Catholic Traditon vs Science - are we looking deep enough

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First of all, let me precede my comments by saying that I haven’t seen the film, but have read a lot about its contents, and am going to see it within the next month.

I think religious people are being guided to focus on this issue, but it is clearly a false line of reasoning.

Religious people are getting confused about what these atheist scientists’ themselves are claiming is science and what isn’t. This is the perfect example of building up the straw man argument. These atheist scientists very well know what is the dividing line between science and philosophy, and they are not “masquerading fraud” in the slightest, unless you incorrectly presuppose that they are only allowed to talk about science in these type of forums.

Like I said, being able to discern what is science and what is philosophy is not something that Catholic individuals on this forum have a monopoly on.

Also, you can’t have your religious philosophy and then just choose whatever pieces of science that you would like that supports it. These atheist scientists aren’t calling out religious people for purely the actions of trying their hands at the proving of Creationist or I.D. areas by using science, but time and time again because they are doing the science wrong, and then parading it as good science. Science has a monopoly on what is good science.

But on the flip side, the religious, DON’T have a monopoly on what is good philosophy. But that isn’t even what the religious are criticizing these atheist scientists on, but on just the fact that they are USING philosophy in their arguments.

Atheists also consider these life processes as spectacular.

Besides the fact that these individuals were coerced under false pretenses to speak, they have been quoted afterward that their views were chopped up and misrepresented to suit the filmmakers’ beliefs.

But even without that, the alleged “pompousness” says nothing about their arguments. And the alleged “foolishness” is very debatable.

Hopefully this isn’t the tired old eugenics-Darwin-Nazi connection argument again. THe logic usually goes that anything that can be somehow linked to Nazism can ONLY be a bad thing. Hopefully, you can see the flaw in that logic.

I think it is wrong that there have been scientists who just have certain beliefs being repressed, however, I usually haven’t heard all the specifics behind how much of that was going into their work, and it could be argued that not all scientists will ever truly be allowed to have free reign on their work for practical administrative purposes. With that said, you should also read up on the examples of Creationist/ID administrators firing people who wanted to teach evolution in their schools, or firing those who were against not teaching it.
Most fundamentalist schools require loyalty oaths that nothing will be taught that is counter to a literal interprestation of the bible. Those atheists who have an agenda, and some no doubt do, love to see people bogged down in this no win argument. Science goes on, while fundie Catholics and protestants waste their time and money arguing about creationism and ID. And of course don’t spend time fighting real problems in the world.Our fundie friends of course always miss the fact that their stubborn adherence to nonsense is always conterproductive. Too funny.
 
I find that surprising. I can find many weaknesses in the theory.

Here’s just one of many items that expose a serious weakness in the theory.

msnbc.msn.com/id/13342029/

A search on “Gansus yumenensis missing link” would show more similar items.
So there were Gansus yumenensis living during the Albian stage of the Cretaceous period. I read the following article, and found it extremely lame: darwinism-watch.com/index.php?git=makale&makale_id=1445

If how an animal is configured works well, then it isn’t going to change so much.

“It had most modern bird features, with exceptions such as its clawed wingtips and its lack of hollow bones, both of which may have impaired its flight slightly.”
(From wikipedia)

Are you implying that you don’t think that the Gansus could have evolved fast enough from animals in the Triassic and Jurassic to exist by the early Cretaceous, but then wonder how it could somehow have stayed much less changed after that? Well, evolution doesn’t have to work linearly.

See the following first paragraph of this criticism section:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punctuated_equilibrium#Criticism
 
“Expelled” connects atheism and Darwinism with no missing link, one of the film’s two major flashpoints.
Darwinism is a specific evolutionary theory that excludes everything but material processes in the design of all life forms. No Intelligent Design allowed.
“What’s driving it is Darwinism is a foundational principle - scientific validation of secularism, atheism, liberalism - and that it strikes at the core of who they are,” said Mathis.
“Secondarily, these scientists are the high priests of the biggest question ever asked. They have all the authority, knowledge, power, funding,” continued Mathis. “This is ground they own exclusively. They look down their elitist noses at the unwashed ignorant religious masses and scoff. That’s why they respond with such extreme hostility. They are very concerned that if this monolith cracks, then the whole thing could crash.”
This stuff is hilariously wrong.
One complaint Darwinist scientists interviewed for “Expelled” have not lodged is that the filmmakers applied Michael Moore cut-and-paste editing to make them look bad. The film includes many of their long, uninterrupted thoughts.
That’s also part of their problem.
Interesting. I’ll have to see it for myself.
 
