than in their intellect. They may be very educated about their Church, and have a good understanding of the facts.

But if it doesn’t “feel” right to them, or if they have been hurt in some way, they will walk away.

I proposed four reasons for Catholics leaving the Church, and all of them had to do with emotions. My four reasons were 1) romance 2) being hurt 3) seeking more stimulation 4) seeking better music.

I certainly agree that many Catholics do not have a correct understanding of what their Church teaches. I agree that better catechesis is desperately needed in the Church, because I agree that many Catholics are easily led away by evangelicals who have a detailed knowledge of the Bible and training in evangelizing Catholics. I agree that Catholics need to be taught the apologetics behind why we believe that the Eucharist is Jesus Christ Truly Present.

But I think that there are plenty of Catholics who, even if they had possession of all the facts, and were well-catechized, and even believed in the True Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, would STILL leave the Church and become Protestant *because they are looking to have their emotional needs met. *

We should not scoff at this, or accuse these fellow Catholics of callowness or silliness. Instead, we need to be careful to minister to the EMOTIONAL needs of Catholics.

Catholics should be taught from an early age to date CATHOLICS, not Protestants. And marriage should be nurtured in the parish by various socials and classes that help married couples strengthen their marriages.

Catholics need to be taught from an early age how to deal with Church people, including priests and religious, who hurt them or abuse them.

Parishes need to offer a variety of opportunities for Catholics to become involved with their faith and immersed in various studies, ministries, and socials and get plenty of stimulating discussion and enjoyable fellowship. There is no reason for a Catholic to be bored in their faith!

Parishes need to present the BEST music that they are capable of in their Masses. They probably still won’t come close to what the good Protestant churches are doing musically, but at least the Mass music should be excellent and those who minister in music should be well-trained and have an enthusiastic attitude.

Finally, parishes should be filled with friendly people overflowing with Christian love. A lot of flaws in churches can be made up for when there is true love that is not just felt, but demonstrated through actions. I can put up with a poor Mass musician when I KNOW the musician personally and know that his/her life is full of Christian good works and a strong testimony. I can put up with one hurtful person in the Church when there are hundreds of others who are kind and loving.

 

[Cat]

BTW, I asked my husband the OPs question. Here is his answer.

People leave the Catholic Church to become Protestants for two reasons. Either they do not understand what the Catholic Church teaches, OR they do understand what the Cathlic Church teaches.

 

[CaptCrunch73]

I would agree and say its mostly because of their lack of knowledge of the history regarding the Catholic Church and therefore not knowing their faith.

This is certainly the case for me, I left for a bit then came back. Study of Church history as well as reading and understanding the Bible brought me back.

 

[CaptCrunch73]

BTW, I asked my husband the OPs question. Here is his answer.

People leave the Catholic Church to become Protestants for two reasons. Either they do not understand what the Catholic Church teaches, OR they do understand what the Cathlic Church teaches.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

You’re actually in the minority among Catholic converts from Protestantism. The majority of people like you wind up being Protestant again within two years of completing their time in RCIA and being baptized into the CC.

Do you have any resources to support the above statement? I converted from Protestantism to Catholicism in 1985.

 

[CopticChristian]

It’s still growing numerically, but then again what isn’t, look at global population growth as a whole. Catholicism is losing percentage points, though, and it’s losing them within Christianity and against the global backdrop as well. Catholicism still has just a bit over 50% of the market share, but that’s been dropping and it will continue to slide.

You need to do some research on comparative percentage numbers over time.

 

[Curious_Seed]

Luther was an Augustinian monk. Luther married a nun. Luther translated the Bible and added a word “alone” so that a passage would read “by Faith alone”. Luther criticized and was ready to dispose of the book of James, Revelation and others. I was interested to know if Luther was Neurotic. This I do not know. I have read much of his hated spew that he provided over time. He was a deeply troubled man.

Denominations are a Protestant phenomenon. It is not proper to consider The Catholic Church a denomination. Descartes, Jesus Christ, Martin Luther and Jim Jones have one thing in common. They were all men. If you happen to have a Christian belief then we would say Jesus was the God/man. This would mean that Descartes, Luther and Jim Jones were created by God and you are dialoguing about the creation and the creator. If that makes sense to you then wow. Whatever Luther, Descartes and Jones did it was in the context of creature.

Jesus was not a reformer. Take a look at the conversion of Paul. If you do not know where that is try the book of Acts. Paul as you know was the student of Gamaliel, the greatest Rabbi that ever lived. Paul knew the Old Covenant and the Old Testament like the back of his hand. Note that Paul was blinded and when he was converted like scales falling from his eyes he saw the New Covenant. If you read the writings of Paul he says nothing in the way of reform. What he says is that the Old Covenant and Old Testament need to been seen in a different light. Jesus does exactly the same thing. Wonder who Paul got his teaching methods from? The letter to the Romans & Hebrews is a clear indication that Paul is reaching out to the Jews to aid them in understanding what they know and to shed light on their darkness. This is not reform. This is explanation and education.

