Catholic turned Atheist

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The Church has always been a staunch defender of both reason and science, and the university system was started in Christian Europe. If it’s impossible to be both religious and reasonable, how do you explain people like Albert the Great? Or Robert Bellarmine? Or Thomas Aquinas? Or Augustine? Or GK Chesterton?
Maybe there is an underlying assumption of atheism among many of modern scientists, but science is not telling them that. Atheistic humanist philosophy is.
Science does tell them that, it’ demands it from them. Some scientists are just choosing not to listen.
Science by definition is to search and test. To experiment and to research.
By its very nature, science is about proving theories wrong. You set up a theory and then set out to prove your theory wrong. You have to submit it to serious scrutiny and set out to prove it wrong, and so does a panel of peers. If the theory stands up to these tests, it’s to be taken further and eventually accepted as facts.

But all that goes out the window with religion. You can’t prove it, in fact all the test you submit it to will crumble the hypothesis or religion.
Eventually, and if done with all diligence, science will disprove religion, based on the evidence it demands to claim something as truth.
 
Science does tell them that, it’ demands it from them. Some scientists are just choosing not to listen.
Science by definition is to search and test. To experiment and to research.
By its very nature, science is about proving theories wrong. You set up a theory and then set out to prove your theory wrong. You have to submit it to serious scrutiny and set out to prove it wrong, and so does a panel of peers. If the theory stands up to these tests, it’s to be taken further and eventually accepted as facts.

But all that goes out the window with religion. You can’t prove it, in fact all the test you submit it to will crumble the hypothesis or religion.
Eventually, and if done with all diligence, science will disprove religion, based on the evidence it demands to claim something as truth.
That’s scientism, not science. :rolleyes:
 
But it’s still not provable, so it remains hearsay.
It remains hearsay to one God hasn’t yet proven it to.
But love in its base form can be explained by science, evolution, natural selection and neuroscience is doing great wok to quantify these in terms of brain functions, electrical currents, etc. That is not to detract from the emotional experience, but there is a difference between emotions and faith….placing your whole life in the balance without proof.
God can prove it. He either exists or doesn’t and He can prove He does.
But that’s just it…The belief is culturally expected and that how kids get raised. You were raised in this fashion and were taught to believe certain things. You may have refined your religion on your own, converted, etc, but not many Christians turn Muslim, or vice versa. It’s ingrained into you to believe this. And usually it’s taken at face value. Even the reason given to grownups are little more than, “because it’s the way it’s always been”, or “Because the Church teaches it to be so”

We need to realize that it’s just another myth, like to Christians, Islam appears to be a myth, and to Muslims, Christianity appears to be a myth…they are all the same….no one is based on any proof, otherwiSe we’d all have to convert to that religion.
Faith can’t happen at all without conversion, early religious education of any stripe notwithstanding, and conversion is a life-long process.True faith only occurs when we come to agree with the Church, not because she says something’s true but whether or not she does. I attest to the fact that she happens to have it right.
So, basically the only way to know that there is a God is purely subjective, unquantifiable experience.
Why are you basing your whole life, and how you live it on unprovable ideas? To define it as unquantifiable by definition still requires proof to back up its claims. You are dealing with a book written by people, teaching you how to live your life, telling you to believe in God and the devil, based on what? Nothing. Hearsay. It has to be quantifiable.
If you want to demand that all truth in the universe be scientifically verifiable in order to be true-or at least in order for us to believe it is-then I might ask if you must be absolutely convinced that love is scientifically verifiable before you allow yourself to experience it.
I was one of the people who diligently searched for God for pretty much 20 years. Praying and pleading and begging for him to prove it to me, just like you mentions that He will. He didn’t. I begged for more faith, to believe, and nothing.
This is not the reason I left, but it certainly contributed to it in the end.
It’s all empty, this chase.
I have no way of comparing another persons’ diligence to my own. I had to leave faith and the Church for years before I came to trust in God and much later the CC-it was a very long journey.
 
That’s scientism, not science. :rolleyes:
Scientism? No. We want you to prove that what you claim as religious Truth to be True. You can’t. It’s not social science, or a humanitarian issue at all, it’s just unproven myths that people claim to be true, with no evidence.
To claim things are true, based on hearsay and because someone or some book says so does not make it so. If you are going to tell me that, you have to back it up.