Here’s a short video of Dawkins and Myers giving some brief impressions on some of the events surrounding the film. In no way is it a logical critique (I’m sure that will come later if they feel it is necessary), so it must not be looked at in that light. It is more like they are reviewing it like Ebert & Roeper might, but they don’t talk about the film so much as they discuss the events surrounding the making of it.

They mention some very interesting info about the movie using xvivo.net’s scientific animation, but with a new Creationist/ID commentary instead of the original’s.

video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8322479909149561062
 
Well, evolution doesn’t have to work linearly.
The fact that it cannot be predicted how evolution is going to work is clearly a weakness in the theory.

In the case of the Gansus yumenensis, is was virtually identical to a modern duck – living among dinosaurs. Darwinian theory claims that dinosaurs evolved into birds – so, supposedly this all happened prior to that time and then the birds did not change for another 100 million years. The Gansus yumenensis has all the same features as modern birds do.
If how an animal is configured works well, then it isn’t going to change so much.
Again, I find that extremly imprecise and an after-the-fact claim. There is no scientific consensus on how the Gansus yumenensis evolved or at what speed.

But to simply say that evolution sometimes happens fast, sometimes slow or sometimes not at all is to render the theory extremely weak and ill-defined. The same supposed mechanism that produces an amazing diversity of complex and interworking parts of organisms, also will cause zero changes in a species for a period of 100 million years – well after other species have gone extinct. The environment itself has changed in many ways since that time so it’s not reasonable to conclude that the species was “perfectly adapted and therefore didn’t need to evolve”.

This also says nothing about mutations that supposedly could have improved various features of the species – but none of those mutations can be found. The bird is the same as modern birds – 100 million years later.

There are many examples like that. I’ve posted items on beetles that are supposedly 300 million years older than dinosaurs, but which look exactly like modern beetles.

Also, just recently, I posted something on the so-called evolution of peacock’s feathers. The standard evolutionary theory on how they evolved was refuted by observed evidence.
 
I watched an interesting show on PBS about a month ago regarding a scientist that was able to fabricate bone so that it appeared to be from a period prehistoric. He created a fake archelogical site and threw the bone in… Then he managed to lure one of his most hated collegues to the area and that man spent the rest of his life believing that he had discovered a missing link ( hip bone) Whenever I come across these discussions about Darwin and evolution, I always get the same feeling. There are so many holes in his Theory and I repeat Theory that any form of deduction, detective work, or logic would make any scientist laugh at himself for believing it. But people seem compelled to believe in it even to the point of replacing as the “Intelligent Designer” or “Master Architect” of the universe. Where in the devil is the primortial material and shouldnt there be some remnant of the material around today? Shouldn’t there be some wierd creature spinning out of this primortial pond every once in a while that is completely different or notably new? I have seen some calculations regarding the odds that life could kickstart itself, shouldn’t this kickstart, in spite of the odds against it happening again, reoccur randomly and even sporadically to propogate new creatures, organisms, and so on and even replace those that have become extinct. Well, these things clearly are not occurring but in general they don’t make sense without the idea of a Master Creator. Materials in the right combination dont simply bump into eachother randomly for millions of years and all of the sudden you have this perfect pool of gook that some salamander comes rolling out of. Its garbage, its just plane stupid. The odds against are incredible and the chance of a winning combination reflect the likelyhood of a person playing ping pong with a human hair strand’s expectation of even getting the ball across the net. It is simply impossible without a creative God that breathes life into the universe and designs all things.

I am not completely conviced that Darwin did not create this same type of hoax to perpetuate his own fame. The proofs he does provide are not overwhelming evidence or scienctific deduction. They are just a bunch of theories linked together based on some superficial observations of animals.

Had Darwin lived long enough he might have grown another arm out of his gludeous maximus so that he could scratch his buttock more easily…I think he is the greatest prankster of all time.
 
Materials in the right combination dont simply bump into eachother randomly for millions of years and all of the sudden you have this perfect pool of gook that some salamander comes rolling out of. Its garbage, its just plane stupid.
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Although you’ve misspelled the word, I presume you mean “plain” stupid. And that’s precisely what your characterization of evolution is. No biologist argues for the caricature you have posted. You need to learn what the theory of evolution is and how to articulate it accurately before you will have earned the right to criticize it to educated audiences.
 
The fact that it cannot be predicted how evolution is going to work is clearly a weakness in the theory.
I didn’t say that it can’t be predicted, but that it isn’t always linear. However, prediction would seem to be difficult because there are so many variables, and I am not aware of the latest and greatest information in that area to know its feasibility. I don’t think it is a weakness, however, because evolution can clearly be simulated with computers to that of a similar complexity, just as pedagogical examples, if not as full fledged models.