The Old Covenant had a genealogy and you will routinely see the heritage of many. Paul summarizes this by use of Adam, Abraham, Moses, David, Jesus. The New Testament has a genealogy of Jesus. Genealogy and heritage for validity is paramount in proving to the Jews who Jesus was. It had nothing to do with who was their first. It was proof that Jesus fulfilled the entire requirement for the anticipated person with the proper genealogy. The heritage of the Old Covenant was key in explaining to Israel where they came from.

The Queen of England has a heritage to establish her royal blood line. It has nothing to do with who was here first. The Catholic Church has a heritage. It is the Israel of God with a pedigree that can be traced back to Jesus & the Apostles. What was true then is true now.

In Mark 1:15 Jesus says “repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand”. The word repent is “metanoeite” in the Greek and what it means is this…CHANGE YOUR MIND. Now if you consider that all Jesus was saying was to change your mind, not start a new religion, not who was here first and you consider that Paul was not so much converted but had a change of mind to see the Old Covenant in a new way, your outline of reform makes no sense.

So my dear brother I say to you “change your mind for the Kingdom of God is at hand” what was true then is true now. I will keep you in my prayers.

Are you saying because Martin Luther was a sinner, he has no relevance?

Denomination means subgroup.

Catholicism is a subgroup or denomination of Christianity.

Jesus Christ, Martin Luther, and Jim Jones were reformers.

Thank you, for keeping me in your prayers.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Are you saying because Martin Luther was a sinner, he has no relevance?

Denomination means subgroup.

Catholicism is a subgroup or denomination of Christianity.

Jesus Christ, Martin Luther, and Jim Jones were reformers.

Thank you, for keeping me in your prayers.

I’ve heard that ‘outside’ view of the Catholic Church before. Catholic is an adjective for Christian, not a subgroup or denomination. Protestantism is made up of denominations of the Catholic Church, which was the sole Church for over a thousand years.

 

[CopticChristian]

I’ve heard that ‘outside’ view of the Catholic Church before. Catholic is an adjective for Christian, not a subgroup or denomination. Protestantism is made up of denominations of the Catholic Church, which was the sole Church for over a thousand years.

I am not sure that I have ever heard of your definition of denomination. I agree with the sole Church. A denomination is as follows:

•A large group of religious congregations united under a common faith and name and organized under a single administrative and legal hierarchy.

I believe it is an interesting way to look at it however it is difficult to compute or comprehend. Did you make this up?

 

[504Katrin]

not even sure if protestants even have a hierarchy. Not sure but I believe they split from Rome, too.

I know for sure though from a friend of mine that there’s no hierachry at their church in regards to, well, basically everything really. They don’t go to confession but confess all by themselves in prayer. Everyone in church is equal to the priest which means anyone could distribute the host at mass, or better, the bread as I’ve heard that they get bread. My friend does believe in the presence of Christ in the Eucharist though which is a great thing. However, she doesn’t pray to our Holy Mother, which is sad imo as She can be a great help.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

I am not sure that I have ever heard of your definition of denomination. I agree with the sole Church. A denomination is as follows:

•A large group of religious congregations united under a common faith and name and organized under a single administrative and legal hierarchy.

I believe it is an interesting way to look at it however it is difficult to compute or comprehend. Did you make this up?

No, it might have been a clumsy way of saying that all Protestant Churches came through the Catholic Church. My understanding is that which it came from is the whole.

 

[CopticChristian]

Are you saying because Martin Luther was a sinner, he has no relevance?

Denomination means subgroup.

Catholicism is a subgroup or denomination of Christianity.

Jesus Christ, Martin Luther, and Jim Jones were reformers.

Thank you, for keeping me in your prayers.

Martin Luther was a sinner. He was a monk. He led people astray. I suppose that is relevant.

Catholicism is a subgroup to what?

You believe Jesus was a reformer. Define reformer so I may understand what you mean a reformer to be.

You do not identify your beliefs and it makes me wonder what your perspective might be. Do you identify yourself as Christian? If so, then Orthodox, Catholic, Protestant?

 

[CopticChristian]

It astonished Paul that so many in Galatia so quickly turned to “a different gospel.” What astonishes me is the fact that you don’t seem to be particularly familiar with the way “gospel” is being used there.