Oh, thanks for the sarcasm at the end there…real Christian of you.
 
If the purpose of science is to study the natural world, and if God is transcendent and outside of the natural world, how can science be the appropriate venue to study God? To get to the essence of God, you need philosophy.

Your opinion about religion and the necessity of scrutinizing God according to the scientific method is identical to the opinion given in the 1973 Humanist Manifesto:
We believe, however, that traditional dogmatic or authoritarian religions that place revelation, God, ritual, or creed above human needs and experience do a disservice to the human species. Any account of nature should pass the tests of scientific evidence; in our judgment, the dogmas and myths of traditional religions do not do so. Even at this late date in human history, certain elementary facts based upon the critical use of scientific reason have to be restated. We find insufficient evidence for belief in the existence of a supernatural; it is either meaningless or irrelevant to the question of survival and fulfillment of the human race. As nontheists, we begin with humans not God, nature not deity. Nature may indeed be broader and deeper than we now know; any new discoveries, however, will but enlarge our knowledge of the natural. Humanist Manifesto II
americanhumanist.org/about/manifesto2.html
My question is, how can one scientifically prove the above statement? That the reason for our being and that of all nature, God, can be known only through the scientific method? And if it can’t be proven scientifically, isn’t your belief system just as unfounded as the Christian belief system?

Trying to elevate science to the level of religion or even a philosophy will not work. Like GK Chesterton said, science is either a tool or a toy. It’s a mistake to see it any other way.

You may not agree, but many modern Catholic-scientists see no inconsistency between science and religion and have written books about it. Thomas Dubay, Stanley Jaki, Anthony Rizzi, and Kenneth Howell are some of the contemporary ones.

amazon.com/gp/product/0898707528/ref=cm_rdp_product

amazon.com/God-Cosmologists-Stanley-L-Jaki/dp/0707305853

iapweb.org/director.htm

archive.salvationhistory.com/mission/staff/howellbio.cfm
 
Scientism? No. We want you to prove that what you claim as religious Truth to be True. You can’t. It’s not social science, or a humanitarian issue at all, it’s just unproven myths that people claim to be true, with no evidence.
To claim things are true, based on hearsay and because someone or some book says so does not make it so. If you are going to tell me that, you have to back it up.

Oh, thanks for the sarcasm at the end there…real Christian of you.
Why are you here? You aren’t accomplishing anything by incoherently lashing out at the Church with sanctimonious scientism. :rolleyes:
 
It remains hearsay to one God hasn’t yet proven it to. God can prove it. He either exists or doesn’t and He can prove He does.
And after that it will still remain hearsay if you can’t objectively supply evidence of that.
Those kinds of claims can be interpreted as any number of things. How do you even know it’s God? It could be any number of brain functions, or emotional responses…we have by no means explored or mapped the human brain in its totality. But we can’t just ascribe it to God if we don’t know how else to explain it.
Scientists can say they don’t know things.
Religion claims that they do know things that they can’t possibly know.

To label something that you can’t explain as supernatural, and then try to pass that off as proof is just not right.

Incidentally, part of my begging and pleading with God I actually asked him that even if it was a totally subjective experience, to just show me that he was out there to make me stop doubting…nothing.
Remember what the bible say about leaving the 99 sheep to come after the 1? Didn’t happen. After I realized that, the light came on for me.
God is just not there.
Faith can’t happen at all without conversion, early religious education of any stripe notwithstanding, and conversion is a life-long process. True faith only occurs when we come to agree with the Church, not because she says something’s true but whether or not she does. I attest to the fact that she happens to have it right.
But how do you prove that, even for yourself? You’ll have to admit to yourself at some stage that this is all hearsay. There is no proof of anything divine, ever. So, the more you can believe the church, the more faith you have. It’s basically saying the more I believe what other people say, the less I have to think.
“True faith comes when I agree with the church.” How do you come to agree with them? Do you accept them at face value? Or do you believe that because they proved it to you? To what degree did they prove it to you? I submit that it’s all based on hearsay, even their proof is based on tradition and word of mouth.
If you want to demand that all truth in the universe be scientifically verifiable in order to be true-or at least in order for us to believe it is-then I might ask if you must be absolutely convinced that love is scientifically verifiable before you allow yourself to experience it.
We are not equating emotional responses to religious claims stating unprovable Truths.
 