You should learn about genetic algorithms and how they work. I’ve programmed a very basic genetic algorithm in the past that does very similar things compared to evolution, but to solve a problem across a different domain. It really helps to actually see something in action like that.
In the case of the Gansus yumenensis, is was virtually identical to a modern duck – living among dinosaurs. Darwinian theory claims that dinosaurs evolved into birds – so, supposedly this all happened prior to that time and then the birds did not change for another 100 million years. The Gansus yumenensis has all the same features as modern birds do.
Your logic here is completely flawed.

First of all, the Gansus yumenensis didn’t have hollow bones, just as one example, so it wasn’t “virtually identical” to a modern duck or have “all the same features”. Birds did change for another 100 million years, some species more, some species less. We don’t have the Gansus yumenensis species anymore, it is extinct, so of course there were changes.

This claim of yours that it was identical to a modern duck is based on scientists, who support evolution, telling you what they thought it looked like, based on some bones, so you are clearly taking one scientific discovery among all the excavations, and using the scientific guesses that suit you, but then dismissing a stronger scientific theory that they support and use in their work.

For this individual case here, they don’t know what the soft tissue looked like, for example, they are just making their best guesses based on the evidence. You just see that artists’ rendering of the animal, and say “man, that thing looks like a duck” and you haven’t even looked at the evidence yourself. But you will eat the evidence right up if it suits your view of the Bible more, but not if it fits the greater evidence based theory of evolution.

Second of all, species evolve at different rates, and so species will be at different levels of evolutionary development and live together during the same time frames. It doesn’t work like how you said, that either you have “dinosaurs” or you have “birds”, and that they can’t live together. The word “dinosaur” refers to a vast number of vastly differing animals, which lived across hundreds of millions of years, and each species developed and evolved at a different rate.

The Gansus yumenensis evolved from much earlier dinosaurs, (and could even be considered a kind of dinosaur, like birds today have been been) and then coexisted with later dinosaurs.

In the same way, humans evolved from lesser primates, but lesser primates still live today. Other more extreme examples are that bacteria still lives today, jellyfish still live today, and crocodiles still live today. Just because one species moves ahead, doesn’t mean that others don’t stay behind evolutionarily, but still live during the same time frame.

Therefore, your simplistic idea that you can either have birds or you can have dinosaurs, but not at the same time, is completely flawed.
Again, I find that extremly imprecise and an after-the-fact claim. There is no scientific consensus on how the Gansus yumenensis evolved or at what speed.
Based only on your lack of knowledge are you making these claims.
But to simply say that evolution sometimes happens fast, sometimes slow or sometimes not at all is to render the theory extremely weak and ill-defined. The same supposed mechanism that produces an amazing diversity of complex and interworking parts of organisms, also will cause zero changes in a species for a period of 100 million years – well after other species have gone extinct. The environment itself has changed in many ways since that time so it’s not reasonable to conclude that the species was “perfectly adapted and therefore didn’t need to evolve”.
You clearly don’t understand how evolution works, and you clearly didn’t even read the wikipedia paragraph that I linked you to.
This also says nothing about mutations that supposedly could have improved various features of the species – but none of those mutations can be found. The bird is the same as modern birds – 100 million years later.
It isn’t the same, this is a straw man argument.
There are many examples like that. I’ve posted items on beetles that are supposedly 300 million years older than dinosaurs, but which look exactly like modern beetles.
Evolutionary theory has no problem with that.
Also, just recently, I posted something on the so-called evolution of peacock’s feathers. The standard evolutionary theory on how they evolved was refuted by observed evidence.
I read about that too, and just because their previous idea was wrong about peacock’s feathers doesn’t mean creationism is right. The peacock example still fits firmly within the context of evolutionary theory, it just occurred due to other factors than what they had thought. We don’t have to explicitly define how every transition of every evolution of a species that has happened for evolutionary theory to be understood or verified.

You can keep focusing on the small number of exceptions to the rule, and I will continue to focus on the vast number of examples that fit within the context of the rule.
 
Will lau dee dau. I didnt realslize thes furum wis fer eleetists winkles an hi-brow wizbangs.

Tell me, did you understand what that meant? Were you able to gather the just of the statement in spite of my poor spelling? The theory of evolution is not rocket science and its principals are well spent in the sciences of basic education and collegiate.

Sorry everyone, I am not bright enough to participate. Evolution depicted in all of my course work has presumed and stated as possible some organism being jump started at some point in a primordial pond, kick started by a bolt of lightning, spun into existence by its on centrifugal force (boy that was a big word I almost fainted).

Case in point, we can see the attitude placed on someone who has a graduate science degree and spells a word incorrectly once every coon’s age and now I have been expelled because my challenges do not meet the standard of one person.