You provide no reference that anyone can refer to. It is your opinion. Protestants in general make sweeping generalizations and provide no support for their opinion in my experience. I asked you to specifically spell out what you mean by the gospel and you choose not to.

These long winded dialogues of no substance prove nothing and sway no one.

Start with based on the following…website, data and where you got it, I then conclude the following percentages. That might get someones attention.

Start with…I believe the gospel to be…and this is what I tell people it is…and then we can dialogue. This is not a dialogue with typho the jew, this is just you and I talking.

 

[Jim_Dandy]

:

Denomination means subgroup.

Catholicism is a subgroup or denomination of Christianity.

Random House Webster’s College Dictionary: denominate - to give a name to; denote;

The term denomination in religion means to break away from an original named entity and name oneself something else.

The Catholic Church is the nomination (the original named entity) from which all others have ultimately broken away and given themselves another name. It is in no way a “subgroup” or “denomination.” It is the Mother Church is all Christendom.

Jim Dandy

 

[EzraJacob]

Believe it or not, it was a Catholic on this forum that initially brought this to my attention. I started a thread inquiring about the number of Tiber swimmers that currently reside in America, and a Catholic member of CAF mentioned this relevant piece of data. If you go look at the thread, you’ll see that I didn’t make a big deal about it at the time. But I remembered it and verified it as best I could later on, and it turns out that actually is the way it is. It was kind of hard to find, though, and I don’t have any of the sources on hand right now.

If you’d been just a little less demanding, I might have told you I’ll do my best to retrace my steps and get you the information this weekend. But since you went with the “Where is the proof of this?” approach,** I’m more inclined to tell you go find it yourself.** It’s not a big deal, and it’s exactly what I eventually did.

Lol I am not demanding. But with debate, you should always be able to prove what you claim. It is not up to I to find the information to make you sound credible, but believe it or not, it is your job to make yourself credible.

 

[Jim_Dandy]

Another reason Catholics leave the Church, which I don’t think has been mentioned (?) is to spite their parents. When there is conflict in the family, offspring often want to hurt their parents, or “get even” with them, and the best way to do it in a Catholic family is to leave the Church. This was the finding of a sociological study I read long ago.

Jim Dandy

 

[Tony888]

This continues to be the trend in my evaluation of numbers. Catholicism continues to grow. It has been rumored that when white europeans abandoned the Church for another Gospel Our Lady of Guadalupe appeared and accounted for as many conversions in North America to equal the exodus to the new religion of white europeans.
.

 

[CopticChristian]

Random House Webster’s College Dictionary: denominate - to give a name to; denote;

The term denomination in religion means to break away from an original named entity and name oneself something else.

The Catholic Church is the nomination (the original named entity) from which all others have ultimately broken away and given themselves another name. It is in no way a “subgroup” or “denomination.” It is the Mother Church is all Christendom.

Jim Dandy

I do not believe in Sola Scriptura or Sola Dictionary. I believe in history, the truth and what was true yesterday is true today. Changing of the times and defining a word does not cause me to change my belief.

I believe in One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church. Nestorius, Pelagius, Arius & others were not denominations. The new religion formulated by white Europeans that included Luther, Calvin, Knox, Zwingli and others was an opinion that caused separation. The notion of denomination after 1600 is no different than prior to 1600. The usage of the word denomination is by virtue of division and dissent within the new religion formulated by white Europeans.

Euthanasia is murder. I am not obligated to follow the dictionary definition. These definitions are defined by usage. Denomination as it is known and spoken of today applies to dissent. The One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church exists by Covenant and not dissent. Denomination is applied to those that dissent. I am not obligated to apply denomination to the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church.

Denomination, from a Protestant website.

The Greek equivalent to “denomination” is “HAIRESIS”, it is translated in our English Bibles as either “sect” or “heresy”. It means “An opinion, then, a party” (Bullenger’s Lexicon) W.E. Vine defines “HAIRESES” a division developed or brought about by an issue” The word appears among the works of the flesh in Galatians 5:19-21 and has a marginal definition of “parties”.

Euthanasia

1. The act or practice of ending the life of an individual suffering from a terminal illness or an incurable condition, as by lethal injection or the suspension of extraordinary medical treatment.
2. A quiet, painless death.

 

[CopticChristian]

No, it might have been a clumsy way of saying that all Protestant Churches came through the Catholic Church. My understanding is that which it came from is the whole.

This notion “came through” suggests that as many of this new religion contend that it always existed and sprang forth at a certain time as it was suppressed. Thus you have Martyrs Mirror and Foxes Book of Martyrs and Noble Army of Heretics all suggesting, wrongly and stupidly, that these are the Protestants that emerged in 1600.

Would you say that Pelagius, Arius and other came through or broke off?