Why are you here? You aren’t accomplishing anything by incoherently lashing out at the Church with sanctimonious scientism. :rolleyes:
The OP asked why the Atheists lash out against the Cuhrch. I thought I’d supply you with first hand resopnse.
Why do yuo ask, do I threaten you?
It may be so, since the sarcasm is back.

Edit:

Are you going to tell me that this is a Catholic forum and that I’m not allowed here, or that I can’t argue with you?
If the question is posted, then I should be allowed to give some insight.

I can’t just read what Cathoclis write about Atheists and not give me first hand toughts…
 
My question is, how can one scientifically prove the above statement? That the reason for our being and that of all nature, God, can be known only through the scientific method? And if it can’t be proven scientifically, isn’t your belief system just as unfounded as the Christian belief system?
Actually that is not our view.
The above view assumes that God exist and you can know god.
Our view is that the *theory of God * and it’s claims to Truth has to be examined, put on trial and see if we can obtain evidence for the claims that they make. I’m saying that
And trying to do that will fail every time.
How do you prove that the bible is the inspired word of God? I mean prove it so that every guy off the street will believe you? You can’t. I’ll have to take it on faith.
Using reason and logic, you cannot back up any of the claims that you made as far as religion goes.

I’m posting all this to give you guys a atheist point of view. How we see the world. We use logic and reason to verify our facts. Without reason and logic facts cannot be proven, and something cannot be claimed as Truth.

You asked how we can convert and why we speak up, this is why. Apart from the hurt caused in my first post, it’s also going against also logic and reason to believe this.

That’s where I’m coming from.
 
Why are you here? You aren’t accomplishing anything by incoherently lashing out at the Church with sanctimonious scientism. :rolleyes:
Wow, I just re-read your response.
Incoherent lashing out?
Wow…that’s precious. Why are you so threatened? If you get this riled up by an anonimous poster on an internet board, then what will happen when things really get thick?

I gave my side of the story as asked in the OP.
No, Of corse, by your posts I offended you, but all this name calling and sarcasm…that’s not really doing your faith any favours you know. It’s not going to help your cause any.

If you can’t debate in an intelligent manner, than you have effectively and essentially disqualified yourself from this thread.
 
Wow, I just re-read your response.
Incoherent lashing out?
Wow…that’s precious. Why are you so threatened? If you get this riled up by an anonimous poster on an internet board, then what will happen when things really get thick?

I gave my side of the story as asked in the OP.
No, Of corse, by your posts I offended you, but all this name calling and sarcasm…that’s not really doing your faith any favours you know. It’s not going to help your cause any.

If you can’t debate in an intelligent manner, than you have effectively and essentially disqualified yourself from this thread.
You don’t offend me. I’m embarrassed for you. It’s painfully evident that you don’t understand Catholicism or science.
 
You don’t offend me. I’m embarrassed for you. It’s painfully evident that you don’t understand Catholicism or science.
More namecalling…

I did mention that I was Catholic so I do have a fair understanding of how it works. So to imply otherwise on the basis of a few quotes is just unreasonable and irrational.

The fact remains that you can’t prove any of this stuff. If you could, then there would be one world religion…

It’s still obvious from your posts, one-liners and your sarcastic remarks that you post not to debate but to inflame and offend.

I don’t understand that, honestly, but I guess having an Atheist treading on your domain is a bit jarring.
It’s ok and understandable, so don’t worry.

You can post flaming comments all you like, but the charge is still on you to prove that what you teach in Catholicism is true, based on more than a book which’s teachings cannot be proven or backed up either, or based on word of mouth traditions, going back 2000 years, with a large amount of hearsay.
 
More namecalling…

I did mention that I was Catholic so I do have a fair understanding of how it works. So to imply otherwise on the basis of a few quotes is just unreasonable and irrational.