Do you require a PHD (piled high and deep) to speak in this forum? Is there a special hand signal or can I just goose step my way into your heart?

The evolution and Darwinist theories are not rocket science. I think that Expelled has hit the nail right on the head. That’s my opinion. Tough Darts.

Expelled and lovin it.

David
 
The evolution and Darwinist theories are not rocket science. I think that Expelled has hit the nail right on the head. That’s my opinion. Tough Darts.Expelled and lovin it.
David
David, as I said on another thread, perhaps it would be best if – rather than whining about being expelled from academe – the partisans of Expelled founded their own universities, scholarly societies, and research journals.

That way they would not be beholden to the hegemony of “atheists,” and would be free to test their hypotheses about irreducible complexity, intelligent design, and specified complex information. If these theories are pointing to some truth, no doubt the Holy Spirit will bring it to light, and the world will be the richer for it.

Petrus
 
Although you’ve misspelled the word, I presume you mean “plain” stupid. And that’s precisely what your characterization of evolution is.
Although your spell checker passes this statement it is grammatically incorrect to use "And that’s "or "And that is” without reference to something within the sentence and should be avoided.

I understand what you mean even with my low level of comprehension but a under grade school teacher would make you rewrite it because is what they call an open ended “run on” sentence.

It should be written more properly as:
Although you’ve misspelled the word plain, (I presume you mean “plain” stupid) plain stupid is precisely what your characterization of evolution is.
There are a variety of better ways of writing this sentence but you know that already.

Now that we are being trite.
 
We are in agreement here to some extent. It might be better to find a new institutional arrangement.

My resistance to this is why should such groups have to find a new nest of research? Evolution is only a theory and not grounded in any more tangible proof or likelihood of proof as compared to the understanding of the Holy Spirit (which through the lives of the saints has been clearly stated as impossible.) and the connection to life.

Government dollars are being used for this research and certainly state universities gather a considerable share of this kind of money. I pay my share of taxes as would an ID inclined person. Why should that person have to shove off to a new place to study?
 
Government dollars are being used for this research and certainly state universities gather a considerable share of this kind of money. I pay my share of taxes as would an ID inclined person. Why should that person have to shove off to a new place to study?
David, there are precedents for this: my wife and I pay our fair share of taxes to support public schools, even though we derive no immediate personal benefit from it. We have chosen to spend tens of thousands of dollars to put our boys through Catholic education at our parish school, because we strongly value the religious context in which our children are being educated. It would be entirely unreasonable for us in a secular society to expect society to pay for the religious education of our children.

In parallel fashion, religious scientists could choose to work in private institutions to pursue religiously-inspired ID research. It is unreasonable for us in a secular society to expect society to pay for scientifc research motivated by religion.

Petrus
 
In parallel fashion, religious scientists could choose to work in private institutions to pursue religiously-inspired ID research. It is unreasonable for us in a secular society to expect society to pay for scientifc research motivated by religion.

Petrus
So government should not fund philosphical or metaphysical pursuits?
 
With regard to creation the Catholic Church has interpreted Genesis consistently for centuries.

Science has recently challenged much of this with raw data. I have immense respect for science as I have much respect for Tradition.

The question - The Holy Spirit guarantees the Church will be free from error. How could the Holy Spirit let us be so misguided for so long, and only now science is correcting these errors? Was the Holy Spirit sleeping? Why did he let us misinterpet Scripture? This makes no sense.

I submit that the Holy Spirit was not sleeping. There must be something we are missing.
Back on the OP…

This is an issue I have grappled with (and still do). Yes clearly the Church has not been error-free on scientific matters (though we should remember that questions we now consider the province of science were once considered theological questions). I also don’t believe the Spirit is asleep at the wheel.

And so it seems that the Holy Spirit does not protect the Church from all error.

The way I have come to see it is that the Holy Spirit will keep the Church *generally *on track (though all men right up to Popes have taken the Curch off-track for periods). We do see the Catholic Church responding positively to science (much more poitively than some other churches), though it’s not surprsing to find that views are significantly slower to change than in the scientific community, which is probably good on the whole (it stops the Church being blown around too much by cutting-edge science which has low levels of certainty).
 
Good question. Which agency should fund ID research – the NEA or the NSF?
The newly created Supernatural Not-Science Foundation. (SSNF)

drpmjhess as president. 😃

Hey, if the we can fund grants to whale watch in Seneca Lake in New York State we can do this.
 
The newly created Supernatural Not-Science Foundation. (SSNF)drpmjhess as president. 😃
Hey, if the we can fund grants to whale watch in Seneca Lake in New York State we can do this.
How about the NMF - National Metaphysical Foundation?

And how can there be whales in Seneca Lake? Isn’t it landlocked?

P.
 
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