The fact remains that you can’t prove any of this stuff. If you could, then there would be one world religion.
You haven’t demonstrated any substantive knowledge of Catholicism or science in this thread. 🤷

Your inclusion of a fallacy only proves my point. :coffeeread:
 
You haven’t demonstrated any substantive knowledge of Catholicism or science in this thread. 🤷

Your inclusion of a fallacy only proves my point. :coffeeread:
You are making less and less sense, honestly.

Can you please point this fallacy out to me? Or is this just more baiting posts.

Did you ask me to demonstrate knowledge of either? No. Your posts were all one-liners.

Honestly, this is just inconsistent and irrational babbling. When you get serious, please let me know then we can discuss matters further.
 
Sorry guys n gals, my time is up, I gotta get home now.

Talk to you soon.

BearClaw
 
More namecalling…

I did mention that I was Catholic so I do have a fair understanding of how it works. So to imply otherwise on the basis of a few quotes is just unreasonable and irrational.

The fact remains that you can’t prove any of this stuff. If you could, then there would be one world religion…

It’s still obvious from your posts, one-liners and your sarcastic remarks that you post not to debate but to inflame and offend.

I don’t understand that, honestly, but I guess having an Atheist treading on your domain is a bit jarring.
It’s ok and understandable, so don’t worry.

You can post flaming comments all you like, but the charge is still on you to prove that what you teach in Catholicism is true, based on more than a book which’s teachings cannot be proven or backed up either, or based on word of mouth traditions, going back 2000 years, with a large amount of hearsay.
Where is name calling in 1holycatholic’s post? Am I missing something, or are you just reading what you want to? And what leads you to believe that ANY of us are threatened by having an atheist post on this board?
 
The standard cosmological model of modern science describes a creation event that defies atheism and pantheism, but harmonizes with the Bible.

In 1917 the traditional schools of thought had convinced great thinkers that the Bible was untrue. In that year Albert Einstein published a paper interpreting his own general theory of relativity, making it conform to the unquestioned cosmology of his day: the static universe theory Static universe claimed that the universe is infinite in age,

During the 1920s great thinkers—Eddington, Friedmann, de Sitter, and Lemaltre—all found that solving Einstein’s field equations demanded that the universe could not be infinitely old, but that it must have had a beginning. A universe with a beginning requires a Beginner, making it impossible to reconcile, it with atheism or pantheism, while pointing most naturally to the God of the Bible. The initial reaction of the scientific community was typified by Arthur Eddington’s admission: “Philosophically, the notion of a beginning present order of Nature is repugnant to me.”

Only after Einstein had seen Hubble’s evidence for an expanding universe. (and after he had looked through Hubble’s 100-inch telescope for himself did he formally renounce his cosmological “fudge factor.” Later he wrote that its addition to his equations had been “the biggest blunder of my life.” After this, Einstein wrote not only of the necessity of a beginning, but also his desire “to know how God created the world. I am not interested in this or that phenomenon, in the spectrum of this or that element. I want to know His thought, the rest are details.”

Edwin Hubble found that the farther galaxies ( which show us the more distant past ) are retreating from us faster than the nearer galaxies, just as one would expect if the universal expansion is slowing down from an initial surge. Thus observation tells us that the universe had a beginning. Famed astronomer Robert Jastrow says: “The Hubble Law is one of the great discoveries in science: it is one of the main supports of the scientific story of Genesis.”

When Penzias and Wilson stumbled upon the microwave background radiation in 1965, they fulfilled the prediction of early big bang theorists that such a low level, universal radiation should exist. But more important, the spectrum of this cosmic radiation has since been measured to perfectly match the characteristic blackbody curve. This precise matching is difficult to reconcile with anything other than a creation event involving the entire universe.

Without an extremely hot, dense creation event, the large amount of helium evident in the universe today cannot be explained.

The fact that galaxies are distributed more densely—and quasars become abundant—the farther we look into space indicates that the universe has changed with time. These observations argue against any static or steady state theory and for a creation event.

After the COBE satellite team discovered the predicted ripple in the cosmic microwave radiation, George Smoot called these fluctuations “the fingerprints from the Maker.” Smoot draws attention not only to the fact that his team had provided more evidence for the creation event, but for a “finely orchestrated” creation event. Stephen Hawking was so impressed with this finding that he called it “the most important discovery of the century, if not of all time.”

The non-theist admits to observing behavior that can be expressed in predictable, orderly laws of nature, not arbitrary laws of nature—which raises the question, “Why are there these orderly laws of nature? Why not chaos?” The Bible believer has a supernatural explanation. Does the non-theist have a natural one?

If non theists are at a loss to, explain how something can come from nothing, then they are at a greater loss to explain how nature could come out of nothing, with all its highly specific, organized and purposeful accomplishments.

When Fred Hoyle calculated the likelihood that carbon would have precisely the required resonance by chance, he said that his atheism was greatly shaken, adding: “A common sense interpretation of the facts suggests that a super intellect has monkeyed with physics.”

Carl Sagan admits: “It is easy to see that only a very restricted range of laws of nature are consistent with galaxies and stars, planets, life and intelligence.”

Stephen Hawking cites the ratio between the masses of the proton and the electron as one of many fundamental numbers in nature. He adds: “The remarkable fact is that the values of these numbers seem to have been very finely adjusted to make possible the development of life.”
 
Cont from last post

Physicists speak of four fundamental forces in nature: gravity, electromagnetism, and the strong and weak nuclear forces. Physicist Richard Morris writes: “Every one of these forces must have just the right strength if there is to be any possibility of life.”

What are the chances that all the functional proteins necessary for life might form in one place by random events? Hoyle and Wickramasinghe calculated the odds at 1 in 10 to the 40,000, a number far removed from the realm of finite possibilities.

Nobel laureate Francis Crick (who first cracked the DNA code) has concluded, like Hoyle and a number of others, that life could not have originated here on earth by any natural process.

Experiment and calculation have led these physicists and biologists this far; but because of their refusal to consider the Biblical explanation, they have been forced to resort to the panspermia hypothesis: the idea that life’s genetic material was sent here from somewhere else.

The second law of thermodynamics tells us that the universe is wearing down, becoming less ordered, so that less energy is available for work. But no law or theory tells us anything about how the universe got into its low entropy (highly ordered) state to begin with. Roger Penrose’s calculations show that this highly ordered initial state for the universe is not something that could have occurred by chance.

‘ Our universe is precariously balanced between expansion and collapse, between an expansion force that prohibits the universe from crashing back into itself early in the expansion, and enough gravitational force so that matter can collect into galaxies rather than disperse into gases. The ratio between the universe’s actual density to the critical density is called Omega.

George Smoot says, “The most minute deviation either side of an Omega of 1 consigns our potential universe to oblivion.”

According to the findings of 20th-century physics, matter and antimatter must have been produced in equal amounts in any conversion of energy into mass associated with the creation event. But this forces physicists to acknowledge yet another finely tuned parameter to bring about our habitable universe. Particles of matter must have slightly outnumbered particles of antimatter by an extremely critical amount. Once again, it appears that a very precise selection was made.

Princeton physicist Freeman Dyson writes, “The more I exam ne the universe and the details of its architecture, the more evidence I find that the universe in some sense must have known we were coming.” NASA astronomer John O’Keefe says, “It is my view that these circumstances indicate that the Universe was created for man to live in.”

The Limits of Scientists
Those scientists who claim that science tells them something about the ultimate origins are not being quite honest, be they atheists or creationists. Science is limited by what can be known from observation of phenomena that belong to the cause-effect chain, which big bang cosmologists admit cannot be extended back before the time known as Planck time, when all the laws of nature break down near the point of singularity (the big bang).

Before this Planck moment (named after Max Planck, a pioneer of quantum physics), the particles we know today could not have existed. According to modern physics, this point occurred 10 -43 seconds after the big bang, * when the universe was an unbelievably hot point smaller than an atom.

Princeton’s influential cosmologist, Jeremiah Ostriker, states:
If’ you extrapolate back and back in time, the universe will become so dense that you will need quantum mechanics. And we know we don’t have a quantum theory of gravity. At what time does this become a serious problem? At the Planck time. So we cannot extrapolate back our current theories before the Planck time.

books.google.com/books?id=jrBwFVggcrYC&dq=rare+earth&printsec=frontcover&source=bn&hl=en&ei=S6CkSa-9HZmMsQOH_I2sAg&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=6&ct=result
 
How does one like go from being around Catholicism as a child, even going to school, to this?
Immaturity and lack of humility. It happens to plenty of us in our early twenties.

Having one’s own kids is the wake-up call that gets a lot of Catholics back into the Church.
 
Cont from last post

Physicists speak of four fundamental forces in nature: gravity, electromagnetism, and the strong and weak nuclear forces. Physicist Richard Morris writes: “Every one of these forces must have just the right strength if there is to be any possibility of life.”

What are the chances that all the functional proteins necessary for life might form in one place by random events? Hoyle and Wickramasinghe calculated the odds at 1 in 10 to the 40,000, a number far removed from the realm of finite possibilities.

Nobel laureate Francis Crick (who first cracked the DNA code) has concluded, like Hoyle and a number of others, that life could not have originated here on earth by any natural process.

Experiment and calculation have led these physicists and biologists this far; but because of their refusal to consider the Biblical explanation, they have been forced to resort to the panspermia hypothesis: the idea that life’s genetic material was sent here from somewhere else.

The second law of thermodynamics tells us that the universe is wearing down, becoming less ordered, so that less energy is available for work. But no law or theory tells us anything about how the universe got into its low entropy (highly ordered) state to begin with. Roger Penrose’s calculations show that this highly ordered initial state for the universe is not something that could have occurred by chance.

‘ Our universe is precariously balanced between expansion and collapse, between an expansion force that prohibits the universe from crashing back into itself early in the expansion, and enough gravitational force so that matter can collect into galaxies rather than disperse into gases. The ratio between the universe’s actual density to the critical density is called Omega.

George Smoot says, “The most minute deviation either side of an Omega of 1 consigns our potential universe to oblivion.”

According to the findings of 20th-century physics, matter and antimatter must have been produced in equal amounts in any conversion of energy into mass associated with the creation event. But this forces physicists to acknowledge yet another finely tuned parameter to bring about our habitable universe. Particles of matter must have slightly outnumbered particles of antimatter by an extremely critical amount. Once again, it appears that a very precise selection was made.

Princeton physicist Freeman Dyson writes, “The more I exam ne the universe and the details of its architecture, the more evidence I find that the universe in some sense must have known we were coming.” NASA astronomer John O’Keefe says, “It is my view that these circumstances indicate that the Universe was created for man to live in.”

The Limits of Scientists
Those scientists who claim that science tells them something about the ultimate origins are not being quite honest, be they atheists or creationists. Science is limited by what can be known from observation of phenomena that belong to the cause-effect chain, which big bang cosmologists admit cannot be extended back before the time known as Planck time, when all the laws of nature break down near the point of singularity (the big bang).

Before this Planck moment (named after Max Planck, a pioneer of quantum physics), the particles we know today could not have existed. According to modern physics, this point occurred 10 -43 seconds after the big bang, * when the universe was an unbelievably hot point smaller than an atom.

Princeton’s influential cosmologist, Jeremiah Ostriker, states:
If’ you extrapolate back and back in time, the universe will become so dense that you will need quantum mechanics. And we know we don’t have a quantum theory of gravity. At what time does this become a serious problem? At the Planck time. So we cannot extrapolate back our current theories before the Planck time.

books.google.com/books?id=jrBwFVggcrYC&dq=rare+earth&printsec=frontcover&source=bn&hl=en&ei=S6CkSa-9HZmMsQOH_I2sAg&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=6&ct=result
Many of your arguments are flawed (eg you misunderstand entrophy) but even if all of you arguments were correct you only compound the problem by tossing in “god.” The absence of an explanation from science does not imply the supernatural.

I had a bible class in high school in which the instructor threw all these arguments at us like “The chance of a living cell occuring… 10 to xxx power” Of course I was impressed at the time however since then I have done a good bit of reading on the subject and found that most what we were taught were either straw men arguments or simply a lack of understanding of science itself.

When science encounters a situation it cannot explain it says, It might be A,B or C but we don’t know.

Off the subject a bit are you familiar with unified field?
 
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